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@Applejuice It's important to understand that it's ok to commit suicide though. It can be a stressful thing to carry if you have thoughts that it is wrong! Remember, you are free! You can't be happy until you understand that. Paradoxically, when you understand that you are free and perfectly allowed to commit suicide, then that option often falls away. The same with ego. When people think they are a solid self, then comes responsibility, and often what follows is that you don't take responsibility, since it's viewed as a burdon or a fear of screwing up. On a contrary, when you understand that there are no responsibility or a self, then "you" often start acting responsible.

@LastThursday Yeah you raised some good points there. I'm not going to kill myself, it's not that I am depressed or have a miserable life, I just see it as better than life because the ego is gone and I'm not chasing shit forever and ever like I am now. But When there is no body there is no more ego as it is there to keep the body alive. When the body leaves the ego will dissolve and not be relevant. I think it will end suffering yeah. I mean that's what enlightenment is all about right? killing yourself but not your body so you're no longer constantly in survival selfish mode and so you're no longer suffering. I understand now that enlightenment is really what I need to do and not suicide. But I'm saying if there are no organisms to play this survival game there will be no ego and no suffering anywhere. When we are not alive, there is noone to survive and there is no ego we are the ultimate nature of reality always. I see life as sort of a prison we come into and end the suffering when we're dead. But we are wired to reproduce so that there are organisms that will be stuck in this cycle forever until extinct. When there is no life there is no suffering. All that remains is enlightenment.

Just to pick on one thing you said, I hope I'm not being too harsh: So - you invented a story for yourself that logic equates to suicide? You should ask yourself some deep questions about that statement. Firstly. Why did you invent this story about suicide? What was the purpose for you exactly? Was it for attention, or self satisfaction, or to make yourself feel bad, or you think it will end suffering, or some other set of reasons? Meditate on that, question the hell out of it. Secondly. What is your definition of logic? To me logic is where you start from a set of assumptions, then through a step by step process you reach a conclusion. What assumptions are you starting from? For example is it: life = meaningless = suffering = negative, death = meaning = peace = positive, therefore death is prefereable to life? Thirdly. Have you ever been dead yourself? If not, then how do you know that death is peace or preferable to life? You don't. And lastly. Suicide is not a thing or an object, it is a process. It has a beginning, a middle and sometimes an end. So what exactly does this process mean to you? Does it always end in death? Or is it possible it could end in life full of misery instead? You should really be asking yourself: 'I will keep asking myself if I can really use logic to justify starting a process called committing suicide which may go very wrong and end in a miserable life instead?'

I'll just throw this little fact that I have sitting around in my head out there https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/07/drinking-coffee-may-reduce-risk-of-suicide-by-50/

I liked jed's work when i read through his books really loved the poetry aspect and his no bullshit teaching style, I have a notepad where I kept lots of his quotes/poems, will post some copy paste of it since it's too long. We do get stuck into the spirituality pamper sometimes for too long with it's dogma, yet it's for the faint of heart that gradually lifts us, although i see a loop of getting stuck in it forever even after an awakening experience just as leo mentioned. “Wake up first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use to others if you still have the urge. Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness, or you’re just another shipwreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you.” “All fear is ultimately fear of no-self.” “The one and only truth of any person lies like a black hole at their very core, and everything else – EVERYTHING else – is just the rubbish and debris that covers the hole. Of course, to someone who’s just going about their normal human existence undistracted by the larger questions, that rubbish and debris is everything that makes them who they are. But to someone who wants to get to the truth, who they are is what’s in the way. All fear is ultimately fear of this inner black hole, and nothing on this side of that hole is true. The process of achieving enlightenment is about the breaking through the blockage and stepping through the hole.” “Maybe you think death is the opposite of life, or that all this death-awareness stuff translates into the end of happiness and good times, but this is not the case. Death isn't morbid, fear is morbid. Death doesn't oppose life, fear opposes life. To close your eyes to death is to close them to life: what could be more morbid than that? From your perspective, death and suicide are horrific and unthinkable. From my perspective, they are empowering and lifeaffirming. and I would look at any person that doesn't have an open, honest relationship with these subjects as themselves nine parts dead.” “I watch the group as Lawrence speaks. Its not always easy to remember that these people aren't like me: they look and sound awake, but they're not. They are asleep and dreaming. sleepwalking and sleeptalking. Their words make sense to them. inside their dreamworld, but from my perspective it's mostly mumbling. They seldom express a lucid thought or formulate a coherent question. In several minutes of uninterrupted discourse on Zen. Lawrence has not said anything that I recognize as being related to the topic of awaking from delusion.” Die while you’re alive and be absolutely dead. Then do whatever you want: it’s all good. Bunan You are dreaming that you are unenlightened. You are dreaming that you are awake. The question is: Why? The answer is: Why not? Jed McKenna The battle for truth Is waged upon untruth. When the flames have consumed all, and the smoke has cleared, Only truth remains. Destroy everything. Burn it all. Incinerate even your heart. Throw your soul into the furnace. This is the Great Conflagration. Nothing false will survive. Nothing true will perish. This is the process. This is the war. The battlefield is you. The battle is absolute. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. It will always be here, waiting. ~Jed Mckenna I am He. I am The Sage. I am The Superior Man. I am the Crown of Creation. I am daft, clouded, obscure. I eat when hungry, sleep when tired. I move with; not across, not against. I rub my chin at the appointed hour. I see only patterns. I have no eye for detail. I don’t go. Why go? Go where? It comes. I don’t try. I don’t do. Nothing goes undone. I don’t take sides. I have no preferred outcome. It’s all me. It’s all mine. Otherless, what’s to want? I have amazing powers! I get good tables in restaurants. I haven’t stubbed a toe in twelve years. I can destroy the universe with a thought. Jed McKenna The great path has no gates, thousands of roads enter it. When you pass through this gateless gate you walk the universe alone. Mumon The universe is the unity of all things. If one recognizes his identity with this unity, then the parts of his body mean no more to him than so much dirt, and death and life, end and beginning, disturb his tranquility no more than the succession of day and night. Chuang Tzu The sword is an ugly, meaty tool. Not one for pageants and ceremonies, not one for a collector’s wall, not one to show the grandkids. It has no scabbard, no tassel, no craftsman has left his mark. The handle is cracked and dry, the metal has lost its shine. Dull and dirty, pitted with age, dried blood caked at the hilt. Once it held a razor’s edge, and shone with the light of the sun. But now it sits unused, forgotten. When beheading time comes, I know right where it is. But beheading time is over. Why read about another’s sword? It’s your head that’s still attached. Jed McKenna As for the average sufi muslim that actually gets the oneness with god is quite different from the rest of what's practised right now, infact if i were to talk about onenessss with the muslims here at bahrain or UAE/kuwait/saudi arabia/qatar/oman etc any of the g.c.c countries, 90%+ would reject the idea of nothing and infinity true self and wouldn't even consider us as muslims. The same as how some muslims here reject ISIS as muslims even though they are muslims just in their own different distinction of what islam means to them.

I held back from joking about his name, I noticed this as well @Truth. @Joseph Maynor What else could you find that make him seem like a troll? That suicide post was so stereotypically evil to me it's hard to believe. Repeating that one idea over and over - letting thyself die - could be another sign but this is so @Etherish that I wouldn't be surprised if he really believed it

Nobody has wired their brain exactly like you have - so that makes you a FREAK. As for labelling, the universe is infinite. Thirdly, if this guy committed suicide the police would be all over his laptop and this forum asking Leo questions, so the fact Leo hasn't closed this thread just about proves this guy is a Troll IMO.

I think it could go either way. Regarding the suicide note Vanish left, when I was suicidal a few years ago I pretty much had a very similar thought process. Granted, I kept pushing forward and things eventually changed for me but I know from experience that that thought process really can come from a place of actually "wanting to be heard." I really agree with @aurum. However, if what he's saying is actually true regarding his stories leading up to that suicide note, e.g. that 25 day starvation period and meditating so intensely, I could see that also as an act of that shows his level of Zen Devilry. Overall I think this really does show the magnitude of what enlightenment work can cause and the importance of understanding what Zen Devilry is and how this path is not to be half-assed. Really shows that you are in a metaphorical sense really are playing with fire. I think this was especially important for me because I have a lot of emotional issues that I definitely could relate to with this kid in some ways and now I know just how those inner demons don't just automatically go away as a result of an enlightenment experience. If you're going to pursue Truth, do so with diligence and understanding of what it is you're actually doing.

@Truth All of this is relevant to what @Torkys means for the intro to this thread. That being said, might I suggest also considering kindness directly towards the "vanish" archetype (meaning suicidal people). How would you answer his questions? What we can do is have patience and not use egotistic impositions or advice about depression or suicide, except that advice as general as is possible for you in your current state. The more general, the more enlightened.

I dont know this person in real life, we have been communicating daily for a little over a year now over tumblr. The person is nice and we have alot of stuff in common (since we talk alot) but i notice they anger me a little bit too much to be friends. Basically this person is a heavy "past lives" believer and constantly is trying to reassure me that weve met before in multiple past lives. (Which i call bs). once they said they need to clear up their karma and said "im sorry ive abused you in the past life, im sorry i had more power over you.." and i do t know if this is just me being close minded but i think wtf? Then when i start getting pissed off they just say "its ok one day you will see what i mean" and whenever we thought of the same subject in a day, for example suicide in cults, they immediately point out how this is not a coincidence. Also they are from a south american country that they hate, so whenever i mention the word "brazil" or simply allude to that place they start attacking me "how could you, you know i have trauma from that word" etc. Last point is we were talking about religions, and he is a huge believer in witchcraft. He was talking about "low magic"-like spells, divination vs "high-order"magic like rituals i guess? And how the goal of both types is the same thing, the result of a spell or whatever. I then asked why does high order magic then go through all that extra hard work to achieve same thing as a low magic and then he said "wow i cant believe you said something so amateur" Is this person trying to manipulate me (i think the metaphysical ppl like to call them energetic vampires) or am i super close minded? Ive blocked them twice before but then i feel bad and start talking to said person again.

From my understanding, if you end the body with a mind that's still filled with rejection/attachment/fear, that's what you'll be faced with, and if letting go of it all will be too hard then (which I can imagine, after suicide especially), you'll be given a new life through workout the growth process.

I was deluded, I get it. But his excuse was really centered around "awakening". He tortures himself, writes this and commits suicide later: His excuse for doing the things he did was so convincing to himself that he asserted that's the truth and we all should know it. God fucking damn @aurum! You just had me, you get my biggest imaginary upvote. @pluto, this was beautiful. That quote spoke to me. Of fucking course @blazed. I can't deny that I created this post for selfish purposes. In case this does actually lead to a change, I could say I was the one who started it. Of course. I am an ego but this was - and is - the most authentic thing for me to do in this situation. You fail to understand something here. You say I create unnecessary suffering for myself - and for others. You try to show that talking about @vanish is useless and won't bring any good solely through reason. The resistance will always be there until it is released and authenticity is the source of all spiritual purification. I made people show their opinions and feelings (the latter most people here can handle). I manifested my life purpose in this very thread. The understanding that humans are rational or emotional creatures goes full circle. If you first try to calm down a person purely through reason and see it not working, you intuit that humans are emotional. But when you try to understand the root of the emotional problem, you see that it's rational.

Not sure why we needed a thread about it on top of his original thread. On average there is supposed to be 120 deaths by suicide per day on US alone. Then there is all the other kinds of brutal and unfair deaths. The importance of this person is only because you had some attention diverted towards him on this forum. The ego constructed a story/scenario and now the ego is fighting/debating about it about how sad it is and how reality should be all rainbows and sunshine. It's all in the mind. If he wanted to die and went through with it he manifested what his mind wanted at that moment. There's no point labelling it as good or bad. you feeling bad about it isn't going to change anything for him but it will make you unnecessarily feel worse. No one here is responsible for anything, and shouldn't feel guilt. Yes we all suffer when a loved one dies but it is all in the mind, the logical thinking and memory's and inability to accept change and let go of a person who was always bound to an ending. None of Leo's teachings points to physical death, only ego death or spiritual enlightenment, but one who seeks suicide will find what he ultimately seeks.

I feel like a prisoner in this world. I assume this is the reason why some choose to commit suicide. To escape the matrix. As the ultimate fuck you to whoever placed us here. I am not suicidal, nor depressed, but I admit that I do recognise some aspects of these conditions within me. I have adopted a non-seeking behaviour (or perhaps a passive-seeking behaviour). Why do I need to perform all these practices to realise something I didn't ask for? Why do I need to wake up everyday in a reality I didn't ask to be in, to follow a sequence of events that I don't believe in? It feels like groundhog day, except very very real. But I do admit I don't really know what real means. I don't have anything to compare it to. This realness just doesn't seem to give a fuck. It's indifferent. And for that reason I don't give a fuck about it... At times. At other times it seem to be one hell of an interesting place to be in, beyond beautiful. But this view is not pervasive. Is this an egoic mechanism at work, me trying to attack God, but only hurting myself in the process? Probably, but I can't seem to escape it. This perspective is persistent. The doubt and lack of trust I've experienced from the start of this journey has increased. It's like I'm trying to keep myself from knowing. Whenever I start to make progress in any practice, be it breathing exercises, Samadhi meditation, or psychedelic breakthroughs, I just seem to be pulled? back into complacency and homeostasis. It seems like I'm worse off than I was at the beginning. The frustration, wanting, needing, craving, desire is overwhelming. It makes my mind uneasy. Meditation does not help to lessen the uneasiness I'm experiencing. Neither does introspection. It makes it worse. For that reason I have considered giving up, or at the very least taking a break from all this. But I can't do that either. Not while I know that this path could lead to salvation. I'm feeling kinda lost at the moment, because I have no freaking clue what's going on, or what to do.

thats interesting.I had a forced nirvana enlightenment experience.I was in paradise...i saw the truth the love the freedom.But after two years i was fucked i was ready to suicide.So much pain in my heart.Is it attacks or is it just the + and - in life?

Once you transcend your consciousness into nirvana but not enlightened yet (not in kingdom of god state) your consciousness lose your body's protection and you are target for all kinds of vital forces that can make you to commit suicide. Buddha had many attacks of such kind just before his awakening under Bodhi tree. Second thing is the way he reached transcendental consciousness or witness state - ice bath and month in darkness and starvation - what the fak? Such techniques will drive anyone to insanity, people try to get fast results and eventually do wrong things, spiritual path has to do with energy and energetic mechanisms should be understood but he used brute force- God knows what happened to him but if it ended up badly then well he will probably reincarnate and start everything again, God is all forgiving.

That's really sad.But you know...at this point you feel nobody understands you.Suicide is a part in human nature.I believe he tried it.I also believe parents are responsible for that, in every circumstance a young individual commits suicide the parents are responsible.I believe parents are responsible for your 'normal' suffering too.Fuck people that become parents without real self development.In the forum there is so much pain...this is what forces us to change, if we were 'happy' we would not try.The only thing that matters is to stay alive.Its ok to feel pain to become sick but everything can be reversed if you are alive.If you trully believe you can change the situation everything is possible.I wish nobody feel the destructive pain of suicide.Pain can be destructive for the body or for the ego(which is the opossite)

To say he did it in the name of Truth is ridiculous. Likely he did it because he was suffering mentally. It became obvious with later threads that he was seriously psychologically disturbed. His initial thread where he talked about fasting and jumping into the ice water was a little intense, but not worthy of intervention. Within the context of this forum, extended fasting isn't exactly an alarm. He said he did it for 25 days drinking water, yes, but there weren't other details and he seemed fairly lucid. People go on juice fasts for 1 month, and that could have been what he meant. It sounded like he was just a dude who was pushing some physical limits, as is one approach that has been taken by others in the past. Btw, some people, like athletes, do ice baths regularly. Weird? Yes. Extreme? Maybe, but within context it wasn't cause for any particular alarm. He came across like a hardcore seeker. Not everyone in life does things softly, and we can't always assume the worst. In this case, Leo probably assumed what I assumed: that he's a little foolhardy, but admirable. In the first thread where he mentioned killing himself he was being cryptic and making it seem like he was seeking ego death rather than physical death. I left a half joking comment saying he should consider the suicide hotline because something felt really off... if you look at the posts, it's clear that not everyone thought he going to literally kill himself. When he implied potential self harm, Leo's statement both times very clear: don't do anything to harm yourself. Distorting these teachings to make that stuff okay is only something that can be done out of a very low and distorted level of consciousness - at that point it doesn't matter what teaching or teacher you put in front of them... they are going to reap their own distortions.

Suicide can be used as an experiment in willpower, but normally people who commit suicide don't do it for that reason. For example, in the Jaina (Jainism) tradition death (Santhara) has also been used to strengthen willpower. Phowa, is the "the practice of conscious dying" in Vajrayāna Buddhism.

Over the last year I've come around on Islam as my level of consciousness has increased. Firstly, Mohammed's project was a vast improvement on the tribalism of the Arab people some dozen centuries ago. (Of course, his success in this was partial. Arabs are still fairly tribal. But it was a necessary and moderately successful undertaking by all accounts.) This is something that probably escapes a lot of Islam's critics. (BTW, same applies to Genghis Khan and his empire.) Secondly, some very smart people have persuaded me that Islam is not unreformable. And they were right: pay attention to the social and legal changes in the heart of Islam (Saudi Arabia.) Women will have near-Western type equality with men within a decade. They are doing something very smart: instead of inviting endless culture wars as we have now in the West, they are building cities with relaxed, Western-type laws and culture. Localism is best, localism works, people need to stop trying to inflict their vision on one another. Live and let live. Allow for religious enclaves and liberal enclaves. This is real diversity. Iranian mullahs will likely be deposed within a year or two. Iran is already fairly Western in outlook, so the reforms there may come even faster. We're at the tail end of the radical Sunni Islamic extremism era that began post-Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, where the O.J.s (Original Jihadis) honed their chops; roughly from early 1990s. We are now in the mopping up phases. ISIS is nearly toast; Hezbollah will be taken care of within a year or two. You will get lone wolf (and maybe small group) attacks for awhile because there are now Jihadist breeding grounds in Europe, but eventually Europe will decide suicide is not the answer and proceed accordingly. So I say we're done with it by 2025 or so. I would guess it's closer to 111, but that's still the highest of any group, and when you get to the higher edges (130+ and 140+) it really becomes out of proportion to the general population. The reason for that is likely a form of what I call "literacy eugenics." Ashkenazi Jews have been what some historians call "service nomads" throughout the last millenium or more (tax collectors, highly skilled tradesmen, physicians, merchants, etc.) More IQ demanding professions than, e.g. farming. (Especially math and verbal; visuospatial less so.) So there was likely a filtering process of those who couldn't hack it and had to leave the group.

vanish.....I don't know how old you are, but as you've noticed, suicide attempts are not helping this situation...also, you don't have to trust your parents. Life is not black and white. The self-construction vs. destruction. There's no vs. You could take things from the construction to destruction, or vice versa and follow either, and they would be equally valid. And you are valid. So you need to live. Another suggestion is, find a "great teacher" and/or "guardian" who doesn't criticize others and has the wisdom to be thankful for correction.....

Egoless, that is a good point. And more generally speaking, what is the point in seeking enlightenment, because the YOU that is seeking the enlightenment is the YOU that is going to die. It's basically suicide, so why does it want that? Or does it? What does it think it will get out of it?

@Leo Gura I am on your side... I am not fighting you why don’t you understand. I want you to collapse the duality once and forever. If you had the biggest realization possible on 5 Meo as you say then why is your experience and perception still dualistic? I am only trying to tell you to be more skeptical towards those drugs... Openmindedness is good but there are lines. You don’t know what side effects these drugs could have on you in a long run. I just want you to be healthy and you take my wake up calls as an assault... I am on your side man! @kieranperez It’s not about what I like. You never know the side effects of the drugs in the long run. Especially such a powerful one as 5 Meo... It may drive you insane. Who studied them long run... there is so little known. And Leo uses psychadelics heavily as far as I know. I just want him to be more skeptical and careful not to hurt himself... Moreover sharing what he sees on drugs on youtube is dangerous imho. Because people who never experienced themselves can just turn it into a belief system which may lead to nihilism. There were some posts about suicide lately. I’m not saying it’s because of Leo... We don’t know what caused delusions... but everyone should be more careful when sharing perspectives... There is a reason why most Enlightened people don’t talk about Truth directly!!!

A distant friend of our family recently took his life due to years of depression. Apparently, he saw his own suicide as the only possible solution. Hypothesis: Wouldn't it make sense to treat highly suicidal people with 5-Meo-DMT? I mean, if they are so depressed that they are going to take their life anyway, why not try to get them back on track with psychedelics?

@SpaceCowboy Psychedelics in general should be highly effective for treating depression. The problem is, people misuse psychedelics because they don't do the research and refuse to follow proper protocol. If one is already on the brink of suicide then trying any solution is better than doing nothing.