On mine & leo's spiritual path

[Breakingthewall]

I don't understand the discussion. I think it's obvious. spirituality has always existed but really very few reach something other than substituting some beliefs for others. the ego barrier is insurmountable for most. Tolle and others repeat to you a thousand times truths that they have realized spontaneously, but they don't tell you how to get to them...because they don't know. for them it has been something natural, something that is not normally the case. leo appears, and puts a card on the table, dangerous and effective: psychedelics. specifically 5 meo. watch out! We are talking about dynamite, not about repeating mantras. and besides... he says that he has done 5 meo in maximum dose 30 days in a row. ??. and is it strange for someone to talk about the dangers of spirituality? please, if we are talking about practices that would land the average person in a mental institution. Obviously it's dangerous. but it is effective! Do you want to break down the walls? here you have the plastic explosive. Use it carefully because if you put too much, your breath stops and you die. Ah, another advice: better do it alone. well, some danger if there is imo. And big bravery too

Edited February 6, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Nahm]

34 minutes ago, FlyingLotus said:

I didn't see your question.  I don't think those teachers are only motivated by money, but money and marketing probably plays a part of it.  They're probably motivated by many things.

Respecting the reply and the honesty & candor here. 

39 minutes ago, mememe said:

@Nahm one of the reasons i got hooked by actualized.org is because of the lax psychedelics policy. i know plenty of people who messed up their psyche with drugs - i know plenty who didn’t, only some can take them repeatedly while staying sane to a point. i doubt its the best choice for a forum who has a section about depression and psychological issues. there is one case of suicide connected to the forum where someone tried to heal himself using psychedelics instead of seeking psychological, psychatrical help. psychedelics further create confusion while some people need more clarity. its mainly for people who already had a stick up their a** and not exactly for creative people with already issues getting along with reality. if someone is already floating in space sober, you don’t tell them to let go of security lines, because then the experience would be so much more exciting.

worst case scenario after letting go,    flying away with the spaceship, because there are other exciting realities to explore.

Also, with respect, these are thoughts about, not direct experience. 

@Carl-Richard

Ha! Indeed. 

@Breakingthewall

There isn’t that ‘you’ which ‘gets them’, only the thought that there is. There aren’t (plural) ‘truths’. That is literally what they’re saying. Also, in regard to ‘dangers’, you’re referencing thoughts, not (‘your own’) direct experience. 

[mememe]

12 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Also, with respect, these are thoughts about, not direct experience. 

ofc i have experienced situations like that - metaphorically speaking it’s what he does with the life purpose course.

and i did psychedelics until i was 18.

but yeah for you it might not be direct experience.

Edited February 6, 2022 by mememe

[Nahm]

19 minutes ago, mememe said:

ofc i have experienced situations like that

Not trying to be a all buster, but, the direct experience there is of the thoughts about. 

19 minutes ago, mememe said:

- metaphorically speaking it’s what he does with the life purpose course.

I don’t know what you mean there, sorry. 

19 minutes ago, mememe said:

and i did psychedelics until i was 18.

but yeah for you it might not be direct experience.

That ‘you’, in accordance with direct experience, is a thought. 

[roopepa]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

How, more literally, from direct experience, do psychedelics “mess you up”? 

Precisely how do “psychedelics mess you up”?

Well, when you swallow a certain enough amount of let's say psilocybe cubensis, weird things start happening. Sight enchances, becomes all wavy. Sense of space & time changes.

I ingested around 5 grams, later pretty much psychotic thought-patterns emerged and I had to call an ambulance. I think it is quite safe to say that it was the substance that at least played a role there.

So in a practical sense, I'd say they do "mess one up", just like alcohol. You put in inside your body and soon stuff starts to happen.

From personal experience, I'd say caution is good when psychedelics are used. If I would not have taken those mushrooms that day, there would not have been months of emotional distress, panic attacks and intrusive thoughts.

[Nahm]

@roopepa

Again, not trying to be a jerk here… but the thought ‘psychotic thought patterns’ is like the thought, ‘a hundred thoughts’. The thought ‘psychotic patterns’, is the thought, ‘psychotic thought patterns’.  There is the believing of that thought, or, thought attachment. The “danger” is therefore not caused by anything, sans the believing of, the thoughts. I realize this could sound offensive, I don’t mean it that way and I hope you don’t take it that way… wouldn’t you admit, that if you’d sat in a chair and did nothing, the effect would have worn off, and you’d have been perfectly as fine as before ingesting? Thus, it is the reaction to the thoughts, and a “danger of psychedelics”? Likewise, how could a substance, which is no longer in the body, cause months of anything? Really hope this isn’t taken as challenging, or ‘picking on you’, etc. 

[mememe]

@Nahm well a picture, an emotion, a thought an experience thereoff. whatever you like. 

you don’t need to understand it for the phenomenon being there.

i love mario, is not about mushrooms, the mushrooms where added later.

Edited February 6, 2022 by mememe

[Nahm]

@roopepa

The point is really, it’s thought attachment, but… you are not claiming you’re awake, God, God conscious, omniscient, the most awake human in history, demeaning other people / teachers, etc, and ‘teaching’ of “the dangers”, and then belittling people who later ask questions / for some help. People who are also experiencing, thought attachment. 

[Nahm]

9 minutes ago, mememe said:

@Nahm well a picture, an emotion, a thought an experience thereoff. whatever you like. 

you don’t need to understand it for the phenomenon being there.

i love mariu, is not about mushrooms, the mushrooms where added later.

I hear ya, but, spirituality, with integrity, is inspection, and is not per se, ‘whatever you like’. Unless of course that is someone’s prerogative so to speak, but it isn’t really inspecting, as that ‘prerogative’ is a thought, a belief. The difference therein, is suffering. 

I was just pointing out that psychedelics are in plain view and have been for a very long time. 

[mememe]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

I hear ya, but, spirituality, with integrity, is inspection, and is not per se, ‘whatever you like’.

yeah thanks, i also did not say it was about what i like. i like a song about an only child. most people here prefere psychedelics. i like an idea of compassion more than an idea of consciousness. consciousness says nothing about the meaning thereof. meaning is not inherent i learned here, although in truth it is.

Edited February 6, 2022 by mememe

[roopepa]

@Nahm 

Not offended at all, greatly appreciated ? Yes, thought attachment was at play that day, and also seems to be right now. Hence the questioning. And yes, sitting in a chair would probably have been a lot better now that I think about it.

Shining light on thought-attachment, rather than theorizing about ego, survival, states and stages have been the best of Nahm, and has been truly life-changing stuff. THANKS

[Danioover9000]

@Neph

12 hours ago, Neph said:

@Danioover9000 As long as I'm taking the medicine the mental condition stays alright.. But, that's not the point it all happened cuz of the kundalini energy & I still haven't dealt with completely yet

   Ah ,so you've visited a psychiatrist? What was the experience like? Have you also gone to a therapist?

   Right now, is the kundalini symptoms lessened a bit, compared to the day you experienced the rush of energy?

[Danioover9000]

@Kksd74628

16 hours ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Danioover9000

Thanks for posting this, but no can do, because people get triggered from anything now a days and even on high quality forum we have people who can't handle a different light wavelenghts  

   Would you at least, if you post in the journaling sub forum, keep posting there in colour?

[Breakingthewall]

48 minutes ago, Nahm said:

I was just pointing out that psychedelics are in plain view and have been for a very long time. 

psychedelics are just a thought ??

[Nahm]

@roopepa

? ?? 

@Breakingthewall

??

[Matt23]

2 hours ago, FlyingLotus said:

(telling someone I'm not your babysitter who's having struggles). That doesn't sound demeaning to me.  That sounds like a very needed wake-up call.  YMMV.

.... seriously?  That's b.s. imo.  

It's so fucking crude and totally lacking any social awareness at all.  Maybe he just has no idea how to speak to people.  I dunno.

Telling someone that who's going through shit is like the biggest, most damaging, unkind slap in the face I could think of.  Let alone someone who you teach and provide content on that is literally about the shit they're going through.  That's lack of responsibility.  

The person is already having their "wake up call" by suffering... and you're pouring vinegar on the wound.

Saying "I feel for you.  I think if you did x that would help.  I suggest going to see a professional as I wish i could be there for you but am very overrun with work."  or something like that and including being truthful about it, is nothing close to becoming their fucking babysitter.   It doesn't take much to type those few extra words of comforting and showing care and not including the belittling comment to an already suffering human being.    

It's this black and white thinking of "Oh, it's either i am their babysitter and thus get sucked of energy or I slap them in the face and tell them to fuck off.  That's all their is."   No tact.  That i don't like.   Pissed.

Hmpf.

[Adamq8]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@roopepa

Again, not trying to be a jerk here… but the thought ‘psychotic thought patterns’ is like the thought, ‘a hundred thoughts’. The thought ‘psychotic patterns’, is the thought, ‘psychotic thought patterns’.  There is the believing of that thought, or, thought attachment. The “danger” is therefore not caused by anything, sans the believing of, the thoughts. I realize this could sound offensive, I don’t mean it that way and I hope you don’t take it that way… wouldn’t you admit, that if you’d sat in a chair and did nothing, the effect would have worn off, and you’d have been perfectly as fine as before ingesting? Thus, it is the reaction to the thoughts, and a “danger of psychedelics”? Likewise, how could a substance, which is no longer in the body, cause months of anything? Really hope this isn’t taken as challenging, or ‘picking on you’, etc. 

Nice one ??

[FlyingLotus]

1 hour ago, Matt23 said:

.... seriously?  That's b.s. imo.

If Neph had contacted him once or twice or just asked for advice from the forum, Leo's reaction would be harsh and out of line.  Thing is he contacted Leo several times, not just asking for advice.  He explicitly blamed Leo as the cause of him being suicidal, that Leo was personally on the hook for solving his problems, and he took no personal responsibility for his role.  

Threatening suicide to force a relationship or reaction out of someone is emotional extortion.  I understand you'd have to be in great pain to say that, and I have compassion for anyone in a dark situation like that.  But if you're in the public eye you constantly have to deal with people blaming you for things you have nothing to do with.  You have to be firm about expectations and responsibilities with fans (aka: strangers) so they don't get the wrong impression.  So I have sympathy for both Leo and Neph.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by FlyingLotus

[Whatever]

1 hour ago, Matt23 said:

.... seriously?  That's b.s. imo.  

It's so fucking crude and totally lacking any social awareness at all.  Maybe he just has no idea how to speak to people.  I dunno.

Telling someone that who's going through shit is like the biggest, most damaging, unkind slap in the face I could think of.  Let alone someone who you teach and provide content on that is literally about the shit they're going through.  That's lack of responsibility.  

The person is already having their "wake up call" by suffering... and you're pouring vinegar on the wound.

Saying "I feel for you.  I think if you did x that would help.  I suggest going to see a professional as I wish i could be there for you but am very overrun with work."  or something like that and including being truthful about it, is nothing close to becoming their fucking babysitter.   It doesn't take much to type those few extra words of comforting and showing care and not including the belittling comment to an already suffering human being.    

It's this black and white thinking of "Oh, it's either i am their babysitter and thus get sucked of energy or I slap them in the face and tell them to fuck off.  That's all their is."   No tact.  That i don't like.   Pissed.

Hmpf.

It can also be damaging that some people might think Leo embodies love. Message is that Love is indifferent, love doesnt care, love slaps people allready suffering and puts them down. 

[Matt23]

55 minutes ago, FlyingLotus said:

Thing is he contacted Leo several times, not just asking for advice.  He explicitly blamed Leo as the cause of him being suicidal, that Leo was personally on the hook for solving his problems, and he took no personal responsibility for his role.  

Fair.  Admittedly, I have no idea how the interaction went down or the details.  So maybe this was a reasonable reaction from Leo.  I don't know.  I still think using the term "babysitter" may not have been tactful.  Though, again, I don't know the details.  

But what I will say is that this isn't the first time (again, maybe "this time" wasn't a "time" or incident where Leo's actions were unreasonable) where Leo's said things that have been, in my opinion, quite damaging and the opposite of compassionate (and I don't mean "compassionate" as in being someone's "babysitter" and letting them run all over you; that would be strawmaning what I mean by "compassion").  Meaning, it's easy enough to let people know they're ok, give a few suggestions and pieces of guidance, and/or guide them to a professional in a way where you're not putting them down etc. and can support them.  It doesn't take much.  "I'm not your babysitter" turns into "I feel for you and understand it's difficult.  Maybe try 'x', it may help.  If you realize 'y', it may help.  I think if you saw a professional that would be best as I'm only on the internet and feel unable to fully be with you at this time.  Please reach out to a moderator if things get tough."  Or something like that.  

 

And I get that I'm not in Leo's (or Neph's shoes), so I don't know what it's like.  

I just know that I feel and have felt quite upset with how Leo has communicated and 'been' with people on the forum.  Specifically when it comes to people reaching out for help in times of crisis and his reactions to that.  

Again... As far as I've seen.  

I dunno.