Transgender women (biological men) dominating women's sports

[no_name]

@Danioover9000 yeah, definitely would never enter a bathroom/changing room that has a camera inside

My point was, I understand that transgender females would also not be comfortable in a male bathroom, that is why I think a third type of bathroom makes for an easy solution.

For sports, I think it’s too hard to quantify the difference between men/women, it’s not just testosterone… women have wider hips, lower height, more fat, narrower shoulders, breasts, menstruate for 3-7 days a month… Honestly periods alone are a big obstacle for sports, periods are more often than not accompanied by severe cramps, fatigue, migraines, sore breasts, fever, menstrual cycles with all kinds of hormonal ups and downs..  many women have to take painkillers/stay in bed during their period.. even if a trans woman transitions and has the surgery before puberty (idk if there are actual cases of that) there will still be these differences/advantages in sport for them.

Of course I do understand that transgender women want to compete as well, but it would, generally, be unfair to the other women. While you can quantify differences between women, height/weight/muscle %, I do not think you can compare biological women vs. biological men that easily. 
 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by no_name

[Razard86]

7 hours ago, Godhead said:

sorry, I'm not really interested in interacting with you. You give off weird toxic vibes.

That being said the example cited is pretty silly, it was an orbital bone fracture, which happens pretty regularly in contact sports. And as far as I know, the person lost a ton of matches ever since.

Toxic vibes? So now we point to insults when you cannot even defend your position. Its funny how people who claim to want equality and justice are the first to insult others. The irony is the projection is strong in you. But continue to claim people who do not agree with your perspective as toxic. Makes perfect sense.

And an orbital fracture is in the skull and is only considered in the face because it is a little further away. Funny how you want to argue with me on the distinction between a orbital fracture and a skull fracture, but think the distinction between a ciswoman and a transwoman isn't up for debate. Anybody who disagrees gives off toxic vibes. LOL this is too much. You reveal too much. way too much.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Razard86

[Razard86]

53 minutes ago, no_name said:

@Danioover9000 yeah, definitely would never enter a bathroom/changing room that has a camera inside

My point was, I understand that transgender females would also not be comfortable in a male bathroom, that is why I think a third type of bathroom makes for an easy solution.

For sports, I think it’s too hard to quantify the difference between men/women, it’s not just testosterone… women have wider hips, lower height, more fat, narrower shoulders, breasts, menstruate for 3-7 days a month… Honestly periods alone are a big obstacle for sports, periods are more often than not accompanied by severe cramps, fatigue, migraines, sore breasts, fever, menstrual cycles with all kinds of hormonal ups and downs..  many women have to take painkillers/stay in bed during their period.. even if a trans woman transitions and has the surgery before puberty (idk if there are actual cases of that) there will still be these differences/advantages in sport for them.

Of course I do understand that transgender women want to compete as well, but it would, generally, be unfair to the other women. While you can quantify differences between women, height/weight/muscle %, I do not think you can compare biological women vs. biological men that easily. 

The funny thing is this isn't even debate worthy. We have distinctions between weight classes in sports, should we get rid of those too? We have distinctions between the Para Olympics and Regular Olympics I guess we can get rid of that too as well. If people cannot understand why these distinctions exist....I don't know what to tell them.

We understand that some people have biological advantages already but to deny the advantages people have in weight classes, and now between transwomen and cisgendered women.

What's worse every medical professional that has run tests say there is going to be an advantage. There are even Transathletes who do not agree that it is fair. Look the distinctions are there to level the playing field, if you include transathletes well....truly who knows what will happen. I guess ciswoman will have to start doing testosterone hormone trials from their youth like the West Germans of old.

[Bobby_2021]

14 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 You can be self honest and aware about the construction, but that does not translate to a significant behaviour change suddenly.

Exactly my point. And behaviour changes are not because someone went all the way to deconstruct something.

There could be mass murder in the streets and we will still see people say, "muh constructions". Yeah I know, what are you going to do about it?

[Lyubov]

trans women athletes do not make much sense competing with biological women but I really don’t care at all about sports and I think sports culture in general is absolutely ridiculous so just for the sake of inclusion I don’t really mind if they do compete with them. 

[no_name]

29 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

trans women athletes do not make much sense competing with biological women but I really don’t care at all about sports and I think sports culture in general is absolutely ridiculous so just for the sake of inclusion I don’t really mind if they do compete with them. 

Lol, if sports culture is absolutely ridiculous, then so is music, art, movies, books, computer games, science, math, etc. We should all just sit on a chair and stare at a wall all day because doing anything is stupid. 

[Lyubov]

5 minutes ago, no_name said:

Lol, if sports culture is absolutely ridiculous, then so is music, art, movies, books, computer games, science, math, etc. We should all just sit on a chair and stare at a wall all day because doing anything is stupid. 

Fair enough. I just don’t value most athletics. I value physical health and vitality but most organized sports come off kinda dumb and I can’t get into the stupid chest pumping and victory speeches. Sports can go to crap for all I care. 

[ZenAlex]

On 29/03/2022 at 3:37 AM, Leo Gura said:

Well, when you construct categories don't be surprised when they blow up in your face at some point.

"Male" and "female" were constructed categories which are now being deconstructed. So here we are. People are freaking out because they took it for granted that male and female were always constructions.

The outrage is a mechanism to maintain the constructions while pretending they were not constructions.

Ok so what do you choose to label the two main distinctions in biology separating the two halves of the population?

Man and woman are socially constructed. Male and female are obvious facts, and you see it throughout the animal kingdom.

 

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

Ok so what do you choose to label the two main distinctions in biology separating the two halves of the population?

Man and woman are socially constructed. Male and female are obvious facts, and you see it throughout the animal kingdom.

 

Everything is a construction on the meta level. All of creation is a construction. So how far do people want to play with this? The real reason that the TransAthletes are doing this is a result for a desire for acceptance, a desire to be loved. They cannot solve that issue the way they are going about it. You cannot FORCE acceptance, you cannot force integration, you cannot force love. You can be loving and through being loving acceptance comes.

But I understand the desire to not be seen as dangerous, or different, or weird, or to be rejected. But once you accept all those things in yourself the desire to force that acceptance into the outside world becomes of little consequence. Nothing wrong with pushing for changes, but I have noticed that the people who want these changes start to use the same tactics as those who disagree with them.

They label them as having phobias, or toxic, etc... not realizing they are just playing the same game as the majority. These does not lead to integration. You cannot force people or shame, or guilt them into aligning with your perspective. If you read history....it is literally a book that teaches this. 

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

On 3/27/2022 at 11:39 PM, Leo Gura said:

He was banned for calling the trans community filthy and degenerate. Paraphrasing.

   Or he was banned for hosting a streamer who was banned in the past.

https://youtu.be/zp5FVTVMhPQ

[Lyubov]

Destiny was always an edge lord clown and incredibly toxic. The type of guy that got a following for being somewhat entertaining at insulting whoever he is currently playing in a video game. Props to him though for managing to get some cash this way. He’s a unicorn in this way cause basically anyone else like him on the internet is usually a total loser. 

[Danioover9000]

@Lyubov

19 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Destiny was always an edge lord clown and incredibly toxic. The type of guy that got a following for being somewhat entertaining at insulting whoever he is currently playing in a video game. Props to him though for managing to get some cash this way. He’s a unicorn in this way cause basically anyone else like him on the internet is usually a total loser. 

   Speaking of the devil:

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Consept]

OK ive contemplated this issue after watching a bit of the debate with Destiny and i think ive got an overall understanding of it, let me know if you agree: 

Essentially there are 3 different arguments around the trans sports issue - 

1. Some trans people and advocates of trans people who believe that Trans women in this case, should be 100% recognised and accepted as real women, this of course includes being able to use bathrooms designated for women and competing with biological women in sporting events. Anything less than this is taken as saying trans women are not real women. 

2. At the other end you have usually more conservative people, who dont accept trans women as women and dont think people should be able to change genders. In fact its seen as a degradation of society that they are even accepted and celebrated in society, its almost seen as an attack on masculinity. They of course dont believe trans women should be able to compete against women in sports. 

3. The rest is those who are in between, they either dont really care too much about trans people anymore than anyone else or they even support them and theyre right to be, but on the sports issue they dont believe that trans women should compete with cis women because of biological advantages. 

The moderate 3rd view for me is the most logical, there is a huge difference between a trans woman and a cis woman in terms of advantages, a quick example is that the number 1 ranked 100m sprint time by a women since records began would not even got that woman into the top 10,000 mens times, which means essentially you could have the 10,000th best time as a man and if you became a woman you would literally have the best time in the history of women. Theres countless examples but i think that is the most stark. 

So heres where the issues arise, for the most part trans women can live there life as women without too much trouble, but the competition argument will hit against this so if the 1s are going to keep their argument they have to contend with this issue. The 2s use this issue as a way to justify why trans people shouldnt exist, although they are right about the specific competing issue the rest of their argument falls short, which is why they tend dwell and over exaggerate the issue. 

The 3s are not trying to sneak in any ulterior argument they are just arguing directly that trans women shouldnt compete with biological women. What ive seen happening in the Destiny debate as well as others is that the 1s try to paint the 3s out to be 2s. This is simply not the case especially in terms of Destiny who i think argues against 2s constantly about things like trans rights. If he got banned it wouldve been because they successfully managed to label him as a 2. 

The solution in my opinion, is to change how trans people are thought of in general but especially when it comes to 1s. Trans women are different from biological women, theres no way around that, they are distinct as trans women in that their biology is different, their life experience is different etc. But the key is that what they are as trans women is completely valid and is a category in of itself and so should be fully respected and accepted, their human experience is completely different to cis-gendered people and vice versa. Because this view is not taken by 1s it leads to these types of debates which can only exist if you hold the belief that they are indivisible from cis gendered women. 

[Carl-Richard]

42 minutes ago, Consept said:

If he got banned it wouldve been because they successfully managed to label him as a 2. 

or in the words of Mr. Girl: Transcel Culture 

[vizual]

It’s very annoying when you are debating or discussing with someone and they try to discredit your argument by calling you a neocon, facist, altrighter, or whatever. It’s so close minded.

[Lyubov]

4 hours ago, vizual said:

It’s very annoying when you are debating or discussing with someone and they try to discredit your argument by calling you a neocon, facist, altrighter, or whatever. It’s so close minded.

It has its place sometimes to call people this when you can tell they aren’t arguing in good faith but the thing is political discourse is so fucked today that all these labels and insults are overused and things always spiral down. There isn’t really even a much of a middle ground these days. There are only echo chambers filled with group think and any deviation leads to being labeled one of the above or some equivalent like libtard, commie, etc. 

[Arcangelo]

''This is out of control''

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@no_name  and @Lyubov

On 3/30/2022 at 9:41 AM, no_name said:

Lol, if sports culture is absolutely ridiculous, then so is music, art, movies, books, computer games, science, math, etc. We should all just sit on a chair and stare at a wall all day because doing anything is stupid. 

 

On 3/30/2022 at 9:48 AM, Lyubov said:

Fair enough. I just don’t value most athletics. I value physical health and vitality but most organized sports come off kinda dumb and I can’t get into the stupid chest pumping and victory speeches. Sports can go to crap for all I care. 

   I think, in the context of combat sports, general sports, and the other context which is art, I think it's the major difference of collaboration. In the art field, there's a greater and more interconnected collaboration and team work, like making a movie, or engineering, or graphic novel with music and story, vs the lower collaboration that sports like boxing, combat caged sports like the UFC, provides. Combat and other sports are much higher in competitiveness than with collaboration.  

[vizual]

On 4-4-2022 at 11:13 PM, Danioover9000 said:

 I think, in the context of combat sports, general sports, and the other context which is art, I think it's the major difference of collaboration. In the art field, there's a greater and more interconnected collaboration and team work, like making a movie, or engineering, or graphic novel with music and story, vs the lower collaboration that sports like boxing, combat caged sports like the UFC, provides. Combat and other sports are much higher in competitiveness than with collaboration.  

Never read so much nonsense in my life. If there's one field that is filled with pretentious, abusive, drug addicted narcissists it's the art field.

[Bobby_2021]

After thinking on this issue and putting myself in the shoes of different people, and listening to multiple perspectives I realised that sports is all about winning.

You play to win. Lia did what's she had to do to win. She is a champion. That's all there is to the story. Sports is meant to be brutally competent & ruthless.

As for women arguing for fairness, I would say this is an unfair world, where genetics matters the most in sports (and nearly everything else) and those who win will have the best genetics. Biological men have better genetics than all other genders. So the winners will be biological men, in literally almost everything.

So if you are in sports, do what it takes to win just like Lia did. More power to her.

Whining about unfairness is not sportsmanship.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Bobby_2021