New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

Even Noam Chomsky said it’s not apartheid

 

 

Israel is not an apartheid. Its situation is too complex to be considered an apartheid.

 

[zazen]

12 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I don't believe that's a serious argument. Firstly, there is a difference in the way countries handle domestic and external affairs, it's not reasonable to expect them to be the same. More importantly, there is a substantial distinction between an extreme minority contained within a healthy democratic society and a society ruled by extremism. It's not that every Gazan is an extremist (though I believe there are more than you may think), but it's the extremists who set the tone. Political matters shouldn't be approached merely from an individual perspective, you have to consider the collective and leadership.

Nevertheless, the answer to your question is actually yes, in a sense. I think a very very firm stance should be taken against them. They should be brought down with force. Actually, the reason the situation doesn't deteriorate into something like in Gaza is because Israel is putting significant effort into dealing with that problem. Should they do more? Should they take more forceful measures? I believe so. But they are doing relatively well. Can you name any Western country without some barbaric extremist minority? The difference is that, unlike Gaza, in Israel, such barbaric extremism is not taught in schools, not considered heroic, and not celebrated. The majority of Israeli society doesn't reward extremists like Palestinian society does. Many of them are in jail. It's what sets the tone that matters, not the margins.

Well put 👍🏻 although I don’t think Palestinians reward extremists as much as they have no options left to emancipate themselves with. Even amongst Hamas their are factions and infighting and some more extreme than others. 

[Lila9]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

It‘s apartheid 

noooo

it‘s genocide

noooo

it‘s anti semitic

from the river to the sea

my team is right

no it‘s my team which is right

oppressor

terrorist

- this thread in a nutshell 

Nice. Have you thought to compose this historical piece of poetry?

 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Nice. Have you thought to compose this historical piece of poetry?

 

Yes it‘s a poem

[Lila9]

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

Allowing Jews who have little to no tie to Israel the right to return and settle on someone else’s land doesn’t seem high value or consciousness to me.

The people who were expelled from that land and are refugees don’t have a right to return but someone who has no connection except that maybe he has a ancestor from 2000 years ago who lived there has right to return.
 

I don’t know how these people feel no shame for this? Only if they believe they are gods chosen people. 

Jews lived in this land for thousands of years, have been explled twice. Their connection to this land is mentioned in the Bible, the Koran and the Thora.

There is bunch of archeology in Israel which is related to Jews. Saying they have little to no tie is delusional.

It's not like there are 20 Jews lands, there is only one while Muslims have dozens. Expecting Jews to give up on their one land for Muslims who have bunch of it is really fucked up. 

 

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Except Jews and everyone who is a non Palestinian refugee in the west bank and Gaza.

Where all the protesters for the crimes against humanity happen in North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, Syria?

 

 

They happened but on a smaller scale. Also the awareness of the internet is growing day by day. 

Social media wasn't so active back in the day during Syria crisis. 

I bet there are more people paying attention to social media than before. 

It's a logistics issue not a selective outrage or compassion issue. 

 

[PurpleTree]

19 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Jews lived in this land for thousands of years, have been explled twice. Their connection to this land is mentioned in the Bible, the Koran and the Thora.

There is bunch of archeology in Israel which is related to Jews. Saying they have little to no tie is delusional.

It's not like there are 20 Jews lands, there is only one while Muslims have dozens. Expecting Jews to give up on their one land for Muslims who have bunch of it is really fucked up. 

 

Didn’t their god yhwh expell them from their country

and they can only come back with the new messiah and unfortunately they didn’t accept jesus as messiah and there‘s no other messiah is sight

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

They happened but on a smaller scale. Also the awareness of the internet is growing day by day. 

Social media wasn't so active back in the day during Syria crisis. 

I bet there are more people paying attention to social media than before. 

It's a logistics issue not a selective outrage or compassion issue. 

 

It is certainly selective outrage

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

It is certainly selective outrage

Absolutely not. This is the most bogus shit I have heard. My God open your eyes and see the suffering. It's too much to see. 

[Lila9]

15 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

They happened but on a smaller scale. Also the awareness of the internet is growing day by day. 

Social media wasn't so active back in the day during Syria crisis. 

I bet there are more people paying attention to social media than before. 

It's a logistics issue not a selective outrage or compassion issue. 

 

The civilians war in Syria hasn't been over yet.

The abuse of 26,000,000 civilians in North Korea and violation of human rights is still happening.

The communist China has been killing and stealing organs from millions of Chinese people ONLY because they practice Falun Gong. They are still doing this.

Where are all the protesters?

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Lila9

[DawnC]

1 minute ago, Merkabah Star said:

oh, it’s a serious argument. You can’t talk your way out of it either. 

The Settlers get away with it, there are never going to be any ramifications for them. The IDF allow it. 

there is no way in hell that this kind of behaviour would be tolerated in any other western country. All the settlers doing it would be arrested and imprisoned. If it was ignored like Israel ignores it, the international outcry would be huge. 
 

there is not one rule for Israel and one rule for everyone else. 

I didn't mean to imply that those extremists settlers shouldn't be addressed or it's an unreasonable consideration or it's not a problem. I expressed my suggested ways to deal with them politely, but I hope it was clear that I don't believe they deserve better treatment than any other terrorists. Of course they are a problem. I meant this in the sense of comparing the situation to Gaza as a whole and the way that Israel should deal with that. It's just not the same situation.

I don't think it's as common as you suggest, and I don't think it's institutionalized either. This is a very extreme minority that is not supported even by most settlers. There is actually a significant department in the Israeli Shin Bet specifically for that. It is very widely criticized and discussed in Israel. Anyway, I do think they should do more, and I believe that the far-right parties, especially Ben Gvir, are very problematic in that regard. But I'm focused on our disagreements. 

 

[Lila9]

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Didn’t their god yhwh expell them from their country

and they can only come back with the new messiah and unfortunately they didn’t accept jesus as messiah and there‘s no other messiah is sight

It was the religious explanation that was given to that but the original historical cause was conquest by a foreign empire.

[DawnC]

53 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

You can’t talk your way out of it either. 

That's a good one .

[Buck Edwards]

9 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The civilians war in Syria hasn't been over yet.

The abuse of 26,000,000 civilians in North Korea and violation of human rights is still happening.

The communist China has been killing and stealing organs from millions of Chinese people ONLY because they practice Falun Gong. They are still doing this.

Where are all the protesters?

 

 

Because there isn't enough media coverage. I don't even see these things in my feed.

Also if so many people are dying in North Korea, it should have been dead by now. 

Statistically it doesn't make sense that people are suffering for decades and it hasn't yet turned into a Hiroshima Nagasaki style desert after the bombs. 

Humans can barely survive. It's very easy to kill a human being. Without food and constant violence, a human being will die quickly. 

So by now all those people should have already been dead and disappeared. Safe to say there should be nothing left to report about or cover? No? 

Just think. You have a million people in a city. All are suffering and dying slowly. Won't the population come to a halt at a certain point? Either total zero or barely left like 100 people. 

When all is wiped out, what's left to report about? How will outrage exist? On what? 

People don't think too much about dead people after a long time passed. 

What's happening in Gaza is fresh ongoing violence.

10 months later if all have died, nobody will talk about it. 

 

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

It was the religious explanation that was given to that but the original historical cause was conquest by a foreign empire.

Yea but if the israelites are religious then they can only come back with a messiah

and if they aren‘t religious then their claims on the lands from thousands of years ago become murky

or not?

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Buck Edwards said:

Because there isn't enough media coverage. I don't even see these things in my feed.

So the media decides about what you will get outraged and protest? 

[Buck Edwards]

53 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Jews lived in this land for thousands of years, have been explled twice. Their connection to this land is mentioned in the Bible, the Koran and the Thora.

There is bunch of archeology in Israel which is related to Jews. Saying they have little to no tie is delusional.

It's not like there are 20 Jews lands, there is only one while Muslims have dozens. Expecting Jews to give up on their one land for Muslims who have bunch of it is really fucked up. 

 

This is like saying that there are too many Muslims in the world so if a few just die, it's not a big deal. But if one jew dies, it should be cause for concern because there are very few left. 

I don't know but I'm laughing as it sounds similar. I don't know. But there are racist undertones to what you said. 

Do you have a problem that there are many Muslim countries in the world. 

Are you anti-muslim because I'm smelling that from your comments? 

I'm not anti-jew or anti-semitic. I condemn what Hamas did and I simply don't want violence in Gaza, irrespective of religion. 

You seem to be intensely interested in making it to be a Jew versus Muslim issue. 

I'm smelling racism here. Sorry but calling your inner hidden elitist racism out for what it is. 

 

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

 

What is your definition of apartheid? Why do many reputable organisations that call it that then.

Even Israel’s own human rights group B'Tselem stated in a 2021 report that Israel is maintaining a maintaining a regime of Jewish supremacy, which it considers as apartheid.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTZ0PiTnq2E&t=2240s

I think that's a mature, grounded perspective on the whole apartheid notion. He starts discussing this at 23:25.

[Buck Edwards]

10 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

So the media decides about what you will get outraged and protest? 

It's only logical that you will only protest what you see more of. Unfortunately the reporting media does play a role. Not social media but mainstream media. If they don't report on something, nobody will know and no outrage. The media is the only option. Historically we never had this option and so we never know how much injustice was inflicted on helpless victims or if narratives were twisted, changed. 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Jews lived in this land for thousands of years, have been explled twice. Their connection to this land is mentioned in the Bible, the Koran and the Thora.

There is bunch of archeology in Israel which is related to Jews. Saying they have little to no tie is delusional.

It's not like there are 20 Jews lands, there is only one while Muslims have dozens. Expecting Jews to give up on their one land for Muslims who have bunch of it is really fucked up. 

 

Of course they have ties. I should have clarified that a lot of secular Jews base their Jewish identity on ethnicity and culture and have civic ties to the places they now live in more than they have nationalistic religious tie to Israel.

 

Even if they do have an affiliation to Israel, that doesn’t mean you can elevate Jewish historical ties and claim the land but deny the Palestinians historic and present day ties to the land. It needs to be a shared heritage and land for all the people not just the Jews.

 

The argument that Jews have only one homeland while Muslims have multiple lands oversimplifies the diversity within these groups. Muslims, like Jews, have distinct cultural, historical, and national identities. We can’t move Spanish people all to Italy just because they share European values and have Catholic ties for example - they have distinct identities based off their culture and land.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by zazen