Is the US now at war with Iran? (US vs. Iran Discussion)

[Inliytened1]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Deep underground they can still build their nukes.

And it's amazing what good intelligence can reveal.  People have a real hard time keeping a secret.  Everyone has a price.  Even where nukes get built. 

Edited June 22 by Inliytened1

[Lyubov]

I think Iran will still get a nuke somehow, probably through their own technology.

[Jayson G]

6 hours ago, BlueOak said:

This is somewhat transferable, given they support the current government enough to legtimize the action. Though hate is not productive to hold on to, it won't do anything on its own, or produce a state of mind where you can alter much for the better, or even navigate it.

I am aware enough that I know the average American, Russian, Israeli, or Chinese man etc or woman is just trying to get by and meet their 6 human needs. Just like I am, just like you are. But they do legtimize their own governments one way or the other. With authoritarian governments (all of those I have listed) I understand the inherent risk in opposing them, and the level of suppression people face.  Still there is a significant enough portion of the population supporting the government for it to remain in power, else it would fall to anarchy.

So to say Americans, Russians, Chinese and Israeli are warlike, aggressive, dangerous people is not without merit.

 

@BlueOak Yeah wow you have a good point. I didn't realize that. It's not just the handful of people in government but millions and millions of americans supporting that government. 

But I try to remind myself that every human is unique. I am very disappointed by Israel's actions and US actions as a US citizen, and I have to keep reminding myself not to hate the average israeli person because I know most of them are good at heart, even if many have false beliefs. 

But yeah overall good point, tons of us are complicit on some level with the government's actions, even if its just in paying taxes, etc. 

[Jayson G]

2 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

I feel the same. 
 

The sad, unbiased truth is Israel and America are being like the axis right now. They are being evil. Genocide, aggression, criminal, breaking intl law. 
 

So I can’t really defend us in this scenario. I’m even considering leaving the US. I’m frankly shocked we helped Israel and how asleep the whole world seems about it.

 

This isn’t about nukes it’s about power, regime change and ethnic cleansing. 

@BlessedLion I think about leaving US all the time. Sometimes the evil commited by US can weigh on the mind a lot. Turning a blind eye is also not a complete solution either. It's like what just stay in denial? 

Though if you're concerned about your safety in USA, I think generally you and I should be fine, even if a full blown war erupts out of this strike. But yeah from just an "evil" perspective, it is something to question whether to stay here and be a part of this. 

I even unconsciously don't acknowledge all of USA's evil just because that would create deep internal conflict inside. 

[LordFall]

You guys do remember that Iran is an authoritarian dictatorial regime with 10% approval rating that beats and terrorize their citizens into submission right?

Why do you ignore the fact that they have several nuclear facilities and have a stated goal of destroying Israel? You can easily argue that Israel and the US are perfectly justified in these attacks and that the civilians are unfortunate collateral damage that are being held hostage by the regime. 

[zazen]

What objectives have been achieved by Israel-US?

Firstly what are the main objectives: deny (nuclear capability) and depose (current regime).

They will rationalise away why this strike was a success and move the goalpost of course. “Our objective was to delay their ability to enrich” when we know it’s to deny Iranians any ability to begin with.

- the facility hasn’t been fully destroyed, uranium material and parts have most likely been moved 

- no regime change in site

You can’t bomb knowledge out of existence - the technical knowhow in the nuclear domain still exists. All this has done is reinforced the strategic logic of needing a nuclear deterrent.

One positive that may come out of this depends on Irans last move of ritual escalation. All parties involved will have been provided an off ramp to save face and de-escalate back to the negotiating table (less likely imo) or status quo.

Israel - US can signal their symbolic mountain hit as a win, Iran can signal whatever they hit next as a win. But it depends on if the other side responds back and continues up the escalation ladder.

 

 

Edited June 22 by zazen

[Jodistrict]

A video with some interesting points:

When asked that previously they were running against endless wars, JD Vance said that the difference is that now we have a smart president and all the other presidents were dumb.

Both Marco Rubio and JD Vance when asked directly said “no, we are not at war with Iran” after a direct attack on Iran.

The head of the US counter terrorism is a 22 years old, whose recent work experience is landscaping and a grocery clerk.

What can go wrong?  We are led by geniuses!    What a clown show.

 

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But pissing them off and not eliminating their capacity is not wise.

It's like slapping a hornet.

Deep underground they can still build their nukes.

If they can build their nukes Deep underground, then how would or did the official inspectors in the US and around the world know whether or not Iran was secretly building their nukes underground when the Iran nuclear deal was in place?

Do you think it's naive to ever trust Iran to ever hold up their end of a deal, especially given how primitive they still are and how much they've threatened the US and the rest of the Western world for decades? 

Also, what about the fact that Khamenei is the leader of a regime that sponsors terrorist organizations, has used proxy warfare to extend its power in the Middle East, and the government he controls has enabled terrorism abroad even though he doesn’t directly lead a terrorist group?

[zazen]

16 minutes ago, LordFall said:

You guys do remember that Iran is an authoritarian dictatorial regime with 10% approval rating that beats and terrorize their citizens into submission right?

Why do you ignore the fact that they have several nuclear facilities and have a stated goal of destroying Israel? You can easily argue that Israel and the US are perfectly justified in these attacks and that the civilians are unfortunate collateral damage that are being held hostage by the regime. 

Moral imperfection and shortcomings of state doesn’t give license for another state to act imperially against them. Especially when we know they don’t actually care about those issues to begin with but instead use them as moral cover for imperial interest.

What is fact is that one country has nukes and is the only one to have ever used them (twice on Japanese civilian packed cities) - the other country is the only country with a official policy of nuclear ambiguity and is a ethno-apartheid state committing genocide.

Edited June 22 by zazen

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

Moral imperfection and shortcomings of state doesn’t give license for another state to act imperially against them. Especially when we know they don’t actually care about those issues to begin with but instead use them as moral cover for imperial interest.

What is fact is that one country has nukes and is the only one to have ever used them (twice on Japanese civilian packed cities) - the other country is the only country with a official policy of nuclear ambiguity and is a ethno-apartheid state committing genocide.

 

How can you gulp up blatant propaganda completely uncritically like that?

Iran has no significant military capacity, their danger lies in funding proxy groups that have been destabilizing the region of decades and lead to countless amounts of civilian deaths. Nobody in the region likes Iran, to Iran, Arabs are subhuman.

[zazen]

11 hours ago, zazen said:

@Inliytened1 They’re building to deter Western misadventure, not destroy.

Why didn’t the US stick to the JCPOA?

 

 

6 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

If they can build their nukes Deep underground, then how would or did the official inspectors in the US and around the world know whether or not Iran was secretly building their nukes underground when the Iran nuclear deal was in place?

Do you think it's naive to ever trust Iran to ever hold up their end of a deal, especially given how primitive they still are and how much they've threatened the US and the rest of the Western world for decades? 

Also, what about the fact that Khamenei is the leader of a regime that sponsors terrorist organizations, has used proxy warfare to extend its power in the Middle East, and the government he controls has enabled terrorism abroad even though he doesn’t directly lead a terrorist group?

 

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

Moral imperfection and shortcomings of state doesn’t give license for another state to act imperially against them. Especially when we know they don’t actually care about those issues to begin with but instead use them as moral cover for imperial interest.

What is fact is that one country has nukes and is the only one to have ever used them (twice on Japanese civilian packed cities) - the other country is the only country with a official policy of nuclear ambiguity and is a ethno-apartheid state committing genocide.

I guess you forgot about Pearl Harbor.

[PurpleTree]

28 minutes ago, LordFall said:

You guys do remember that Iran is an authoritarian dictatorial regime with 10% approval rating that beats and terrorize their citizens into submission right?

Why do you ignore the fact that they have several nuclear facilities and have a stated goal of destroying Israel? You can easily argue that Israel and the US are perfectly justified in these attacks and that the civilians are unfortunate collateral damage that are being held hostage by the regime. 

Why do you ignore this?

 

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Iran has no significant military capacity, their danger lies in funding proxy groups that have been destabilizing the region of decades and lead to countless amounts of civilian deaths

Why? Do you know the history of the region? How did these proxies (Hezbollah and Hamas) come to exist and what is their purpose?

Are Hezbollah and Hamas based upon geopolitical struggles (related to Israeli occupation and aggression) or are their aspirations global (rather than localized) in a bid to expand Islamic purity such as Al-Qaeda or ISIS? These are key distinctions not to be overlooked.

Iran is reacting to imperialism, not being imperial itself.

[zazen]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I guess you forgot about Pearl Harbor.

So surprise attacks are bad now? Like what Israel just did? I guess it was just “preemptive” like what Israel just did.

The difference is that Pearl Harbour was act of war (military target) whilst Hiroshima and Nagasaki was act of horror (nuking civilians) which killed approximately 80’000 civilians in a instant on each day the bomb was dropped.

Nice try, next.

[Jayson G]

44 minutes ago, LordFall said:

You guys do remember that Iran is an authoritarian dictatorial regime with 10% approval rating that beats and terrorize their citizens into submission right?

Why do you ignore the fact that they have several nuclear facilities and have a stated goal of destroying Israel? You can easily argue that Israel and the US are perfectly justified in these attacks and that the civilians are unfortunate collateral damage that are being held hostage by the regime. 

@LordFall I actually didn't know that. 

I just asked ChatGPT lol .. 

"Yes, Iran is an authoritarian theocratic regime. It combines elements of a dictatorship and religious rule, with ultimate power held by the Supreme Leader, who is not elected by the public and has control over the military, judiciary, and media. Elections exist but are tightly controlled, with candidates vetted by unelected bodies." 

Yeah now I just don't know anymore. It's kind of frustrating having to sort out all this. 

Like if I had to objectively look at this. Okay so Iran is authoritarian, fine. But perhaps that is one factor. They state they want to destroy Israel, okay another factor if that is true. But also can US be trusted? Can Israel be trusted. Look at all the evil we have caused. Does that make it okay for us to invade them for some words they said and a specific government structure they have? Isn't it worse to kill tons of civilians in Gaza, and now Iran? Just because these words were exchanged and their government structure, doesn't even mean they have a nuclear weapon like Trump is claiming. And also even if the government is structured the way it is, that seems to be mostly internal politics in their own country. That doesn't make them a terrorist type government? 

What's worse, Iran saying they want to destroy Israel or USA and Israel killing tons of people over time like this? How do you know Iran isn't just angry for what Israel has become? 

@Leo Gura I was wondering your thoughts, is it okay to invade Iran because of their government structure, and what they have said? I'm just looking for truth and understanding here. 

Edited June 22 by Jayson G

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, zazen said:

Why? Do you know the history of the region? How did these proxies (Hezbollah and Hamas) come to exist and what is their purpose?

Are Hezbollah and Hamas based upon geopolitical struggles (related to Israeli occupation and aggression) or are their aspirations global (rather than localized) in a bid to expand Islamic purity such as Al-Qaeda or ISIS? These are key distinctions not to be overlooked.

Iran is reacting to imperialism, not being imperial itself.

Can you explain Oct 7th to us then if these groups are only reactive? 

Edited June 22 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

So surprise attacks are bad now? Like what Israel just did? I guess it was just “preemptive” like what Israel just did.

The difference is that Pearl Harbour was act of war (military target) whilst Hiroshima and Nagasaki was act of horror (nuking civilians) which killed approximately 80’000 civilians in a instant on each day the bomb was dropped.

Nice try, next.

The point is that Japan drew the US into the war..and now you are crying about how the US ended it.

Edited June 22 by Inliytened1

[zazen]

44 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Can you explain Oct 7th to us then if these groups are only reactive? 

Hezbollah came out of reaction to Israel’s invasion and occupation of Southern Lebanon in 1982.

Hamas came out of reaction to Israeli occupation, dispossession and denial of Palestinians right to self-determination, October 7th was a brutal outburst in reaction to being under a brutal seige for 16 years.

41 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The point is that Japan drew the US into the war..and now you are crying about how the US ended it.

And you aren’t crying the same way you are about October 7th, for something done at such horrific scale on an already defeated people - simply because the US wanted to flex its muscle on the world stage?

You think because someone starts something that gives you the right to end things however you want and just dismiss it as “it’s war bro, shit happens”. That’s just Darwinian might makes right logic which is the opposite of what makes people civilised and humane.

The point is that if Japan drew the US into war, then by that same logic, Israel’s decades of dispossession, siege, and ethnic cleansing drew Hamas into launching a brutal attack. Doesn’t make it noble - but it makes it understandable in the same way.

Edited June 22 by zazen

[Rafael Thundercat]

Tbis below is a speculation from a girl who I follow on social media

"Why did he choose Israel over Russia this time?"

Epstein's pedo tapes > Putin's pee-pee tapes. 

When Elon threatened him with the Epstein tapes, he sent the military to LA. 

Now remember that Epstein & Ghislaine Maxwell were both Mossad agents (and she's the daughter of one too). 

So ipso facto, by the transitive property, it's plausible Netanyahu threatened him with ALL his Epstein tapes, not just the ones the DOJ has and refuses to release. So what a coincidence, he sends bombs to Iran."