How important is it to be a part of a hierarchy?

[montecristo]

With enough cash in the bank to support your needs, how necessary is it to be part of a dominance hierarchy at any rung?  How does that fit into the non-monetary aspects of self-actualization?

im curious to get a list of pros/cons of living inside/outside of a hiercharchy of other humans

[Truth Addict]

@montecristo I think you have the answers, and you just need to ask yourself some questions:

• What do you want in life?
• How do you want your life to be?
• What are your highest values?
• How is a certain hierarchy going to affect your life?

I wouldn't focus tooo much on the pros and cons. I would care more about the fundamental things, like health, happiness, and being able to make a decent life. To me, all the other stuff are a bonus.

[Dan502]

If you desire solitude, seek it.

[ajasatya]

2 hours ago, montecristo said:

With enough cash in the bank to support your needs, how necessary is it to be part of a dominance hierarchy at any rung?  How does that fit into the non-monetary aspects of self-actualization?

If a group of gangsters stole all your money and beat you to the hospital, would you like if the authorities from the social justice system were on the same hierarchical level as the burglars so that the burglars could decide for themselves not to suffer the consequences of their act?

The creation of an unified power called "State" is the attempt of mankind to protect itself from its own ignorance. We need common good to beat individualist devilry. The quality of your life can be severely affected if you don't feel minimally safe when walking around.

This was just an example.

[CreamCat]

50 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

If a group of gangsters stole all your money and beat you to the hospital, would you like if the authorities from the social justice system were on the same hierarchical level as the burglars so that the burglars could decide for themselves not to suffer the consequences of their act?

The creation of an unified power called "State" is the attempt of mankind to protect itself from its own ignorance. We need common good to beat individualist devilry. The quality of your life can be severely affected if you don't feel minimally safe when walking around.

This was just an example.

The fact that the thread creator doesn't want to be a part of hierarchy doesn't mean the postor denies social hierarchy.

You can become an independent force that floats around hierarchies.

You don't have to follow orders from hierarchies to interact with them.

Living outside hierarchies is possible when you make money as an independent artist like Leo Gura.

Edited June 25, 2019 by CreamCat

[ValiantSalvatore]

This is the point of being yellow IMO. 

Or extremely simplistic being "the whole package". (It's in the spiral dynamics book...)

[montecristo]

I was just curious to identify blind spots I have with regards to living outside a hierarchy. It's easy to oversimplify and say "oh, well all I need is money" while missing some other subtleties that come from being a part of a hierarchy, sense of community or shared problems/struggles to relate to others about etc.

[Leo Gura]

You're not getting it.

MONEY is the hierarchy!

Money means nothing without a hierarchy of wage slaves who will work for you to get your money.

There is no escaping society other than through death.

You can live alone in the woods but you will still be intimately tied into society regardless of how much money you have.

If you watch Life Below Zero you see just how badly people who live alone in the remote Alaskan wilderness depend on society to save their ass. They could not live otherwise.

[Inliytened1]

@CreamCat even one who owns their own business can't escape it.  He must abide by the laws of the Government.  He has a vote but he cannot control what his President is going to do next.

[Aakash]

@possibilities yesss possibilities open up a cartel yourself if your at stage turquoise going to stage coral. 

[montecristo]

I was more wondering about the consequences of not being part of a group of people who have specific expectations of you.

Obviously you cant escape hierarchies in an absolute sense but if you are someone who has the money to simply do as they please on a daily basis it's a bit different.

Like in Leo's case he is not accountable to anyone directly and im wondering what drawbacks living that "dream" might have.

[Aakash]

Bad relationships most probably, because people be saving yo ass for no return in the short term. 

Living by yourself will reap no consequences on others in the short term or long term. 

There is not escaping the heirarchy either way, hence there will always be a full reintegration at some point of comfortability or whilst not in comfortability. 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, montecristo said:

Like in Leo's case he is not accountable to anyone directly and im wondering what drawbacks living that "dream" might have.

One of biggest drawbacks is that it can make you lazy, isolated, and spoiled.

Most people need some degree of external pressure to keep them straight, otherwise they would become spoiled and lost in themselves.

Not being accountable to anyone is not all sweetness. Because then you have to hold yourself to account, which is quite the challange.

[mandyjw]

I was not good at working as part of a group or under someone else's authority, it was such a strong preference that I didn't even want to go to college because I was so frustrated with teachers and a classroom setting. I really wanted to study on my own. I started my own business and it was successful. But now I'm older, and I want to be more involved with people and my community, I want to volunteer for different organizations but I need to learn basic skills on how to work with people. It takes certain skills to work independently and other skills to work with people. A well rounded person has both and your success will always be limited if you don't know how to work as part of a group. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by mandyjw

[LastThursday]

If you really examine it deeply, no one person has any dominance over you.  Hierarchies are based on dominance: "I have more strength (or whatever) than you, so you will submit to my will".

You are your worst own enemy. The only reason your take hierarchies seriously, is because you don't have the cojones to go out of your comfort zone and potentially risk your own survival. If you did, you'd think hierarchies were ridiculous; and you'd truly be free.

That said, hierarchies have their uses. Why do something yourself, when your leader can do it for you? Now THAT is survival in action.

Edited June 26, 2019 by LastThursday

[CreamCat]

On 6/26/2019 at 7:31 PM, Leo Gura said:

MONEY is the hierarchy!

Money means nothing without a hierarchy of wage slaves who will work for you to get your money.

I think you assume a specific kind of social organization.

In north korea which is a kleptocracy, bureaucrats just take businesses from entrepreneurs they don't like by sending soldiers.

I think money is not everything in hierarchies.

Edited June 29, 2019 by CreamCat

[CreamCat]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, Leo Gura said:

Most people need some degree of external pressure to keep them straight, otherwise they would become spoiled and lost in themselves.

Not being accountable to anyone is not all sweetness. Because then you have to hold yourself to account, which is quite the challange.

I think if you want to become the best version of yourself, you have to learn to hold yourself accountable without external pressure.

If you become lazy without external pressure, once you make it to the top, you will be taken down by others very soon.

Edited June 29, 2019 by CreamCat

[Shadowraix]

Without a hierarchy how can you sort people based on creating value? 

No hierarchy is basically communism. 

We could go somewhere in between. Make the cons of each as manageable as possible but that requires collective thinking too.

 

[Leo Gura]

In practice even communism has tons of hierarchy.

[RichardY]

There "is" only 2 ways a society can go Prosocial or Eusocial selection.

Eusocial is where people band together in a hierarchy, High Tory(literally means bandit). Which has the affect of concentrating wealth through conformity and networking. In a royal class or dictatorship of the proletariat, in hive form.

Communism is the most developed of the systems. Marxian Republic Dictatorship, Stalinist Centralisation, Or Trotsky Democratic means.

Prosocial is where resources and technology are distributed in society, and not concentrated in a few. Like Tesla not patenting and charging royalties on the early methods of AC electric generation.

A person in the Overclass has incentive to stay for the networking effects & conformity of material wealth, through their connections. A person in the underclass has material incentive to sellout and join the Overclass. 

Best for humanity would be Overclass defection and Underclass adherence. The opposite is currently the case. As humanity moves towards a Tech singularity, with it's unsustainable population maintained with fossil fuels, or the withholding of technology.

Sorting people may already establish a hierarchy of sorts.