montecristo

How important is it to be a part of a hierarchy?

21 posts in this topic

With enough cash in the bank to support your needs, how necessary is it to be part of a dominance hierarchy at any rung?  How does that fit into the non-monetary aspects of self-actualization?

im curious to get a list of pros/cons of living inside/outside of a hiercharchy of other humans


‘The water in which the mystic swims is the water in which a madman drowns. --Joseph Campbell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@montecristo I think you have the answers, and you just need to ask yourself some questions:

  • What do you want in life?
  • How do you want your life to be?
  • What are your highest values?
  • How is a certain hierarchy going to affect your life?

I wouldn't focus tooo much on the pros and cons. I would care more about the fundamental things, like health, happiness, and being able to make a decent life. To me, all the other stuff are a bonus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, montecristo said:

With enough cash in the bank to support your needs, how necessary is it to be part of a dominance hierarchy at any rung?  How does that fit into the non-monetary aspects of self-actualization?

If a group of gangsters stole all your money and beat you to the hospital, would you like if the authorities from the social justice system were on the same hierarchical level as the burglars so that the burglars could decide for themselves not to suffer the consequences of their act?

The creation of an unified power called "State" is the attempt of mankind to protect itself from its own ignorance. We need common good to beat individualist devilry. The quality of your life can be severely affected if you don't feel minimally safe when walking around.

This was just an example.


unborn Truth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Importance is relative.

"Important" for what?

If you want a career in a corporation then yes, hierarchy is important.


Hard times create strong men. 
Strong men create good times. 
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

50 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

If a group of gangsters stole all your money and beat you to the hospital, would you like if the authorities from the social justice system were on the same hierarchical level as the burglars so that the burglars could decide for themselves not to suffer the consequences of their act?

The creation of an unified power called "State" is the attempt of mankind to protect itself from its own ignorance. We need common good to beat individualist devilry. The quality of your life can be severely affected if you don't feel minimally safe when walking around.

This was just an example.

The fact that the thread creator doesn't want to be a part of hierarchy doesn't mean the postor denies social hierarchy.

You can become an independent force that floats around hierarchies.

You don't have to follow orders from hierarchies to interact with them.

Living outside hierarchies is possible when you make money as an independent artist like Leo Gura.

Edited by CreamCat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the point of being yellow IMO. 

Or extremely simplistic being "the whole package". (It's in the spiral dynamics book...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just curious to identify blind spots I have with regards to living outside a hierarchy. It's easy to oversimplify and say "oh, well all I need is money" while missing some other subtleties that come from being a part of a hierarchy, sense of community or shared problems/struggles to relate to others about etc.


‘The water in which the mystic swims is the water in which a madman drowns. --Joseph Campbell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're not getting it.

MONEY is the hierarchy!

Money means nothing without a hierarchy of wage slaves who will work for you to get your money.

There is no escaping society other than through death.

You can live alone in the woods but you will still be intimately tied into society regardless of how much money you have.

If you watch Life Below Zero you see just how badly people who live alone in the remote Alaskan wilderness depend on society to save their ass. They could not live otherwise.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@CreamCat even one who owns their own business can't escape it.  He must abide by the laws of the Government.  He has a vote but he cannot control what his President is going to do next.


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@possibilities yesss possibilities open up a cartel yourself if your at stage turquoise going to stage coral. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was more wondering about the consequences of not being part of a group of people who have specific expectations of you.

Obviously you cant escape hierarchies in an absolute sense but if you are someone who has the money to simply do as they please on a daily basis it's a bit different.

Like in Leo's case he is not accountable to anyone directly and im wondering what drawbacks living that "dream" might have.


‘The water in which the mystic swims is the water in which a madman drowns. --Joseph Campbell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bad relationships most probably, because people be saving yo ass for no return in the short term. 

Living by yourself will reap no consequences on others in the short term or long term. 

There is not escaping the heirarchy either way, hence there will always be a full reintegration at some point of comfortability or whilst not in comfortability. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, montecristo said:

Like in Leo's case he is not accountable to anyone directly and im wondering what drawbacks living that "dream" might have.

One of biggest drawbacks is that it can make you lazy, isolated, and spoiled.

Most people need some degree of external pressure to keep them straight, otherwise they would become spoiled and lost in themselves.

Not being accountable to anyone is not all sweetness. Because then you have to hold yourself to account, which is quite the challange.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I was not good at working as part of a group or under someone else's authority, it was such a strong preference that I didn't even want to go to college because I was so frustrated with teachers and a classroom setting. I really wanted to study on my own. I started my own business and it was successful. But now I'm older, and I want to be more involved with people and my community, I want to volunteer for different organizations but I need to learn basic skills on how to work with people. It takes certain skills to work independently and other skills to work with people. A well rounded person has both and your success will always be limited if you don't know how to work as part of a group. 

Edited by mandyjw

Light on Earth The power of love came into me,
and I became fierce like a lion,
then tender like the evening star.” - Rumi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

If you really examine it deeply, no one person has any dominance over you.  Hierarchies are based on dominance: "I have more strength (or whatever) than you, so you will submit to my will".

You are your worst own enemy. The only reason your take hierarchies seriously, is because you don't have the cojones to go out of your comfort zone and potentially risk your own survival. If you did, you'd think hierarchies were ridiculous; and you'd truly be free.

That said, hierarchies have their uses. Why do something yourself, when your leader can do it for you? Now THAT is survival in action.

Edited by LastThursday

Don't eat soup with chopsticks. Pick up the bowl and drink.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 6/26/2019 at 7:31 PM, Leo Gura said:

MONEY is the hierarchy!

Money means nothing without a hierarchy of wage slaves who will work for you to get your money.

I think you assume a specific kind of social organization.

In north korea which is a kleptocracy, bureaucrats just take businesses from entrepreneurs they don't like by sending soldiers.

I think money is not everything in hierarchies.

Edited by CreamCat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 6/27/2019 at 6:46 AM, Leo Gura said:

Most people need some degree of external pressure to keep them straight, otherwise they would become spoiled and lost in themselves.

Not being accountable to anyone is not all sweetness. Because then you have to hold yourself to account, which is quite the challange.

I think if you want to become the best version of yourself, you have to learn to hold yourself accountable without external pressure.

If you become lazy without external pressure, once you make it to the top, you will be taken down by others very soon.

Edited by CreamCat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without a hierarchy how can you sort people based on creating value? 

No hierarchy is basically communism. 

We could go somewhere in between. Make the cons of each as manageable as possible but that requires collective thinking too.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In practice even communism has tons of hierarchy.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now