If there is no self, why do I think there is?

[spinderella]

So, I understand that everything is consciousness.  And conscious is nothing, with the potential to be everything.  I do think I understand this (as much as is possible with a human mind, and from my experiences with psychedelics and meditation).  

I am consciousness.  My brain / mind are also consciousness.  Everything is consciousness.

When I try to locate my "self", or turn attention upon itself, sometimes I feel like well duh - I am this 'watcher' behind my face.  It feels like there's some point of consciousness behind my face, inside my head, in my brain, that is "me", that is observing the world appear in front of me.

But then at the same time, when I try to actually identify where that watcher IS, exactly, I really can't.   Sometimes, I have these brief glimpses where I recognize that there is no difference between what I have identified with as my "self" and everything else that I'm perceiving in consciousness.  It's like I have this vague sense that there's something that which is me (that lives inside my head), but yet, I cannot actually find this 'me' when I look.  

I guess my question is:  what exactly is happening here?  Why do we all think that we are "inside our head" - why does this feel so true - when there is no actual proof that this is true?  And, why are we told (in many teachings) that we are the "watcher", in a way that seems to separate us from our thoughts?  From a nondual perspective, we are the watcher, we are the mind, the brain, the thoughts - we are all of it.  So why do some teachings tell us that we are the watcher?  

[Mason Riggle]

@spinderella language is inherently dualistic.  I am watcher. We are mind.  This 'separation' doesn't exist, of course. What is mistaken to be 'the thinker of thoughts' is just more thought occurring.  What is mistaken to be 'the doer of what is being done' is just more 'what is happening'. 

Of course it's human organisms that are 'perceiving thought'.. 'thinking' is occurring.. it's just that there is no 'separate you' hiding inside an organism somewhere 'doing it', the same way there is no 'you' inside you somewhere 'growing your hair'.. 'Growing hair' is happening as part of a larger process call an organism, and it's happening automatically.. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Leo Gura]

Consciousness is actively imagining a human self. Otherwise how could you feel human?

[Seraphim]

38 minutes ago, spinderella said:

I guess my question is:  what exactly is happening here?  Why do we all think that we are "inside our head" - why does this feel so true - when there is no actual proof that this is true? 

Not everyone has the feeling of existing in the head, behind the eyes. That feeling actually disappears for good after a non-duality type of awakening. That feeling is created by the ego/I-thought, it's a distortion.

42 minutes ago, spinderella said:

 And, why are we told (in many teachings) that we are the "watcher", in a way that seems to separate us from our thoughts?  From a nondual perspective, we are the watcher, we are the mind, the brain, the thoughts - we are all of it.  So why do some teachings tell us that we are the watcher?  

Because the watcher/the knower/awareness is the Self, and the brain, thoughts, etc are a manifestation of the Self.

[WelcometoReality]

33 minutes ago, spinderella said:

I guess my question is:  what exactly is happening here?  Why do we all think that we are "inside our head" - why does this feel so true - when there is no actual proof that this is true? 

For most people that is their experience. Being something inside the head of their body, a state of separation. As we start to have these glimpses you speak of things start to loosen up alittle.

44 minutes ago, spinderella said:

And, why are we told (in many teachings) that we are the "watcher", in a way that seems to separate us from our thoughts?  From a nondual perspective, we are the watcher, we are the mind, the brain, the thoughts - we are all of it.  So why do some teachings tell us that we are the watcher?  

It's used as a teaching tool. We are usually very identified with out thoughts so by being the watcher of our thoughts we start disidentifying with them and can see that the I-thought is no more I than anything else.

[Mason Riggle]

@spinderella "If there is no self, why do I think there is?" the very framing of this question is part of the reason..

Try this next time.. 'If there is no self, why does 'thinking there is a self' happen?', and the answer won't seem quite so mysterious... 'If there's no self, why does 'hair growing' happen?'.. well, there doesn't seem to be any contradiction there.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[spinderella]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Consciousness is actively imagining a human self. Otherwise how could you feel human?

What is the mechanism by which consciousness imagines?  Is there a video on this or something I can read?

[Mason Riggle]

 

11 minutes ago, spinderella said:

What is the mechanism by which consciousness imagines?  Is there a video on this or something I can read?

duality... 
 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[caspex]

when you feel the watcher, remember that it is also a feeling, existing like all others

the watcher then may get pushed back, keep remembering it's just a feeling

[Breakingthewall]

I think that humans form the idea of the self by our complex social interaction. I suppose that other social animals will also have a basic self, monkeys, wolves etc. we as humans not only perceive, but we are perceived by our peers and this is essential for our survival. many times more important how we are perceived than what we perceive. if you focus on what you perceive there is only perception. if you focus on being perceived there is only i. after hundreds of thousands of years this is encoded. there is fertile ground for the self to be created. I imagine that someone who has grown up without social contact will lack self, although it will be very dysfunctional and probably unhappy, since the human does not have that nature. such a case would be interesting

Edited August 5, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

survive mode, i am separate body mind

thrive mode, i am the awareness, the watcher

arrive mode, i am the all, the unmanifest reflecting the manifest

 

just some pointers ...

Edited August 5, 2021 by gettoefl

[RickyFitts]

2 hours ago, spinderella said:

When I try to locate my "self", or turn attention upon itself, sometimes I feel like well duh - I am this 'watcher' behind my face.  It feels like there's some point of consciousness behind my face, inside my head, in my brain, that is "me", that is observing the world appear in front of me.

I think that's largely because we humans tend to be so lost in our thoughts, we're very mind-centred beings - and that concentrates focus in the head (more specifically in the third eye area, or at least that's how I experience it). I know that for me personally, a big part of my spiritual growth has involved shifting attention into my body, and particularly into my heart; intellectually wrestling with the concept of non-duality didn't really cut it for me, it just caused frustration in the end. Realisation happens on all levels, not just on the level of mind.

[Tim R]

4 hours ago, spinderella said:

What is the mechanism by which consciousness imagines?

There is no "mechanism". In fact, there is no "how" at all. Consciousness is groundless and so is everything that emerges within it. 

[Waken]

Well if you just keep looking into it like you did, it will clear up more and more. 'the separate self' could be seen as like a combination of multiple beliefs, with 'I'm a/the observer' as a part of it. You can clear it all out by just simply investigating like you already did. For example.. you say 'my brain', 'my head', can you find anything that the head would belong to, or could it also be seen as just a head? And what is 'head' in your experience when you close your eyes, can you notice that there are sensations, but that thought just adds the idea of a head to it? Can you even find anything that is doing is looking and investigating?
Well.. if it attracts you to become clear on that you are not a person/that there is no person, you can pm me. I've been helping/guiding people get clarity on this topic on and (mostly) off in this topic for like 7 years. I love doing it

Edited August 5, 2021 by Waken

[James12345]

@spinderella how are you sure about, what is knowing, self or knowledge? Where is it? What is it? Sound? 

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, spinderella said:

What is the mechanism by which consciousness imagines?  Is there a video on this or something I can read?

That's the kicker: all mechanisms are imagined.

Imagination is unlimited, therefore it requires no mechanism. It dreams up mechanisms so it is not bound by them.

[Vynce]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the kicker: all mechanisms are imagined.

Imagination is unlimited, therefore it requires no mechanism. It dreams up mechanisms so it is not bound by them.

Shouldn't this mean reality would be completely random? After all it appears as if there is some kind of order to it. After all the big goal of consciousness is to evolve into absolute love/truth. For me this implies its bound to some sort of order. 

[GabeN]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the kicker: all mechanisms are imagined.

Imagination is unlimited, therefore it requires no mechanism. It dreams up mechanisms so it is not bound by them.

@Leo Gura right! it also dreams up certain boundaries ;D

[mandyjw]

10 hours ago, spinderella said:

I guess my question is:  what exactly is happening here?  Why do we all think that we are "inside our head" - why does this feel so true - when there is no actual proof that this is true?  And, why are we told (in many teachings) that we are the "watcher", in a way that seems to separate us from our thoughts?  From a nondual perspective, we are the watcher, we are the mind, the brain, the thoughts - we are all of it.  So why do some teachings tell us that we are the watcher?  

There's no inside or outside. Sure people have wild out of body experiences, but your vision and your senses already now, ordinarily don't have an inside or outside either. Place your hand on a surface, a table, etc. Is the sensation of two things, my hand the the table?

Making the separation of "the watcher" from the thoughts and perceptions helps to untangle some confusion about what's me and what's not me, what's inside and what's outside. This separation of watcher and watched isn't real, but it can help illuminate that there is no separation between me and the world. The separation of the watcher and the thoughts illuminates that the separate "I" is only ever a thought ever changing, ever streaming. 

You are profoundly special and unique as you are an expression of creation but you never left the Creator or the Creative process to become a separate creation. If a projector projects a movie on the wall with characters and a storyline, they are real in themselves, but reeeally they are only ever made of the same light from the projector. You are the Author and the Light of this movie, shown through the humbling perspective of a colored character on the wall. This is not a disappointing emotionally devoid relaxation. The author loves the characters and IS the character as immediately and fully as the projector projects the light. There is no actual speed of light, it never goes anywhere and it never left. Light is neither wave (movement) nor particle (fixed object) , just as you are neither creation or creator or creating. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Vynce said:

Shouldn't this mean reality would be completely random?

No.

Since it has no bounds, nothing prevents it from becoming infinitely intelligent, and hence it became infinitely intelligent "for free".

3 hours ago, Vynce said:

After all it appears as if there is some kind of order to it. 

Infinite order.