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Actually both affirmation and negation techniques have it's place in Vedic tradition. The seeker would affirm ''I am HE'' or ''I am BRAHMAN'' as a mantra million times a day in meditation. The seeker would do neti neti (negation); which is mentally negating everything in present experience that is not me. Ramana Maharshi criticized both these techniques as not being direct enough. He said when you ask ''Who am I?'', you are not after an affirmation or answer like ''I am Brahman'' nor you just mentally label things as ''not me not me''. ''Who am I?'' is a question that invites you to take a silent journey deeper and deeper into your present experience...this is what Ramana Maharshi declared as the most direct path. With that being said, neti neti is a very helpful technique that refines intellect to discriminate between the Seer and the seen. It builds a solid intellectual foundation and later helps a lot in self inquiry.

You've got it spot on my friend! The very purpose of doing neti neti is to refine the intellect more and more. Normally, a person is totally identified with the contents of his experience. At one point, this discrimination skill gets so sharp that clever thoughts like 'I want enlightnement' and intellect itself is seen as another subtle object. At this point, neti neti collapses as a mental labeling or intellectual categorizing. A holistic, pure, effortless Witnessing takes place. This is what J. Krishnamurti called choiceless Awareness. It was always there, now it shines and you know it first hand. Great that you've had this breakthrough

This has helped me quite a bit so far but right now I have to say "this happens in the intellect" does not have to be true any longer for me. And I think neti neti has a limitation in there, as long as the intellect is involved. Only when I let go of the intellect, of the desire to discriminate or do anything, could I go deeper. But it's also important to say that this feels like a progression. First discrimination was crucial, now I see even it standing in the way. Same with the general idea of "I want to become enlightened" - very important in the beginning but huge obstacle later on. At least for me.

@Jack River I would also say, perhaps you should try neti-neti method yourself? To get your other questions answered. I'm just not sure what you're asking really.

@Jack River It's done through refined intellect or clear seeing without any judgement. Anything that is perceivable or conceivable is seen as unreal because they are all subject to change. If this process is consciously kept up, all 'objects' of Consciousness are seen as unreal and only Pure Consciousness remains. The self ceases to identify itself with any object ever again and shines as THE SELF. It was always THE SELF...it only appeared as the ego self due to ignorant identification. When that spell of ignorance is broken, only the Absolute is... That's when neti neti spontaneously comes to its end and what is prevails as it always is.

Jack river- "Neti neti, meaning, "Not this, not this", is the method of Vedic analysis of negation. It is a keynote of Vedic inquiry. With its aid the Jnani negates identification with all things of this world which is not the Atman, in this way he negates the Anatman. Through this gradual process he negates the mind and transcends all worldly experiences that are negated till nothing remains but the Self. He attains union with the Absolute by denying the body, name, form, intellect, senses and all limiting adjuncts and discovers what remains, the true "I" alone." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

@Anna1 how does that go again? Neti Neti ? What kind of questions do you ask?

@Jack River That's a different conversation. I didn't say anything about "who am i"? I was referring to neti-neti (not this, not that), which is "now" (present moment), not past.

@SoonHei Oh yes, I've tried it out lol. I do like it. I'm just wondering if it can both double as an emotional mastery and self-inquiry practice. I've never formally done any self-inquiry like neti neti or anything, so I couldn't really compare the two.

@Serotoninluv Well now I've actually experienced some real, tangible effects from my meditation I'm in it for the long haul. I was operating on faith before somewhat but I've been feeling high for two days straight now and my awareness is as sharp as a blade so I want more, more, give me MORE haha, na I know its not good to chase these states as firstly you can't rely on them and secondly they're a distraction on not the real deal, so I've read. Adyashanti warns against chasing feel-good states, seeing as your real, true state - the enlightened you, as you put it, is stateless. I think that's what he said anyway. The insights you mention, which come when your mind is empty...do you wait until after the meditation to contemplate them, or do you follow them when they occur? Or maybe they don't require any further contemplation. I'm just confused about how meditation, which is supposed to be about becoming 'thoughtless,' (unless you're doing neti neti or whatever) can be used for insights...

@Aquarius meditation meditation meditation. Trying to gain muscle by choosing to gain muscle is impossible...it's not the choice, the actual development of the muscle takes place when you walk into a gym and stay there for an hour, every day. Why would it be any different for the mind? Your mind is an infinitely more complex system, and your subconscious is in control the whole thing. Very little actual authority is given to what is known as "free will." Your subconscious controls your pain, digestion, blood circulation, the respiratory system, throwing up, sex drive, sex orientation etc etc etc. So don't fall for the idea that you can change something fundamental about yourself by "trying harder." I recommend one, or both of these methods. 1. The "neti neti" method that leo talks about. Which will dissolve the idea that you exist, and how can you be worried if there is no "i" to be worried? (I do this one) 2. Law of attraction. Check out the teaching behind law of attraction if you don't know it already. There's a lot of western commercialisation of this though, like "get rich quick" schemes. Try to get to the bones of it. How it actually works is, you have a vibrational energy (apparently), and this vibrational energy kind of governs the subconscious make-up of your situation. The only reason your in the situations your in, is because you've some how or another created it. An example of this is when someone is trying to make you angry, you can either feed into their trap and become angry...or completely rise above them, so much so you don't even reply. It requires your energy. So look into that. Manipulating these things once you know how they work, is actually super effective. U can change anything about yourself

Self identity creates separation, not words, even in the absence of words there can be a perceived separation in awareness from the self identity.... words are the result of this separation, not the impetus to it. The body spontaneously creates self identity which results eventually in words. Even if we clarify awareness of the perception of separation as long as we have the body, it generates the self identity in our consciousness so we can be aware of it but not necessarily distracted by it. Well, there isn't duality, that is just the mistaken impression of our mind from separation coming from our self identity but it doesn't really exist as duality even if the sense of self creates a perception of separation, The body spontaneously creates the sense of self which causes this perceived separation in our consciousness. There really is no such thing as inattention either, it is distraction so we still have attention but it directed to the body and it's sense of self with the perceived separation. See how that's a false duality? It's not like we either are attentive or have no attention as opposites but our attention is distracted from being on the unity and instead it's on the separation, At no point are we without attention/awareness, it's just focused elsewhere, it's distracted from the holistic presence of being. All that movement stuff you talk about are examples of what distracts of the separation from self identity. I try not to get too complicated in my own experience of the path because I have found that attempting to understand it can be a distraction as well and understanding it isn't a requirement for liberation, Well, multiple words at least, that is what I was suggesting. As long as we have a body and we are alive in that body we are on the path and yes it can be a distraction....it evolved to capture our attention so we behave in a way to keep it alive. Regardless of whether it's simple or complex we walk it and it can be a distraction from being present which is why I simplify mine own path, less to be distracted with. The body spontaneously creates the existential yearning that manifests as psychological craving, emotional desire, physical hunger and everything like that to keep the organism alive. As long as we have the body we will have the yearning in all it's forms. Yes, they can all serve as a distraction from simply being present, that's what the body does. The food doesn't come to our mouth, we have to go get it, hunger is a physical discontentment to motivate us to eat or we die. That last little bit is you getting distracted by the path, more specifically by the words again. I did say "realization" and you substituted 'seeking of finding' then tried to make a point about the words. Should I now tell you running around telling others 'not it, not it', neti neti is 'not it' and a distraction as well? Nah... that's 'not it' either, I don't want to be distracted by the path. Haha.

Neti Neti, even more then what your pointing to.

I ask questions like who am i or Rupert Spira’s Am i Aware , Neti neti method rly open minded and looking directly not logically. Then when there is nothing more to ask i stay in that noticing , awareness but confused dont know what to do next , can someone give me more guidlines or something tnx . “Doing” do nothing meditation and witnessing present moment without judgement gives m peace but self inquiry only frustation

@winterknight Hey thanks again for answering my question on your enlightenment megathread. And I'll be sure to do that and update you if I get anywhere. I actually was inspired to make this post after researching the Neti Neti method, cause I'm just learning about that, so maybe it'll help me out.

@Nahm life is a ? and a ? it never stops. ??‍♀️ thanks for the neti neti ?- there are so many things i need to try it’s very good when tips are actual.

@now is forever Try seeing the humor in love is what you are, thinking is something you’re doing. Seriously, do you see how funny this is? As you see the humor, do you feel the love “in you”? Careful, you can get stuck laughing and loving for the rest of your life, a drunken mess of a loving person. Be very careful with this stuff. Very serious. Oh wait, no, that’s just a thought. Love is not a thought, it is infinite, so whatever it is, “do I have enough love for even this?”, the arising of love will infinitely be a resounding YES! .....and then the thought “reciprocal love” arises....and the circus is on, again!! ? Let’s invent the practice of neti neti love. Like when you walk outside today and see how beautiful the sky is, you must think “I’m not loving it though”, and when you see the life giving trees, “but I won’t love you trees”, and when you see people and say Hi, how are you?, you must think within “but I’m not loving you”.

Just to be clear, "neti neti" is just a thought. Simply repeating that about various things is not the point, of course. That sense of self is the important thing. You feel that "I scan my body and see no one." Well, who is the "I" that is seeing that? You feel it, right? Where is that feeling? How do you know that that I is there? Where is that knowledge coming from? What is it? That's what you have to focus on intensely. Again, what is that feeling of "I" in the "I am seeing no one"? If you are doing it intensely, you are deep into the path. Indeed, just keep going. It can be helpful to read, though. Read Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, and when you're done, read it again. And if necessary again.

I think the most important part of it is realising how much gold is at the end of it. You need to have some sort of beliefs about it, otherwise why would you do it. Check out Leo's practical guide to enlightenment. My practise has been 40 minutes neti neti method followed by 20 minutes of breath focusing meditation. I've been meditating for what feels like a couple of months now, and holy shit let me tell you...you want to do it. It's fucken hard tho, because you don't realise how much your missing out on until you do it. Basically heaven is literally the goal of meditation from my insights. I've started to feel different levels of euphoria after meditation now...and I can feel my chest open up literally now to. It takes a while for the results to become tangible and palpable. The best thing to do probably, is say "fuck u" to all your thoughts and feelings and just meditate your ass off for a month anyway. That's what I did.. haha and it worked. Then after you've seen god in person a few times you know that it's worth it and you can transcend your feelings and just BOOM meditate like fuck. U have to expect that there's always more too btw, like...never believe that you've reached the goal "...to believe that you are fully aware, would be to become permanently unaware of how unaware you truly are." (I've also explored ways to using spiritual laws to my advantage in the past. One technique I have for dealing with not wanting to meditate is completely be fine with it. I just be ok with not wanting to meditate and dont, then at some point in the day I sit down where I usually meditate and just start asking myself the same questions I would when I'm meditating I focus real hard and keep an eye on the time just to see. And boom, I'm meditating. And your actually meant to do this in meditation anyway. Your mind creates what you hate.)

Be aware of associating "progress" with "ecstasy". This was a major trap for me. Awakening has no preference toward bliss or terror. Awakening doesn't care if the personality feels good or awful. Also, the personality is not a static construct. It is dynamic - constantly evolving. There are methods that may resonate with a personality. Yet, the idea of a "correct" or "better" method is very subjective. If Byron Katie resonates with you and your intuition draws you in that direction - go for it. Yet, your personality may outgrow Katie. Things that seem spiritual or true today - might not seem spiritual or true next month. Neti Neti, Kriya Yoga may re-enter. Or a new method may enter. I observe a lot of suffering caused by the personality trying to maintain the illusion of a static personality over time.

Are you sure there aren’t easier ways of getting there. I’m doing The Work of Byron Katie, and my mind is becoming very still after just four months of practice. These days my whole body is just oozing with ecstasy. A lot of the time my mind is in ‘actuality’ rather than just wondering off into theoryland. Before I started The Work of Byron Katie, I did mindfulness meditation for three months, then Neti Neti for three months, then Kriya Yoga for four months. None of them worked for me quite as well. I suggest you stop thinking of The Work as just a means to ‘cure depression’ and think of it as a very strong technique for mastery of the mind.

What are thoughts but mental images(color) and narratives(sound)? What are emotions but sensation/feeling? I simplified the entire realm of experiencing for Self-inquiry, for the neti neti process. I am not interested in their intensity, density, texture, brightness etc. It's all just color, sound, sensation. No inside & outside dichotomy allowed. The search is not in the realm of color, sound and sensations. So I deliberately made up this simplified practice strategy so that I don't chase some vision (color), some rationalization and mental explanation (sound) or some exotic feeling/high (sensation). It becomes a lot easier to decrease the obsession with thoughts and experiences and relax the attention on itself if you start seeing experience in this simplied manner. Shinzen Young's ''Mindfulness with Labeling" uses this same strategy. Divide and Conquer After all, that fictitious ego is all about hiding amidst a shit load of junk and complexity. That's where it thrives! Simply, divide, break down, reject things, neti neti....and that ego is gone as if it never was!

@Blissout I'm not interested in an intellectual debate here.Trust me, I've done enough intellectual research. Please just look at your experience. You're making a distinction between I AM and PURE I. But you can't tell me even one objective quality about either of them. Why is that? It is precisely because they are the one and SAME thing. Just named differently on various occasions. Why complicating things by giving the same thing many different names? Tell me something. That 'knowingness' of I AM and PURE I, are they 2 different 'Knowingness'? Are there 2 Consciouness in your experience right now? Or is it ever the same, one Consciousness? Enlightenment is discovering that there NEVER WAS anything called a separate egoic Consciousness or presonal Consciousness. It was always the Absolute; God's Infinite Consciousness. The ego illusively took ownership of that. That's the very dilemma!! By staying with that only knowingness, you discover it's Truth! Realize that what you are persistently calling PURE I, I'm calling the same thing as I AM Leo put it so beautifully,'' You've taken God and recontextualized God as you. That's the very function of devil/ego''. This Unique state, it is the final stage towards Enlightenment. Concentration practices on objects are done to still the monkey mind to a degree. Then Witnessing happens. It's just being aware of an objectless aware presence. This simple, ever present knowing of I AM. It has many many names. Let me list some for ya! 1) Practicing the presence of God in Christian mystical tradition 2) Staying as I AM by Nisargadatta Maharaj 3) Self Inquiry by Ramana Maharshi 4) Being aware of being aware by Rupert Spira 5) Resting as Awareness by Adyashanti 6) Witnessing Meditation by OSHO 7) Seeing God's Face everywhere in Sufi Traditions 8) Right Mindfulness in Buddhism 9) Self Remembering by PD Ouspensky 10) The PARVASTHA or After Effect Poise in Kriya Yoga Tradition 11) Direct Mind Experience by Richard Rose 12) The Luminous Center 13) Headlessness as promoted by our very own Faceless and Jack River 14) Neti Neti at it's Original form by Advaita Vedanta THESE ARE ALL THE ONE AND SAME THING. IT IS THE DIRECT, EFFORTLESS STATE. IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU DO. It may seem like something you're doing at first, but upon clear seeing you find them as non-doing. They are just different names for the same things. Our goal here is not to complicate stuff but seeing the common thread that leads to Truth. Enlightenment doesn't happen from any Doing.You do the doing to still your mind and purify yourself up to a degree. The jump happens from the Non Doing (Objectless Being-Knowing) state. I am done LOL

Concentration practices,breathing methods,Yogic methods,contemplation,self inquiry,witnessing (i.e.,"passive observation"),etc.,have been around for thousands and thousands of years. Each have their merit,as has been proven by those who created them and those who have engaged in them. Gautama (Buddha) used inquiry neti neti, vipassana, mindfulness,witnessing,contemplation. Gautama's desire to end suffering was his motivation,not enlightenment. But through the ages,even prior to his time,"spiritual methods" to realize/attain God/Brahman/the Absolute/Nirvana/Satori etc., also just happened to end, and/or relieve, psychological suffering on the way to God/Nirvana etc,. Gautama felt the spiritual and metaphysical implications of these methods were only a distraction,and were not relevant to his life mission to end suffering. He used the methods,but threw out the associated spiritual connotations,and got himself a method to end suffering for the regular Joe Dirte Buddha, who needn't become a monk to end his suffering. Know wonder he was a popular dude. What do 99.999% of people want most? "Happiness" which translates as freedom from suffering. Those strictly in the "enlightenment game" for God/Brahman/Nirvana, are fewer than those looking for something that will make them "happy" or end their suffering. Why is mindfulness,meditation the most popular,talked about,written about (at least in the West), method of meditation among the many others? Because they can relieve at least some of their suffering and not need to be associated with anything "spiritual" or metaphysical to do it. They can still be an atheist, a christian, a self righteous douche-bag, racist, scientist etc., and if they choose,have a verifiable "non-spiritual/non-religious"*cough,cough*, method to ease their suffering. The "passive observation"(also called "witnessing") of thought Jack,faceless,robdl and a few others talk about as "not being a method", is totally a method , and nothing new. It's been a part of spiritual practices for thousands of years. Why would,or does one, passively engage /observe/witness psychological movement/fear/ thought"? Because it is or was, having an undesired affect on their life,that causes at least some suffering. Why did,and still do,hoards of people" flock to Krishnamurti,Osho,Mooji,Tolle,Sadhguru,Spira etc., etc.,. ? Many to realize or find God,Truth,yada yada,etc.,etc.,.. but I would say many more do it because of suffering. And thousands of years have verified the usefulness of "spiritual methods" to help end suffering. Those same methods that were developed to assist Realization. Will spiritual methods/practices alone, bring you to Truth? For many they have. They are a proven,verified,useful tool, to assist the seeker. They would not be around today,and practiced by millions, if they were useless.

After listening to so many of Leo's videos, and other enlightenment content, I feel like I already know the answer and it's so hard to ignore it when I am self-inquiring. It's like I am always trying to find that the answer is true, instead of being actually curious about my reality. I used to be very curious, before I knew Leo I spent hours and hours thinking about reality and what it is, I came to all sorts of conclusions like reality being necessarily unlimited and infinite, but I didn't know of spirituality back then and it was more of an intellectual exercise. Now that I know how significant it is to inspect consciousness, I cannot do it because I already feel like I know the answer. Whenever I am self-inquiring I am trying to get rid of my self, because I already know that I am not what I think the self is. I am using the Neti-Neti method with a clear expectation of what will happen and it's just useless. It kills my curiosity. The only times where I seem to get deep is when I question language, when I question the meaning of words until they make no sense anymore, and that is when I don't actually think about enlightenment at all, but I am actually curious. Though even that is being corrupted by the ideas I have, whenever I realize that I am getting onto something I immediately think of enlightenment and am like "Wow, this is it, this is how I will get to the truth!" and then it's all for nothing. How do I get rid of all these ideas and concepts? Or how can I use these concepts to aid me on my inquiry instead of being road-blocked by them? I have this problem that I am only curious when I try to investigate matters on my own, when someone makes me question something about reality that I then have to figure out by myself. This is when I can actually inquire into the nature of things. Listening to teachings to me is almost like adding delusions to my conceptual framework. It's like spoiling a movie for me that I then don't care to watch anymore. I know that the experience of watching the movie is different from the information I was told, but that does not change the lack of curiosity and the inability to actually, consciously inspect the mind.