She wants kids - I don't. Give up SEX and companionship?

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Yes it is.

You are assuming a level of sexual abundance that only exists for exceptional men. And even then, those men are chronic liars to maintain that abundance. Every single guy who has that kind of sexual abundance is either exceptionally good looking or a liar.

Not sure if that's true. I've known guys in college that hooked up quite a bit by going out to bars. And they were average looking guys... and not particularly dishonest. Just regular guys who happened to be social and outgoing.

My perception is that women out at clubs and bars are not so difficult to pick-up because that setting is already primed for that kind of thing. And the guy definitely doesn't need to be Brad Pitt... though it helps if he's a 4 or above in level of attractiveness.

If you don't mind my asking, what were your numbers when you were doing pick-up regularly... in terms of approach rate, phone number rate, and close rate?

For example, is it like for every 100 girls you approach you get 5 phone numbers and 1 close? 

Honestly, if it's more difficult than that... why not give men advice on how to build their own social circle around themselves? (Not the OP specifically)

Most of these guys are just nerdy guys looking to get their first girlfriend. There's no need to be on hard-mode approaching a bunch of randos unless you want to have sex with a bunch of women.

Honestly, a co-ed social circle would help like 60% of the guys in this section of the forum tremendously.

[ZenSwift]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

My perception is that women out at clubs and bars are not so difficult to pick-up because that setting is already primed for that kind of thing. 

From my experience, girls are primed to reject you even harder in a club setting because she knows she is going to get hit on, and probably has been hit on several times by the time I show up. So now they've got that rejection momentum. Especially if she is with her friends, which she always is, they feel that they can be extra impolite about it. 

[ZenSwift]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

No.

You don't understand how sex works for men.

As a woman you can go to any bar, any night, and get laid with no strings attached. A man cannot do that.

You underestimate the difficulty for men to get laid by a factor of 100x. When that is your view of it, yeah, it seems like no integrity needs to be compromised. Every single man compromises integrity to get laid because if he didn't he would be starved of sex for years. This is unimaginable to a woman.

You are thinking of the average man as having the attractive pull of a Brad Pitt, a celebrity, or a world-class pickup coach. That's not how it is for average guys. When you are not Brad Pitt, you have to settle for scraps just to get laid rarely. And you do not want to commit to scraps. But even scraps will refuse to have sex without commitment.

You have fantasies of how this works because the truth of it is far too painful to know.

Men have way less options than women understand, unless the men are exceptional. But women only think about exceptional men and project that exceptionality on all men.

Go look at what options an Incel has. He will be lucky to get one woman in 5 years. And that will be a poorly matched woman who is barely worth having sex with. But she will expect a commitment.

Facts. 

This is so unbelievably validating to read. 

[aurum]

I'd say the majority of times I've pulled a woman from a bar / club, I've had to punk at least one other guy.

So it's not even just whether or not she likes you. It's other men you have to deal with half the time.

[Miguel1]

@Emerald You talk like it’s so easy to build a social life as an average guy without natural social skills.

And there’s a ton of them out there.

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

I'd say the majority of times I've pulled a woman from a bar / club, I've had to punk at least one other guy.

So it's not even just whether or not she likes you. It's other men you have to deal with half the time.

Punk as in? 

 

 

[Raze]

Leo is an introvert who never studied social circle game most likely.

Most social circle game advice is worse than even cold approach advice and was barely a think when he was learning game.

 

[aurum]

2 minutes ago, Raze said:

Punk as in? 

Like a social skirmish over the girl.

[Emerald]

35 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

@Emerald You talk like it’s so easy to build a social life as an average guy without natural social skills.

And there’s a ton of them out there.

Even if it's difficult, it's still a more beneficial strategy for nerdy guys.

I've had a lot of nerdy guy friends in my time. And they all had girlfriends and had sex by their late teens.

And I have to conclude that the primary difference between them and a lot of young nerdy guys today is because they had a warm social circle with both guys and girls in it.

Like, the fact that all the nerdy guys I've been friends with haven't struggled as much in this way is because they were social (even if socially awkward)... and they had me and other women in their social circle.

Plus, not having a warm social circle is a problem in MANY more ways than just a lack of sexual options. Lack of community is extremely unhealthy for people. And men tend to struggle with this a lot.

[RendHeaven]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You underestimate the difficulty for men to get laid by a factor of 100x.

Even more.

A woman literally cannot understand.

[Emerald]

47 minutes ago, aurum said:

I'd say the majority of times I've pulled a woman from a bar / club, I've had to punk at least one other guy.

So it's not even just whether or not she likes you. It's other men you have to deal with half the time.

That makes sense that that would be a challenge if there's far more men who are up for hook-ups than women. 

If it's 1 woman who's up for a hook-up for every 10 men looking for a hook-up, I could see that being a challenge.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

Even more.

A woman literally cannot understand.

I can understand why it feels more difficult from men's perspective. And certainly it's more difficult for men than for women.

But I do suspect that a lot of the sense of difficulty and scarcity comes from some degree of projection... and not necessarily the reality of the situation itself with regard to actual numbers.

So, because men have to approach and overcome insecurities to do so, this may give an illusion that exacerbates the feelings of scarcity... when there are probably more opportunities than men recognize.

[Lyubov]

I think women both underestimate and do not understand what most men have to go through in order to have a relationship with a woman of any kind. I also think this type of guy, “incel” for lack of a better word, is sort of over represented on this forum. By my estimate they account from anywhere 1/5 to 1/2 of men depending where you are. 

[Lyubov]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But I do suspect that a lot of the sense of difficulty and scarcity comes from some degree of projection... and not necessarily the reality of the situation itself with regard to actual numbers.

So, because men have to approach and overcome insecurities to do so, this may give an illusion that exacerbates the feelings of scarcity... when there are probably more opportunities than men recognize.

A lot of it comes from just not being educated or having experience, which takes time to learn. Don’t assume men and women start off the same in this domain. You are born and then when you reach the right age have to do almost nothing to have men come after you. For men, you have to develop aspects of yourself which are not evident, and take all sorts of resources and time. You aren’t born with a manual for all the different things you will encounter in life so a lot of it is purely trial and area and grinding to level up. Building attraction for themselves and desirability is a quality that is developed in men not something bestowed upon them like with women. For women it’s just their feminine way and looks. For men it requires learning and developing for sometimes years beforehand. 

Edited Thursday at 07:30 AM by Lyubov

[Emerald]

14 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

A lot of it comes from just not being educated or having experience, which takes time to learn. Don’t assume men and women start off the same in this domain. You are born and then when you reach the right age have to do almost nothing to have men come after you. For men, you have to develop aspects of yourself which are not evident, and take all sorts of resources and time. You aren’t born with a manual for all the different things you will encounter in life so a lot of it is purely trial and area and grinding to level up. Building attraction for themselves and desirability is a quality that is developed in men not something bestowed upon them like with women. For women it’s just their feminine way and looks. For men it requires learning and developing for sometimes years beforehand. 

I don't deny that women have it very easy if the goal is to get sex and to have men interested. I'm not saying men and women have it the same in terms of level of ease of access to sex, at all. Women can get sex 100x easier than a guy can.

It's honestly more difficult to avoid sex if you're a woman... because it comes hunting for you. And that's its own problem, but that's a totally different story.

But I have seen plenty of men be successful in these ways that didn't have any kind of special qualities or development... with many being below average across many fields.

I tend to think all of that development that a lot of guys do to learn how to talk to women is akin to Dumbo's magic feather.

Dumbo believed he could only fly when holding the magic feather. But he had simply mis-correlated the feather with the flying. He could fly without the feather too... he just didn't know it and he doubted himself.

But the feather helped him attribute his own success with flying to the feather instead of to himself... which assuaged his doubts.

So, a lot of the ways that men develop themselves relative to meeting women is like Dumbo's magic feather in the sense that they didn't' really need to do that to meet a woman and have sex. But they didn't dare approach until they engaged in those means of developing themselves.

In reality, they just put themselves out there and were willing to be social with women. That was the thing that changed. And any man who's willing to be social with women can get laid, even if he's quite awkward.

So, I'm not saying it's easy. There's a head game about it.

But I'm saying that, if some of the guys I've known have been able to make it happen, it can't be the most difficult thing in the world to pull off.

That's what makes it seem like more of a limiting belief thing to my perceptions, because I've seen with my eyes really unattractive and social inept guys having girlfriends and getting laid.

So, it seems pretty evident to me that the sense of scarcity men perceive relative to sex is exacerbated by certain mindsets and beliefs. The scarcity is not as extreme as they believe.

[Spiral]

It is a bit entertaining that if a girls like me, she will be certain I have lots of other women in my life. That I have abundance, that might not be true and they are almost impossible to convince of this. 
 

It not a meaningful endeavor.

Edited Thursday at 08:03 AM by Spiral

[Magnanimous]

@Leo Gura

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Every single guy who has that kind of sexual abundance is either exceptionally good looking or a liar.

What percentage? Top 0.5%? Top 0.1%? 

[meta_male]

The truth is probably about what stage you're in.

When you’re awkward, isolated, starved of connection and have zero social momentum @Leo Gura's view is like gospel. No amount of “just be more social” advice helps when you’ve never felt at ease around groups of people.

But once you do get some traction, you have a social circle and can show up present @Emerald's view starts making more sense. You see more openings and your mindset shifts from scarcity to abundance and you start to see yourself become more attractive. Only then can you stop trying so hard.

The trap is thinking you can skip that shift and still expect tangible results. Sadly, some guys talking about this have never made it far enough to see both sides. So they argue from whichever side they're currently on.

[AION]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm hardly talking about Brad Pitt. I'll remind you that I'm originally from a redneck town in Florida with all manner of odd people.

And I know tons of very unattractive guys who were getting girlfriends and hooking up just because they had a social circle that had women in it and were interacting with women regularly.

Perhaps I'm biased because I've definitionally only interacted with men who have women in their social circle. But the reality is that, if you develop a social circle with women in it, you can definitely get laid no problem.

I know a guy who was super creepy with a high pitched voice... and who looked like a walrus with the white whiskers and everything... and he still hooked up with a couple girls in my wider social circle.

So, I'm sure that men who have no social circle might find it difficult to get laid because they need to learn how to approach random women. But any man who has a co-ed social circle and who is social will be able to find someone to sleep with.

Social circle game works but incels don’t have a social circle. I noticed that if you are in a social circle, the girls compete with each other for a guy and that is what gets them laid. It is not the guy doing anything than just being and not doing something stupid to fuck it up. Pickup guys and such are doing non social game and that makes things a lot more difficult because women need social proof or you need to offer something else like looks / charisma / funniness. 

Edited Thursday at 09:59 AM by AION

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, Lyubov said:

For men it requires learning and developing for sometimes years beforehand. 

No at all it's instant if your let yourself go to your true nature.

Everything is already present but just repressed by the superego