Libertarian Examples Mega-Thread

[Eren Eeager]

@Leo Gura Leo I am a bit confused. why would anyone believe in libertarianism? It is a very silly philosophy. How did it become even a thing? 

[Apparition of Jack]

@Eren Eeager On the surface libertarianism might seem reasonable. A lot of our hassle in modern life has to do with government red tape, wouldn't getting rid of it make everything better? < That's the logic anyway.

What libertarians fail to see is just how necessary red tape and regulations are to creating a safe, well-functioning society. It's not a coincidence that most libertarians tend to be white and male, since these two groups are often the most oblivious to just how necessary government is, since these people are the ones that have it easiest in society when it comes to job opportunities, wealth, education, etc. and don't see just how much they benefit from government.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Apparition of Jack

[Forestluv]

5 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

why would anyone believe in libertarianism? It is a very silly philosophy. 

It’s silliness depends on context.

For example: should the federal government create an agency to regulate babysitting? Should the government require that a potential babysitter have to undergo formal training and certification to be a babysitter? To a libertarian (and most people), this would be absurd. It’s much more reasonable to allow parents to decide who is mature enough to babysit their child. If the babysitter makes a mistake, the parents can instruct the babysitter how to improve, or they can just hire another babysitter. There is no reason for the federal government to intervene through regulation.

However, there are other contexts. Should the government require that a potential pilot be required to undergo formal training and certification to be a pilot and fly a commercial airplane? In this context, I would say yes. I think it’s a pretty good idea to require pilots to undergo pilot training and certification before they can fly a plane. 

[Eren Eeager]

@Forestluv I see, its attractiveness comes from the idea of gaining freedom but without seeing the consequences. But still it fails as soon as you start contemplating the alternative of governmental intervention. 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Eren Eeager said:

@Forestluv But still it fails as soon as you start contemplating the alternative of governmental intervention. 

Yep. It has patches of value in narrow limited scopes, yet fails in the bigger picture. 

[Leo Gura]

Libertarianism is good against a severe authoritarian state, perhaps like that in China.

But libertarians always act as though the government is oppressing them -- no matter what size government is -- so they cry wolf even about sensible regulations which are not really oppressive.

Stuff like Medicare For All and Green New Deal and Civil Rights is not oppressive or authoritarian. It benefits the vast majority of people. Yet libertarians will oppose it. So they become useful idiots for corporations and plutocrats who want as little regulation and public services as possible.

[Jacob Morres]

@Eren Eeager ik some entrepreneurs hate it because it attacks their very being, them as a person. but really socialistic policies is about more equality and love for all which is contrary to the entrepreneurs MO because their values have to change. and values changing is literally like parts of yourself and life needing to change, which is a huge shift and evolution which is scary and challenging and the ego doesn't want it

which i can understand because even for me in my own bubble it is difficult for my own values to change, i want to stay and hold onto the past and the way i'm doing things but eventually i have to look up and see that my way of being is not the best way of being 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Jacob Morres

[fortifyacacia3]

"Creating the Horror Chambers: Noam Chomsky on the tyranny of libertarianism, the need for media democracy, and Latin American resistance to US imperialism"

Noam Chomsky interviewed by Dan Falcone  

https://chomsky.info/072015-2/

Chomsky is a proponent of anarcho-syndicalism and has described himself before as a libertarian socialist. Though, he's very critical of how Libertarianism has actually played out, especially in the US.

What made me look into this was that someone once called him a "left-wing libertarian". I find a bit of needless incoherence in this, but perhaps a contribution for synthesis. 

 

[Leo Gura]

You can't have anarcho-syndicalism with nuclear weapons. It's nonsense on stilts.

The state needs to be at least large enough to manage nuclear weapons and prevent private actors from getting their hands on them. And that's just one out of thousand problems.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Leo Gura I call myself a libertarian socialist, but in practice I lean more towards social democracy, because like you say you can't solve massive collective issues with a bunch of local-sized worker councils. Yet, I don't feel like there's a contradiction between the two - for me libertarian socialism is more of a mindset, a way of treating other people and what I expect of myself, whereas social democracy is the nuts-and-bolts solutions to the material problems the world faces. My libertarian socialism informs my social democracy and my social democracy grounds my libertarian socialism.

Does that make sense? Am I thinking too much about these things?

[Leo Gura]

@Apparition of Jack I have no idea what you mean with those labels. Could mean almost anything.

[Hello from Russia]

@Apparition of Jack  Usually libertarians and socialist are the opposites. Maybe you mean you're a liberal? It is a different thing, although it is very easy to confuse these two.

Being libertarian and socialist at the same time would make you a centrist on the scale.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Hello from Russia Well, that's how most people today think of it yes, but historically libertarianism has actually been associated with left-wing ideas and it was only in the 70s that it started to be more associated with the right-wing. Libertarian Socialism is basically socialist thought that rejects the authoritarianism and statism of things like Soviet communism.

@Leo Gura Well, by libertarian socialism I mean the worldview (I know I know, dirty word) of treating everyone with respect regardless of colour, gender, etc., being distrustful of authority, being distrustful of states and state forces, downplaying the importance of money in human affairs, collectively producing goods, relying on human goodwill and co-operation to manage our problems instead of coercion, and so on.

By social democracy I mean relying on parliamentary democracy to create the best political outcomes for everyone (even if it involves compromise), realising that money and markets are unavoidable but using it to uplift the most people, realising that states and authority and coercion are necessary even if they should have oversight, and so on.

Basically I accept the need for money, states, coercion, etc. but endeavour to create a world where these things are unnecessary. You could say it's a form of prefigurative politics. It's like being both utopian and pragmatic at the same time.

[Leo Gura]

This clip here has a nice explanation of the problems with unlimited free speech which libertarians love to argue for:

So what libertarians don't understand about unlimited free speech is that it gets exploited by clever egos to actually take away the free speech of others, leading to an overall reduction in free speech for all.

This is a microcosmic case of the larger macrocosmic problem with unlimited freedom as I discussed in my libertarian video. The paradox of freedom is that unlimited forms of it lead to oppression. Which is what libertarians refuse to understand.

Vaush's analysis here is precisely correct as he understands the counter-intuitive ways in which freedom can backfire. The guy he's arguing against does not understand this because he isn't taking into account the clever and radically selfish ways in which ego will exploit his unlimited free speech. And of course the hypocrisy is that even that guy must admit of restriction on speech in case of threats of violence.

Also notice how the libertarian guy does not have an understanding of relativity when Vaush pushes him with examples of white people being offended by the presence of black people in a restaurant. To a libertarian this does not compute because he naively thinks that white people cannot legitimately feel oppressed by the mere presence of a black person. Which of course they can and do!

Vaush does a brilliant job of breaking this guy down.

[Extreme Z7]

Here's a highlights reel of the video above made by a fan channel.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Extreme Z7

[TheAlchemist]

[Carl-Richard]

 

[IJB063]

@Husseinisdoingfine

Peter Schiff is the man

Besides his constant shit out about investing gold

Schiff predicted the 2008 financial crisis, and we’re gonna have another believe me, I say within the year with Covid, and it’s gonna make us wish for the days of 2008 lol

 

[TrustTheProcess]

@IJB063

Quote

 

2 people own more wealth than the bottom 50% of people in america.

Amazon pays 0 dollars in taxes. 

In america, the richest country on earth, we have people dying due to not having access to health care. it costs $3000 to call an ambulance. Drug price inflation is sky high.

We neglect maintaining our infrastructure... it is crumbling all across the country since the Reagan tax cut precedent. 

We have severe k-12 educational inequality. Also, college costs an arm and a leg. People who go to it are typically debt slaves.

I wonder if Peter Schiff would be able to explain how libertarianism can solve these problems. 

[IJB063]

@louhad

5 minutes ago, louhad said:

@IJB063

I wonder if Peter Schiff would be able to explain how libertarianism can solve these problems. 

5 minutes ago, louhad said:

Quote

Also, college costs an arm and a leg. People who go to it are typically debt slaves.

I

Watch the video, he covers this in the first 20 minutes