Unvaccinated Travellers Barred from PLanes & Trains

[rnd]

1 hour ago, SgtPepper said:

so in other words, a healthy person may choose to not vaccinate, and that is fine, but they are living in a society, and there are basic expectations that come with that.

It's also important to recognize that some people's health is not in their control. For example, part of the reason why I do get the vaccine + boosters is because I don't have a spleen. So I take every reasonable precaution I can get when it comes to my health. 

Your problem is that you assume that there's

a) only 1 virus - c19 - in this world and
b)  vaccine is the ONLY cure from it.

 

That's a narrow naive worldview.

 

There're 1000s of viruses out there. Some rare, some aren't. Let's take a 100 for simplicity. Then, using your reasoning: if you choose to live in the society,  you'd have to give me, and everyone else, a 100% proof that you're not infected with ANY of those 100s of viruses, at ANY given time. And that proof must be not not pills, or  immunity of a recovered, but with a vaccine. Go ahead and vaccinate yourself against  100 viruses.

You can't? Then, lock yourself at home - you're dangerous for the society.

 

---

You live in the society. Then accept it that you might get infected from someone, or infect some, no matter what.

And are you certain that you've never infected anyone with, let's say, a influenza? Maybe that person, or people, died -- because of you.  How can you know that that's not the case?

Edited December 17, 2021 by rnd

[vladorion]

Quote

I might be misunderstanding you here, but I am or not one person is deciding these mandates, it's a collective choice. I am saying it's a given that individuals have to follow the collective choice because living in a society entails that. In the same way, it's not appropriate to drive 60mph in a school zone. I might not have kids and I might even be careful, but I still don't have the right to do that.

By the same token, most people on this forum should be in jail because they're constantly breaking the law and taking illegal drugs.

[BlackPhil]

22 hours ago, TDLH said:

It is truly amazing that there still are so many people on all these forums that talk about being spiritual, that we are just imagined beings, that this reality is not physical at all, that this is just a dream state, "we are all God", this is nothing but nothingness, Love is all you need, etc…….

And yet these very same people run back to there little EGO lives full of Fear, Hate, and Anger if someone doesn’t cooperate in the Mass Collective Madness!  OR, If someone has a different POV.

This Pandemic is not about Pro-vax or Anti Vax, Democrat or Republican etc….

It’s about facing your fears and asking yourself, why are we individually and collectively creating this Pandemic and this Madness?   That’s the Meta question!  

If you truly believe you are Nothingness, Absolute God, that this is just a dream etc.  Then what’s the problem? 

Walk your talk, and stop pointing the finger!

 

Just sharing a few thoughts, ideas, and beliefs!

True words. Feels like this "crisis" is forcing people to show their true self. There are alot of, so called, spiritual people who talk alot and pretend to be fearless and loving while things are all good. Still many of them absolutely lost it the second a small survival threat like this showed up. 

[PepperBlossoms]

I am upset that I fell for the propaganda that the news created and it seems like people have been brainwashed and are preaching to take the vaccine like a religious person tries to convert you.  The news stations all are saying the same thing as each other and that is a bit scary.

http://indepthnh.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/COVID-Report-from-Rep.-Weyler-3.pdf

I never considered for one second to study the other side of the story.

People are trusting their governments when the government is the one that is dropping bombs, increasing inflation and debt, not doing anything about student loans or health insurance debt, not raising minimum wage, allowing to take away abortion freedoms, talking about immigrants like they are shits, etc. 

When someone says, don't trust anything you read on the internet, that goes the same for stuff telling you to get the vaccine and stuff telling you not to get it.

It now looks like people are zombies.  The mind can't tell the difference between real and imaginary and the same goes for anything the pharmaceutical industry, government, and hospitals, etc. tell us.  I now can't tell whether it was better to take or not take the vaccine and can't trust anything.

We don't know the long term side effects and yet we are being pushed to take it....look who is profiting.  If the vaccine was safe, wouldn't the data have been shared?

[Johnny Galt]

@PepperBlossoms

1 hour ago, PepperBlossoms said:

If the vaccine was safe, wouldn't the data have been shared?

What exactly do you mean by this? sources? 

[BlackMaze]

8 hours ago, PepperBlossoms said:

I am upset that I fell for the propaganda that the news created and it seems like people have been brainwashed and are preaching to take the vaccine like a religious person tries to convert you.  The news stations all are saying the same thing as each other and that is a bit scary.

http://indepthnh.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/COVID-Report-from-Rep.-Weyler-3.pdf

I never considered for one second to study the other side of the story.

People are trusting their governments when the government is the one that is dropping bombs, increasing inflation and debt, not doing anything about student loans or health insurance debt, not raising minimum wage, allowing to take away abortion freedoms, talking about immigrants like they are shits, etc. 

When someone says, don't trust anything you read on the internet, that goes the same for stuff telling you to get the vaccine and stuff telling you not to get it.

It now looks like people are zombies.  The mind can't tell the difference between real and imaginary and the same goes for anything the pharmaceutical industry, government, and hospitals, etc. tell us.  I now can't tell whether it was better to take or not take the vaccine and can't trust anything.

We don't know the long term side effects and yet we are being pushed to take it....look who is profiting.  If the vaccine was safe, wouldn't the data have been shared?

We are being brainwashed. No side can be trusted. Not what you hear in the news and not any conspiracy. Don't just believe what you read or hear. I hope that i'm wrong in the end and that they have our best interests at heart by forcing us to get these vaccines but i don't see this being the case. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by BlackMaze

[PepperBlossoms]

@Johnny GaltI shouldn't have said that as I am not aware of what has and has not been shared and don't know anything.  

@BlackMaze yeah we cannot tell what is and is not conspiracy. nice idea on reading mind manipulation technologies.  My dad said - don't trust anything you read on the internet!!!!! and then I thought, well.. then.. back at you as well for anything you read or hear..  Anyway, not saying anything people should do one way or the other as I have no clue.  I saw the 5G in there too and was like, oh conspiracy.. but yet I don't know anything about it so meh.

I was just so 100% pro vaccine but am surprised I hadn't been more 50/50 of wanting to study both sides first before having gotten it.  I guess the media and my parents were 100% pro vaccine and I just thought how they thought and agreed with them.  My friend's dad died of it so there was the threat of that (or so I was told).

But now some sites are saying the covid tests were like super inaccurate with mostly false positives but even, are those sites trustworthy?  I literally can't trust anything that any site says but yet we trust stuff anyway and forget we are trusting it and then start arguments over it.

Edited December 18, 2021 by PepperBlossoms

[SgtPepper]

19 hours ago, rnd said:

Your problem is that you assume that there's

a) only 1 virus - c19 - in this world and
b)  vaccine is the ONLY cure from it.

 

That's a narrow naive worldview.

 

There're 1000s of viruses out there. Some rare, some aren't. Let's take a 100 for simplicity. Then, using your reasoning: if you choose to live in the society,  you'd have to give me, and everyone else, a 100% proof that you're not infected with ANY of those 100s of viruses, at ANY given time. And that proof must be not not pills, or  immunity of a recovered, but with a vaccine. Go ahead and vaccinate yourself against  100 viruses.

You can't? Then, lock yourself at home - you're dangerous for the society.

 

---

You live in the society. Then accept it that you might get infected from someone, or infect some, no matter what.

And are you certain that you've never infected anyone with, let's say, a influenza? Maybe that person, or people, died -- because of you.  How can you know that that's not the case?

I am not saying we need to vaccinate ourselves from every virus. That’s not the dilemma at hand. 

the dilemma is a known virus, that’s been identified, to kill people, have potentially long term health risks, and have high spread.

Vaccines don’t cure it, but they reduce spread and severity of its effects, which helps reduce hospitalization.

And furthermore there is science and doctors that back it up. 

so I’m here just to learn why in spite of that information people won’t choose to get vaccinated for this one virus. And I got some basic information:

——-

some don’t like mandate and are protesting it

some don’t see the point because boosters will be needed in the future and they don’t want shots every 6months 

some think it’s unnecessary if you’re healthy

and some may even doubt the healthiness of the vaccine.

and it goes right down to, it’s all a lie/hoax to mind control people.

That seems to be the gist of it. 

——

at the same time I also think, if you’re upset your choice is limiting your freedom, there’s also a responsibility on anti-Vax person to understand why from a grounded place. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by SgtPepper

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, SgtPepper said:

 

some don’t like mandate and are protesting it

some don’t see the point because boosters will be needed in the future and they don’t want shots every 6months 

some think it’s unnecessary if you’re healthy

and some may even doubt the healthiness of the vaccine.

i'm not an anti vaxxer really but i do worry about the one's above. also it hasn't been tested long enough. also people die from the flu every year.

yadda yadaa

1 hour ago, SgtPepper said:

and it goes right down to, it’s all a lie/hoax to mind control people.

That seems to be the gist of it. 

this one is nonsense imo

[Arcangelo]

16 hours ago, PepperBlossoms said:

I am upset that I fell for the propaganda that the news created and it seems like people have been brainwashed and are preaching to take the vaccine like a religious person tries to convert you.  The news stations all are saying the same thing as each other and that is a bit scary.

http://indepthnh.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/COVID-Report-from-Rep.-Weyler-3.pdf

I never considered for one second to study the other side of the story.

People are trusting their governments when the government is the one that is dropping bombs, increasing inflation and debt, not doing anything about student loans or health insurance debt, not raising minimum wage, allowing to take away abortion freedoms, talking about immigrants like they are shits, etc. 

When someone says, don't trust anything you read on the internet, that goes the same for stuff telling you to get the vaccine and stuff telling you not to get it.

It now looks like people are zombies.  The mind can't tell the difference between real and imaginary and the same goes for anything the pharmaceutical industry, government, and hospitals, etc. tell us.  I now can't tell whether it was better to take or not take the vaccine and can't trust anything.

We don't know the long term side effects and yet we are being pushed to take it....look who is profiting.  If the vaccine was safe, wouldn't the data have been shared?

I never fell for the propaganda, but I am upset too.

 

2 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

some don’t like mandate and are protesting it

xactly

2 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

some think it’s unnecessary if you’re healthy

xactly

14 hours ago, BlackMaze said:

but i don't see this being the case.

 

me neither.

[Raptorsin7]

I think we are setting dangerous precedents with respect to government control over individual autonomy 

[Arcangelo]

6 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I think we are setting dangerous precedents with respect to government control over individual autonomy 

I think the exact same thing my friend.

[Consept]

On 24/12/2021 at 4:37 PM, Raptorsin7 said:

I think we are setting dangerous precedents with respect to government control over individual autonomy 

I think this is a misunderstanding of 'freedom'. If you think about there are many laws and restrictions placed on you in daily life, let's take one for example, driving a car. To drive a car you need to do a test, practical and theory, you need to have a compliant car, you need insurance, road tax etc etc. One could argue that this is a restriction of freedom as if I think I can drive, I should be a better judge than the government and I don't want to jump through all these hoops. I could say the goverment is creating an apartheid against those who don't want to jump through these hoops by making it illegal to drive. In reality we know its necessary because if we have people who haven't passed all these tests it can cause a lot problems in practise, for everyone who wants to drive. 

You might say 'well this completely different', I mean not really but if you want a closer example, we've needed vaccines to travel to certain countries for decades, shots for malaria, tetanus etc this is of course to protect the person but also the local population from them spreading it. It would be quite ridiculous for someone to say the government is controlling their individual autonomy if they don't want to take it. 

So the method of placing restrictions on you if you don't follow a certain measure is something that almost has to be for a functioning society. The only difference with covid is that it's a sudden measure bit of course its a sudden thing that happened, keep in mind when measures such as seat belts came in people protested those as well. 

If you accept that premise then the only argument would be that you think covid isn't real and the government just want to control you for the sake of it or that they've got it completely wrong. Which I'm not going to argue here but personal choice would be to go with experts over conspiracy theorists research. 

 

[Raptorsin7]

@Consept I see what you're saying, maybe I have to reconsider my position.

One thing I think is problematic is that these mandates are only necessary because of the unhealthy portions of the population are at risk. Healthy people have virtually nothing to fear from the virus, so the rest of the population is forced to deal with questionably healthy vaccines being injected into their body.

Would you also support mandatory fitness and health standards for the population? If you are obese, a smoker, etc you are forced to enter into health protocols or else the society will limit your access to certain functions? So similar to how unvaccinated you are getting discriminated against, if you're obese and unhealthy then you will be similarly discriminated against. 

The logic you gave above would also apply to obese/unhealthy people as well right? 

[Arcangelo]

It's very different than a helmet because you can put in and off.

A vaccine goes into your bloodstream, you can't get it out.

[Consept]

@Raptorsin7

I get what you're saying in that healthy people are less at risk, but if you think about it unhealthy and older people are always going to be more at risk with any disease, including what we already get vaccinated for. You wouldn't make the claim that we shouldn't vaccinate anyone with the mmr vaccine for example. Furthermore as much as people say we don't know the long term effects of the vaccine, we definitely don't know the effects of covid, if you look into long term covid that has affected a lot of people. So really it's a risk analysis of what is most likely to be worse covid or the vaccine, going by the needs so far covid would be much worse. 

Next point is interesting, so there's always a balance that the government has to do where you are free but if your actions are particularly dangerous to not just yourself but wider society, those freedoms have to be curbed. So smoking for example is highly taxed and also you can't smoke inside any public places (this is Europe not sure about US), so smokers could say, and I'm sure they have, that they are being discriminated against but of course you can see why that's not the best argument. Food similarly there's a sugar tax in UK, they have to put all ingredients, caloric information etc on food packaging. So I don't think it's about having a mandatory anything you give the information and you apply restrictions on certain things but you're not necessarily forcing people to do things because of course people wouldn't want that. You can argue if they're doing it well or not but to be fair it's a hard balance to strike and any decision will probably have some backlash. You could make the argument with obese people that there should be more restrictions or say they have to go to the gym, but I'm not sure how you would even enforce that. Covid is unusual in that it came about suddenly and everyone is learning as they go and of course there has to be drastic action. 

I think there is just an over reaction of people who misunderstand what freedom actually entails, I think you get my general point though. 

But respect for being open minded 

[Consept]

3 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

It's very different than a helmet because you can put in and off.

A vaccine goes into your bloodstream, you can't get it out.

Try and consider my meta point about freedom, helmet or vaccine the point is it's still something the government mandates. So mandates can actually set a foundation for freedom not necessarily take it away. Other examples need to be used as there's too much emotion around the covid vaccine 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Consept