Islam vs actualized.org

[LordFall]

2 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Seems like you want to discuss this from an individual POV, as in, which lifestyle do you think is better, rather than from a societal/political point of view, considering we are in the societal/political section, it might make sense to focus on the latter.

The meat of the matter really, is that human secular societies (actualized.org is completely irrelevant in this instance, and always will be) are fundamentally unsustainable. Secularism is essentially a bullish bet on human individualism and technological progress, which are suppose to replace the void of killing a God/Gods. But if you let humans do whatever they want to do without any sort of cultural or religious pressure, what will happen is that humans will slowly make themselves extinct. And I don't see "stage green" having any answer to this issue whatsoever at all, in fact "stage green" society is impossible (and funny thing is, you can't actually prove me WRONG if you think otherwise lol). That is not to say that you should be in awe, or automatically subscribe to "stage blue" either, but "stage blue" is where the true sustainability of any civilization is at. And I mean, prove me wrong. You can't

You make some good meta points I think you're correct that specifically stage green is not a viable structure for a group to operate in long term. We are basically in the west already half living in a stage green society. That's what the whole DEI movement is based on. Feelings, inclusivity, reducing competition, etc. It's still split between orange and blue but there have been plenty of pure stage green organizations and groups that form in the form of hippie communes or intentional communities and they always fall apart because fundamentally stage green is anti logic due to its rejection of stage orange and thus throws the baby out with the bathwater with structures that work.

Communism is the best example where it's a purely untenable idea and stage red/blue leaders co-opt the philosophical frame work to create states with it like the USSR and Cuba and end up killing the idealists that originally championed those thoughts. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Some people have a calling for God before they even learn about spirituality.  

[Heaven]

You look at life in a selfish manner rather than seeking Truth.

It’s a bandaid for your unhappiness. 
Looking on life is such a narrow perspective will come back at you eventually and then you will grow up.

Its a normal process moving from Blue in the spiral upwards 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

On 8/9/2026 at 4:44 PM, Majed said:

Dating wise actualized.org focuses on pick up artistry and hook up culture. Which i would argue is dramatically less fulfilling than islamic marriage and raising a family. 

I was almost involved in a Muslim marriage because of my family trying to set me up in an arranged marriage situation.

I can tell you that Islamic marriages are backwards, primitive mentality, and its not something you want to get involved with. 

Their attitudes towards marriage comes with all sorts of problems because its incredibly outdated in the modern world. 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Husseinisdoingfine

[enchanted]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

I was almost involved in a Muslim marriage because of my family trying to set me up in an arranged marriage situation.

I can tell you that Islamic marriages are backwards, primitive mentality, and its not something you want to get involved with. 

Their attitudes towards marriage comes with all sorts of problems because its incredibly outdated in the modern world. 

The modern world has worse outcomes for marriage and the couples report being unhappier in modern marriages. 

70% of our happiness is tied to our relationships yet the modern world leaves this part of our lives to chance and "feelings" of young inexperienced people. Why not take a lesson from traditional cultures and get the wisdom of the elders involved and the trial and error of thousands of years?

Leo as said similar too regarding the modern world being less happy. 

https://youtu.be/kRMcimuuk0Q?si=S-NNUkqBLeMCe03V

^Great interview with Allen De Botton regarding this topic in Big Think

 

Edited 16 hours ago by enchanted

[Leo Gura]

Islam is designed for pre-rational minds.

Actualized.org is designed for post-post-rational minds.

In a certain sense it is easier to be happy as a pre-rational mind. Then again, if you think Muslims are truly happy, you are kidding yourself.

Edited 15 hours ago by Leo Gura

[LordFall]

32 minutes ago, enchanted said:

The modern world has worse outcomes for marriage and the couples report being unhappier in modern marriages. 

70% of our happiness is tied to our relationships yet the modern world leaves this part of our lives to chance and "feelings" of young inexperienced people. Why not take a lesson from traditional cultures and get the wisdom of the elders involved and the trial and error of thousands of years?

Leo as said similar too regarding the modern world being less happy. 

https://youtu.be/kRMcimuuk0Q?si=S-NNUkqBLeMCe03V

^Great interview with Allen De Botton regarding this topic in Big Think

 

Worst outcomes sure because divorce is not tolerated much in Islamic and other religious communities, do you have statistics for reporting being unhappier in modern marriages?

[Stick]

3 hours ago, enchanted said:

The modern world has worse outcomes for marriage and the couples report being unhappier in modern marriages. 

70% of our happiness is tied to our relationships yet the modern world leaves this part of our lives to chance and "feelings" of young inexperienced people. Why not take a lesson from traditional cultures and get the wisdom of the elders involved and the trial and error of thousands of years?

Leo as said similar too regarding the modern world being less happy. 

https://youtu.be/kRMcimuuk0Q?si=S-NNUkqBLeMCe03V

^Great interview with Allen De Botton regarding this topic in Big Think

 

the reason similar statistics regarding happiness of a couple is not reflected in traditional marriages is because you are not allowed to report unsatisfaction.

[Something Funny]

"Watching Sponge bob is better than watching documentaries because you can just happily binge it with your brains turned" off kind of logic.

Edited 11 hours ago by Something Funny

[Schizophonia]

7 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

I was almost involved in a Muslim marriage because of my family trying to set me up in an arranged marriage situation.

I can tell you that Islamic marriages are backwards, primitive mentality, and its not something you want to get involved with. 

Their attitudes towards marriage comes with all sorts of problems because its incredibly outdated in the modern world. 

 

I will do a topic about it 

[emil1234]

i would never want to live in an islamic society. most dangerous, primitive culture in the world. we already have more than enough of it here in europe 

Edited 9 hours ago by emil1234

[Basman]

17 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This is just my opinion so take it as only that.  I do not see a strict duality between religion and spirituality.  I think that is an unnecessary wall or boundary to make.   

Religious traditions are very oriented around survival and hierarchy, usually of survival challenges that existed 1000+ years ago. There's nothing spiritual about banning pork for example. But they are dogmatic about their traditions and rules, even if they make no sense. 

[Sandroew]

Well, now im triggered and so even if im not interested in debating (one day i wont be useless i swear), i’ll call you out because you are wrong on so many levels.

17 hours ago, LordFall said:

We are basically in the west already half living in a stage green society.

Thats definitely not accurate, even if i want to be optimistic its 30% blue, 40% orange and 30% green. Its not easy to estimate, because if you remember its not that a person is overwhelmingly one color, its always a mixture. If you want to look at political parties the greens and the “extreme leftists” are nowhere near close to be half of the population. If you want to look at corporations, they have nearly zero green values. If you want to look at capital owners, its older people which are over represented with blue people. When Leo came out with Spiral Dynamics he said nearly half the population was blue ( 40 to 50 %) which he based on the real data that was gathered during the study. Some time has passed since then, but its very safe to say the world wouldnt look like this if nearly half the population were green.

18 hours ago, LordFall said:

stage green is not a viable structure for a group to operate in long term.
they always fall apart because fundamentally stage green is anti logic due to its rejection of stage orange and thus throws the baby out with the bathwater with structures that work.

You probably mean that stage green has a shadow if orange was not properly integrated, but thats just false representation. You do understand that every stage has a healthy version thats superior to the stages before it, right? When i read this i felt like your understanding of SD is skewed and partial.

18 hours ago, LordFall said:

Communism is the best example where it's a purely untenable idea

You definitely didnt do research on that and thats okay. We are not writing research papers here. But i would just generally advise you to keep an open mind instead of being so self assured all the time. Confidence is good, but dont be a fool.

[enchanted]

10 hours ago, LordFall said:

Worst outcomes sure because divorce is not tolerated much in Islamic and other religious communities, do you have statistics for reporting being unhappier in modern marriages?

I don't. Good point. 

[LordFall]

2 hours ago, Sandroew said:

Well, now im triggered and so even if im not interested in debating (one day i wont be useless i swear), i’ll call you out because you are wrong on so many levels.

Thats definitely not accurate, even if i want to be optimistic its 30% blue, 40% orange and 30% green. Its not easy to estimate, because if you remember its not that a person is overwhelmingly one color, its always a mixture. If you want to look at political parties the greens and the “extreme leftists” are nowhere near close to be half of the population. If you want to look at corporations, they have nearly zero green values. If you want to look at capital owners, its older people which are over represented with blue people. When Leo came out with Spiral Dynamics he said nearly half the population was blue ( 40 to 50 %) which he based on the real data that was gathered during the study. Some time has passed since then, but its very safe to say the world wouldnt look like this if nearly half the population were green.

You probably mean that stage green has a shadow if orange was not properly integrated, but thats just false representation. You do understand that every stage has a healthy version thats superior to the stages before it, right? When i read this i felt like your understanding of SD is skewed and partial.

You definitely didnt do research on that and thats okay. We are not writing research papers here. But i would just generally advise you to keep an open mind instead of being so self assured all the time. Confidence is good, but dont be a fool.

That's exactly my point. Stage green is so untenable that it cannot stand on it's on, it can only take hold in society once it integrates the lower states and evolves into stage yellow. Green is unique because no other stage really throws away the fundamental stages of society like it does. There can be functional albeit toxic societies in stage purple, red, blue and orange but green is so emotional that it believes in anarchy or like I said communism.

The reason there are no green corporations is because they don't work. Coops have been tried for a long time, it's not a new thing they are just not competitive entities. To exist in reality you need to competitive against the other entities or individuals that exist in your environment and green decides its a good idea to stop competiting and thus drastically lowers its impact on society.

You seem massively triggered for some reason. If you want to debate further, I'd love to.

> You definitely didnt do research on that and thats okay. We are not writing research papers here. But i would just generally advise you to keep an open mind instead of being so self assured all the time. Confidence is good, but dont be a fool.

Good job being condescending, I've read the whole communist manifesto and attended multiple in person communist events in different cities as I'm interested in their viewpoints and like discussing economic theory.

I'm quite confident I can eviscerate you on any point you bring up regarding spiral dynamics or communism so if you'd like we can do this debate streamed live. DM me on here or on Instagram and let's set it up, I have some free time in the evenings this week or on the weekend. 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by LordFall

[Nivsch]

@Majed But you describe an ideal version of this, which is very difficult to reach for the average person. The ability of a domain to mobilize people upward towards healthier and higher version of living life is the litmus test for its goodness. If only 5% of people in a given religion (be it Islam, Judaism or Christianity) can become really fulfilled then it isn't good enough.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nivsch

[emil1234]

6 hours ago, Basman said:

Religious traditions are very oriented around survival and hierarchy, usually of survival challenges that existed 1000+ years ago. There's nothing spiritual about banning pork for example. But they are dogmatic about their traditions and rules, even if they make no sense. 

they also ban dancing and dogs. wtf

[Sandroew]

@LordFall I literally prefaced my post with that im not interested in debating. I wasnt actually triggered you know. Figure of speech and all that.

I based my opinion about you not being open minded on multiple posts of yours. I read quite a bit from you lately. You are clearly and intelligent guy and im clearly not good at not sounding condescending.

Now you are dreaming about humiliating me on instagram because i called you out ? Check your ego bro.

[LordFall]

26 minutes ago, Sandroew said:

@LordFall I literally prefaced my post with that im not interested in debating. I wasnt actually triggered you know. Figure of speech and all that.

I based my opinion about you not being open minded on multiple posts of yours. I read quite a bit from you lately. You are clearly and intelligent guy and im clearly not good at not sounding condescending.

Now you are dreaming about humiliating me on instagram because i called you out ? Check your ego bro.

It's not about humiliation, it's about intellectual integrity. Your post was condescending and of course since you lack aforementioned integrity you back down from a good faith intellectual exchange in a format where we can actually exchange ideas in real time while meeting eachother instead of keyboard warrior back and forth.

No worries if you aren't interested in having the debate. I would be careful with being jumping to conclusions when encountering ideas that surpass your level of knowledge, as it opens you up to all kinds of intellectual blindspots. Posturing is never good for growth.

Edited 21 minutes ago by LordFall

[Sandroew]

@LordFall Glad we reached an agreement. Keep doing you.