Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Leo Gura said: There are estimated to be 40,000 Hamas fighters. How do you plan to kill them? Even 4:1 would be a good ratio for Israel. Tanks are not going to be effective. All of Gaza will be littered with mines. It's going to be worse than Iraq. 10.000 IDF causalities are not acceptable. Israel is currently calculating, planning and testing the waters. It's now up to the IDF to show its worth and to hit Hamas maximally while having minimal casualties. This war might take years and might expand to Lebanon. Maybe Hamas can survive by making hostage deals. Israel will definitely try to take some of the tunnels and see how it goes and adapt its strategy. Edited October 27, 2023 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: @zazen The hellish conditions are because of hamas. Israel has left gaza in 2005. The occupation paradigm doesnt work anymore. You are looking at an insular box with no way in or out, almost the entire population reduced to living off aid, cutting off all the history till that point and then saying. Ahah its nothing to do with Israel. It has something to do with every single nation that is in the region and has been in the region. Blame will never end this. Us vs them will never end this. This will never end unless isolationism and division ends, and cooperation begins. Right now more than ever it's time to humanize. Yes with the people you hate the most. That doesn't mean X, or telling israel to do Y. It does mean looking at another person and seeing them as human, a person. Even if they hate everything you are, doing this means you are using logic not emotion. Then you can effectively tackle the problem, rather than Israel blanket bomb two million people which is growing the problem far beyond their ability to perceive it. Yes it's a hell of an uphill struggle for anyone in that region to even start towards that goal, without getting themselves killed by those running on pure emotion. I have the luxury of sitting far away and telling you how other countries ended their conflicts or grew them. So this goes for all the outside actors in this too, every one of them across the world, and there are many now not one or two. I will also admit my first emotional reaction to seeing all this was Israel should occupy gaza, before my mind started to analyze my emotions, the variables, and the developing situation. So I understand Israel, and I understand Hamas's actions have consequences, Israel has to see that growing these consequences further than they need to go is foolish and will lead to their own suffering magnified. How would I have handled it. Covertly. Special forces. Seemed the best solution, professional soldiers working off intelligence. Would have been much easier to handle the political situation, probably recovered more hostages, and it doesn't take away further action if it's required. I know the perception of safety had to be upheld, and the violence answered, I get that, but this was using the most extreme approach first which was a mistake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 40 minutes ago, Nabd said: Erdogan went nuts and said in the Turkish parliament that Hamas are freedom fighters and that Turkey shall send its army. I think he saw Gaza as a good source for gaining influence with Muslims because that's what Iran is doing. It's really dangerous what he said even though its all talk and of course he won't and can't send or do anything but Turkey is part of NATO and I don't think the US would allow Turkey to be a member anymore. They should give gaza to turkey. erdogan would love it and think he‘s and ottoman sultan. And gazans would have a future and passports. etc no terrorism or attack on israel allowed though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html Research done by New York Times regarding the hospital issue. "Using satellite imagery to triangulate the launch point in those videos, The Times determined that the projectile was fired toward Gaza from near the Israeli town of Nahal Oz shortly before the deadly hospital blast. The findings match the conclusion reached by some online researchers"- Copy Pasted from the article. The fact that people here, even @Leo Gurawould trust Israel government (which has lied many times and has 0 integrity) over independent sources is scary to me. At this point after carpet bombing Gaza for weeks, is it still hard to imagine that the Israeli Army is morally capable for this? It is not like they have much empathy for Palestinian Civilians. Even a Western Source is putting heavy doubts in Israel. Let that sink in... Edited October 27, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Nabd said: I was watching a reporter in Gaza interviewing civilians and everyone was talking about ending the war and even some of them said something like "we are not Hamas, go fight them where they hide". I wonder why nobody thought of hearing from civilians in Gaza but not when a bomb just exploded and kids are dying. I bet that most of them would kill Ismael Haniyye if given chance without hesitation. 1. It's a bit complex to fight with Hamas while they hide in populated places, with their tunnels located under civilian buildings. I've heard that there are tunnel openings in many residential homes in Gaza. 2. It's also difficult to determine who supports Hamas and who doesn't. There is evidence that during the October 7th attack, when the terrorists crossed the border, many Gaza civilians entered with the intent to steal property, take people as hostages, and kill. 3. While Hamas paraded the bodies of the Israeli people they had killed, the civilians of Gaza were the ones who praised them and threw sweets at them. 4. I don't believe that Israel wants to kill civilians, even if they support Hamas, just for the sake of killing them. It appears that Israel's focus is on Hamas terrorists themselves and it happens that they locate themselves among civilian areas because they show little regard for their own people. 5. I've heard that while Israel issued announcements requesting that Gaza people living on the northern side of Gaza evacuate to the south before bombing it, Hamas issued announcements in South Gaza requesting them to evacuate to the north. Hamas also blocked the roads leading to South Gaza and even targeted people who were on their way to the South. 6. I'm confident that a significant percentage of the bombings and civilian casualties in Gaza are caused by Hamas and other terrorists themselves, and they often try to shift the blame onto Israel, as they did with the hospital incident. Let Love In Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, Lila9 said: as they did with the hospital incident Watch the article I sent from new york times above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, Lila9 said: I don't believe that Israel wants to kill civilians, even if they support Hamas, just for the sake of killing them Google "Terror Bombing". That is what Israel is doing. It is a standard military strategy. Also their logic is this: "50 civilians dead for 1 hamas fighter dead is acceptable". It shows absolutely 0 regard for civilian lives which their right wing government sees as subhuman. Hitler and Stalin had similar mindsets. 4 minutes ago, Lila9 said: I've heard that while Israel issued announcements requesting that Gaza people living on the northern side of Gaza evacuate to the south before bombing it, Hamas issued announcements in South Gaza requesting them to evacuate to the north. Hamas also blocked the roads leading to South Gaza and even targeted people who were on their way to the South. There is endless footage of Israel bombing convoys trying to leave killing hundreds. UN Staff says south of gaza is not much safer. UN is by far more trustworthy here than any other source since they are the most impartial. 5 minutes ago, Lila9 said: It's a bit complex to fight with Hamas while they hide in populated places, with their tunnels located under civilian buildings. I've heard that there are tunnel openings in many residential homes in Gaza. Correct, an invasion will be a disaster. 5 minutes ago, Lila9 said: I'm confident that a significant percentage of the bombings and civilian casualties in Gaza are caused by Hamas and other terrorists themselves, and they often try to shift the blame onto Israel, as they did with the hospital incident. You have endless footage of Israel carpet bombing Gaza. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: At this point after carpet bombing Gaza for weeks, is it still hard to imagine that the Israeli Army is morally capable for this? It is not like they have much empathy for Palestinian Civilians. + USA rejected a request made by a rep to conduct an international independent investigation on the attack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOqsbd7k6Q&t=8s Regardless who did it, it was sadly successful in diverting the attention away from the confirmed non stop bombing of other civilian areas that is happening till today. In the end, it's nothing new for the Israeli gov. they have a long history of similar incidents, even outside Gaza and Hamas they bombed a primary school in Egypt a long time ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahr_El-Baqar_primary_school_bombing. Edited October 27, 2023 by lina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: is it still hard to imagine that the Israeli Army is morally capable for this? It is not like they have much empathy for Palestinian Civilians. Israel doesn't operate like that. It isn't bloodthirsty or fueled by some radical agenda to kill all the Arabs in the world or something. It's just a nation who loves themselves more than they hate anyone. Unlike Palestinians and Arabs there who hate Jews/Israel more than they love themselves. If Israel was a type of a country that commits genocide, there were no Palestinians and no Arabs in Israel, period. Because everyone would have been already dead by Israel. But there are. Hamas literally risks the lives of Palestinians, and they don't care much about it, they would lunch rockets on Israel non stop with the awarness that some percentage of it will hurt their own people. If it hurts their own people they will use it cynically to blame Israel and to appear more of victims in front of the fools who buy their stories. Why are you closing your eyes to Hamas terrorism against Israel the and betrayel of their own people? Do you support Hamas? Edited October 27, 2023 by Lila9 Let Love In Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 14 minutes ago, Lila9 said: Israel doesn't operate like that. It isn't bloodthirsty or fueled by some radical agenda to kill all the Arabs in the world or something. It's just a nation who loves themselves more than they hate anyone. Unlike Palestinians and Arabs there who hate Jews/Israel more than they love themselves. The historical 20-30x difference in casualties between Israel and Gaza shows otherwise. 15 minutes ago, Lila9 said: Why are you closing your eyes to Hamas terrorism against Israel the and betrayel of their own people? Do you support Hamas? I dont give a shit about Hamas dying, I care about the Palestinian kids which are almost half of all dying. I care about the fact that 95% of those dying are civilains. If most dead would be Hamas terrorists I would not care at all about it. However if you think killing 50 civilians to kill 1 hamas is acceptable than I will not agree with you. To me Palestinian kids and Hamas are independent variables. I do not see 1 linked to the other. Kill Hamas but if you kill Palestinian civilian kids while doing it then you are wrong and deserve punishment. Palestinian civilian kids lives should have priority over Hamas soldiers deaths. To Israel they dont. Hence the liberal outrage including mine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 32 minutes ago, Lila9 said: Israel was a type of a country that commits genocide, there were no Palestinians and no Arabs in Israel, period. Because everyone would have been already dead by Israel. But there are Israel responds to international public opinion. Israel wants to expel the Arabs, it is normal after 100 years of war. It's not that Israel are evil psychopaths, it's that so many years of war and murders generate that. two groups that hate and kill each other daily living together for 100 years is unsustainable. Without public opinion, the strongest would expel the weakest unceremoniously, this means killing children, the elderly, becoming a demon. In Israel the extreme right governs because they are legally elected again and again. So you can intuit what is the real desire of the population Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said: Israel responds to international public opinion. Israel wants to expel the Arabs, it is normal after 100 years of war. It's not that Israel are evil psychopaths, it's that so many years of war and murders generate that. two groups that hate and kill each other daily living together for 100 years is unsustainable. Without public opinion, the strongest would expel the weakest unceremoniously, this means killing children, the elderly, becoming a demon. In Israel the extreme right governs because they are legally elected again and again. So you can intuit what is the real desire of the population Sorry but this is just utterly absurd. Learn a bit about Israel seriously. 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 12 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Learn a bit about Israel seriously Nobody is saying "Israel are all bad" or anything like that. But their current government is extremly racist and toxic and needs to change to a more green evolved government. Also there is a high degree of racism of many Israelis towards Palestine. Americans used to have the same attitude about blacks before the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s, it is not that before that they were all evil monsters or anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) @Nivsch This is the fundamental problem here: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ElWDKIzkdMM And this was before the terrorist attack on October. This guy is apparently a schoolar so not an uneducated moron, he holds the title "Doctor". And he is insulting ALL of them, not just radical terrorists like Hamas. He is insulting their entire race. As long as this attitude exists, the area will never find peace. I am not suprised if many elements in the Israeli Government or Military think like this. Edited October 27, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) https://twitter.com/stairwayto3dom/status/1717941506848272627 #BREAKING: Israeli air strikes target more residential properties leaving them with no power or internet in Gaza forms of communication are being cut off..! Edited October 27, 2023 by lina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 Why only us liberals are crying about Palestine here in the West? I dont see conservatives care much Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 It's an impossible situation. I hear a lot of people arguing Israel should simply send in special forces. To do what exactly? Kill one or two Hamas leaders? Rescue one or two hostages? The hostages are scattered across the vast tunnel system. The leadership is scattered across the vast tunnel system. This also assumes the IDF is even capable of knowing exactly which tunnel these leaders / hostages are being hidden. How would you find that out? Israel's goal is to eliminate Hamas as a the dominant political organization in the region. There's no way to "special forces" this. As everyone here has already outlined, a ground invasion will lead to tons of Israeli casualties. Seems what is happening is inevitable as cruel and unfortunate as it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) How about a objective opinion coming form Jewish journalist living in Jerusalem, who wrote a book about the treatment of Palestinians under the Israeli government? https://youtu.be/BHNRG-LPI-A?feature=shared This is a remarkable and eye opining interview and it goes on speaking about what might happen in this war, Breaking Points are doing a great job. He also speaks about how the Israelites are oblivious to the lives of Palestinians, And how now even the left center of the Israelites are incentivizing this war because of how they have been kept protected form all these realities for so long. It’s very relevant and just explains so much of what I’m seeing in this thread, I encourage people to give this a listen. Edited October 27, 2023 by Happy Lizard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 27, 2023 Hamas is like a cancer you can only root out with intense chemotherapy and suffering. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
