New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

22 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The reason why ONLY now the world is so noisy but not in other wars is precisly because Israel's relatively high values and consciousness. The real issue here is the great system resisting a growing up process trying to happen. All the rest - backward rationalizations.

So the world is lower in consciousness and higher values than Israel?

And that’s why they don’t ‘understand’ Israel - because they haven’t grown up to its level?

Edited November 12, 2023 by zazen

[_Archangel_]

@Lila9 War ended 50 years ago, Israel won and borders were established. What you call "war on territory" shouldn't even be happening because settlements shouldn't be there. And yet it still occupies territories(according to the U.N.) over which it doesn't have any right (west bank, golan), and segregate a minority group in a concentration camp (gaza).

So yes i wuold say that etchinic cleansing, segregation, concentration camp and occupation are suitable word IF you look up  the definitions.

And before you say it: Yes, Hamas BAD.

@zazen exactly
 

Edited November 12, 2023 by _Archangel_

[zazen]

9 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

What happens in North Korea goes decades without end.

Syria? Decades without end.

China? Decades without end.

Iran? Same.

No, it's not an apartheid.

 

What is your definition of apartheid? Why do many reputable organisations that call it that then.

Even Israel’s own human rights group B'Tselem stated in a 2021 report that Israel is maintaining a maintaining a regime of Jewish supremacy, which it considers as apartheid.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by zazen

[DawnC]

11 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

So it’s like the Hamas terrorists in the Gaza Strip. Maybe they should blockade the settlements, turn off their water, electricity and food until they surrender to the IDF? The IDF will probably have to bomb them non stop too.

I don't believe that's a serious argument. Firstly, there is a difference in the way countries handle domestic and external affairs, it's not reasonable to expect them to be the same. More importantly, there is a substantial distinction between an extreme minority contained within a healthy democratic society and a society ruled by extremism. It's not that every Gazan is an extremist (though I believe there are more than you may think), but it's the extremists who set the tone. Political matters shouldn't be approached merely from an individual perspective, you have to consider the collective and leadership.

Nevertheless, the answer to your question is actually yes, in a sense. I think a very very firm stance should be taken against them. They should be brought down with force. Actually, the reason the situation doesn't deteriorate into something like in Gaza is because Israel is putting significant effort into dealing with that problem. Should they do more? Should they take more forceful measures? I believe so. But they are doing relatively well. Can you name any Western country without some barbaric extremist minority? The difference is that, unlike Gaza, in Israel, such barbaric extremism is not taught in schools, not considered heroic, and not celebrated. The majority of Israeli society doesn't reward extremists like Palestinian society does. Many of them are in jail. It's what sets the tone that matters, not the margins.

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, zazen said:

So the world is lower in consciousness and higher values than Israel?

And that’s why they don’t ‘understand’ Israel - because they haven’t grown up to its level?

Part of the world! But a big one.

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

 

No, it's not an apartheid.

Even Noam Chomsky said it’s not apartheid

 

 

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Part of the world! But a big one.

Allowing Jews who have little to no tie to Israel the right to return and settle on someone else’s land doesn’t seem high value or consciousness to me.

The people who were expelled from that land and are refugees don’t have a right to return but someone who has no connection except that maybe he has a ancestor from 2000 years ago who lived there has right to return.
 

I don’t know how these people feel no shame for this? Only if they believe they are gods chosen people. 

[Merkabah Star]

1 minute ago, DawnC said:

I don't believe that's a serious argument. Firstly, there is a difference in the way countries handle domestic and external affairs, it's not reasonable to expect them to be the same. More importantly, there is a substantial distinction between an extreme minority contained within a healthy democratic society and a society ruled by extremism. It's not that every Gazan is an extremist (though I believe there are more than you may think), but it's the extremists who set the tone. Political matters shouldn't be approached merely from an individual perspective, you have to consider the collective and leadership.

Nevertheless, the answer to your question is actually yes, in a sense. I think a very very firm stance should be taken against them. They should be brought down with force. Actually, the reason the situation doesn't deteriorate into something like in Gaza is because Israel is putting significant effort into dealing with that problem. Should they do more? Should they take more forceful measures? I believe so. But they are doing relatively well. Can you name any Western country without some barbaric extremist minority? The difference is that, unlike Gaza, in Israel, such barbaric extremism is not taught in schools, not considered heroic, and not celebrated. The majority of Israeli society doesn't reward extremists like Palestinian society does. Many of them are in jail. It's what sets the tone that matters, not the margins.

oh, it’s a serious argument. You can’t talk your way out of it either. 

The Settlers get away with it, there are never going to be any ramifications for them. The IDF allow it. 

there is no way in hell that this kind of behaviour would be tolerated in any other western country. All the settlers doing it would be arrested and imprisoned. If it was ignored like Israel ignores it, the international outcry would be huge. 
 

there is not one rule for Israel and one rule for everyone else. 

[PurpleTree]

It‘s apartheid 

noooo

it‘s genocide

noooo

it‘s anti semitic

from the river to the sea

my team is right

no it‘s my team which is right

oppressor

terrorist

- this thread in a nutshell 

[Lila9]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

Even Noam Chomsky said it’s not apartheid

 

 

Israel is not an apartheid. Its situation is too complex to be considered an apartheid.

 

[zazen]

12 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I don't believe that's a serious argument. Firstly, there is a difference in the way countries handle domestic and external affairs, it's not reasonable to expect them to be the same. More importantly, there is a substantial distinction between an extreme minority contained within a healthy democratic society and a society ruled by extremism. It's not that every Gazan is an extremist (though I believe there are more than you may think), but it's the extremists who set the tone. Political matters shouldn't be approached merely from an individual perspective, you have to consider the collective and leadership.

Nevertheless, the answer to your question is actually yes, in a sense. I think a very very firm stance should be taken against them. They should be brought down with force. Actually, the reason the situation doesn't deteriorate into something like in Gaza is because Israel is putting significant effort into dealing with that problem. Should they do more? Should they take more forceful measures? I believe so. But they are doing relatively well. Can you name any Western country without some barbaric extremist minority? The difference is that, unlike Gaza, in Israel, such barbaric extremism is not taught in schools, not considered heroic, and not celebrated. The majority of Israeli society doesn't reward extremists like Palestinian society does. Many of them are in jail. It's what sets the tone that matters, not the margins.

Well put 👍🏻 although I don’t think Palestinians reward extremists as much as they have no options left to emancipate themselves with. Even amongst Hamas their are factions and infighting and some more extreme than others. 

[Lila9]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

It‘s apartheid 

noooo

it‘s genocide

noooo

it‘s anti semitic

from the river to the sea

my team is right

no it‘s my team which is right

oppressor

terrorist

- this thread in a nutshell 

Nice. Have you thought to compose this historical piece of poetry?

 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Nice. Have you thought to compose this historical piece of poetry?

 

Yes it‘s a poem

[Lila9]

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

Allowing Jews who have little to no tie to Israel the right to return and settle on someone else’s land doesn’t seem high value or consciousness to me.

The people who were expelled from that land and are refugees don’t have a right to return but someone who has no connection except that maybe he has a ancestor from 2000 years ago who lived there has right to return.
 

I don’t know how these people feel no shame for this? Only if they believe they are gods chosen people. 

Jews lived in this land for thousands of years, have been explled twice. Their connection to this land is mentioned in the Bible, the Koran and the Thora.

There is bunch of archeology in Israel which is related to Jews. Saying they have little to no tie is delusional.

It's not like there are 20 Jews lands, there is only one while Muslims have dozens. Expecting Jews to give up on their one land for Muslims who have bunch of it is really fucked up. 

 

[Whitney Edwards]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Except Jews and everyone who is a non Palestinian refugee in the west bank and Gaza.

Where all the protesters for the crimes against humanity happen in North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, Syria?

 

 

They happened but on a smaller scale. Also the awareness of the internet is growing day by day. 

Social media wasn't so active back in the day during Syria crisis. 

I bet there are more people paying attention to social media than before. 

It's a logistics issue not a selective outrage or compassion issue. 

 

[PurpleTree]

19 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Jews lived in this land for thousands of years, have been explled twice. Their connection to this land is mentioned in the Bible, the Koran and the Thora.

There is bunch of archeology in Israel which is related to Jews. Saying they have little to no tie is delusional.

It's not like there are 20 Jews lands, there is only one while Muslims have dozens. Expecting Jews to give up on their one land for Muslims who have bunch of it is really fucked up. 

 

Didn’t their god yhwh expell them from their country

and they can only come back with the new messiah and unfortunately they didn’t accept jesus as messiah and there‘s no other messiah is sight

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

They happened but on a smaller scale. Also the awareness of the internet is growing day by day. 

Social media wasn't so active back in the day during Syria crisis. 

I bet there are more people paying attention to social media than before. 

It's a logistics issue not a selective outrage or compassion issue. 

 

It is certainly selective outrage

[Whitney Edwards]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

It is certainly selective outrage

Absolutely not. This is the most bogus shit I have heard. My God open your eyes and see the suffering. It's too much to see. 

[Lila9]

15 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

They happened but on a smaller scale. Also the awareness of the internet is growing day by day. 

Social media wasn't so active back in the day during Syria crisis. 

I bet there are more people paying attention to social media than before. 

It's a logistics issue not a selective outrage or compassion issue. 

 

The civilians war in Syria hasn't been over yet.

The abuse of 26,000,000 civilians in North Korea and violation of human rights is still happening.

The communist China has been killing and stealing organs from millions of Chinese people ONLY because they practice Falun Gong. They are still doing this.

Where are all the protesters?

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Lila9

[DawnC]

1 minute ago, Merkabah Star said:

oh, it’s a serious argument. You can’t talk your way out of it either. 

The Settlers get away with it, there are never going to be any ramifications for them. The IDF allow it. 

there is no way in hell that this kind of behaviour would be tolerated in any other western country. All the settlers doing it would be arrested and imprisoned. If it was ignored like Israel ignores it, the international outcry would be huge. 
 

there is not one rule for Israel and one rule for everyone else. 

I didn't mean to imply that those extremists settlers shouldn't be addressed or it's an unreasonable consideration or it's not a problem. I expressed my suggested ways to deal with them politely, but I hope it was clear that I don't believe they deserve better treatment than any other terrorists. Of course they are a problem. I meant this in the sense of comparing the situation to Gaza as a whole and the way that Israel should deal with that. It's just not the same situation.

I don't think it's as common as you suggest, and I don't think it's institutionalized either. This is a very extreme minority that is not supported even by most settlers. There is actually a significant department in the Israeli Shin Bet specifically for that. It is very widely criticized and discussed in Israel. Anyway, I do think they should do more, and I believe that the far-right parties, especially Ben Gvir, are very problematic in that regard. But I'm focused on our disagreements.