New War In Israel / Gaza

[BlueOak]

@Nivsch
Welcome. I hope it gets better.
I need to show more empathy when I communicate. Rather than just be contrarian.

[Lila9]

This satire is spot on 😳

 

[Leo Gura]

@Lila9 Israel has 100x more money than all of Palestine. Why is Israel collecting money from the US?

I will start kicking people out of the politics sub-forum who cannot demonstrate a basic check on their biases.

The goal of our work here is to minimize self-bias when we look at reality.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

27 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

This satire is spot on 😳

 

Well... it's absolutly true and an important point.  Meanwhile sons of Israeli politicians are fighting on the ground in Gaza.

[Lila9]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Lila9 Israel has 100x more money than all of Palestine. Why is Israel collecting money from the US?

For Israel's defense, because Israel is American proxy in the Middle East, an ally, a strategical tool for US. 

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I will start kicking people out of the politics sub-forum who cannot demonstrate a basic check on their biases.

Relax, I'm not your enemy, I speak what I know. Take it or leave it.

 

[Lila9]

10 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Meanwhile sons of Israeli politicians are fighting on the ground in Gaza.

It tells a lot. 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, because this issue cannot be solved by taking the side of one or the other in the fighting. This requires going meta, which few minds are willing to do, so we have endless conflict.

   And this is the theme of this entire thread here, deluded polarized people too pro for Palestinians but especially for Israel without realizing the technological differences in this warfare.

4 hours ago, zazen said:

And that's people who are on this forum exposed to Leo's body of work and self development, non duality and love etc lol

 

[Raze]

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Raze

[Girzo]

It's actually funny how the most biased people are the loudest. Maybe because their limited perspective needs constant protection from clashing with reality.

[Vrubel]

For those who live in the West, just be grateful that you live without war and terrorist massacres and don't know what it implies. You're still innocent and therefore naive and ignorant about these aspects of life. 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

For those who live in the West, just be grateful that you live without war and terrorist massacres and don't know what it implies. You're still innocent and therefore naive and ignorant about these aspects of life. 

Those of you who live in Israel, just be grateful that you live without being carpet bombed with US munitions. You are still innocent and therefore naive and ignorant about these aspects of life.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

56 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Relax, I'm not your enemy, I speak what I know. Take it or leave it.

You spread self-bias with no remorse.

[Raze]

 

 

[zazen]

40 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

For those who live in the West, just be grateful that you live without war and terrorist massacres and don't know what it implies. You're still innocent and therefore naive and ignorant about these aspects of life. 

I will do a gratitude meditation with just that in mind but would like to point out also to Israel and any Isrealis to be grateful to have allies and friends that come to you with good intentions and are not rolling and drowned in the emotions your people are under that blinds your bloodshot vision and fogs your brains in the fog of war.

It can take a dispassionate look at the problems of reality and your situation to come to the most compassionate solution for all - though those busy in vengeance and war will reframe this otherwise.

When Isreals foot reflexively straightens and pushes down on the accelerator of retaliation and revenge locked into place - be grateful for that friend who will come to dislodge your foot and push down the brake to stop your nation and peoples going off the cliff that you not only drag yourselves off of but the regions - maybe even the world, including that very friend. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen

[Raze]

 

[zazen]

@Raze  That Norman / Alan discussion was like two heavyweights in the mental cage. When Norman smirked during Alans remarks you know had caught him out.

@Danioover9000  Indeed. Need to aim to go meta and not get mucky in the mud as Leo mentions. The thread was going off the rails and Leo came to verbally slap us into line and away from our biases which was needed lol

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

When Isreals foot reflexively straightens and pushes down on the accelerator of retaliation and revenge locked into place - be grateful for that friend who will come to dislodge your foot and push the down the brake to stop your nation and peoples way off the cliff that your actions can not only drag yourselves off of but the regions - maybe even the world including that very friend.

Let me try to challenge that, because the rage and feeling of unjustness is accumulated and been cooked for years.

What did you do, if you had for 18 years, every 1-2 years on average, to go for a quite surgical, limited but smart, intelligence-based operation against a gerilla organization because it just doesn't stop shooting missiles on your villages and cities.

And every time again, this organization hides behind civilians, what makes western countries who also holds your values, who are supposed to understand your side, to blame you again and again, when you feel this is such an unjustness, because you know you try hard to kill only terrorists.

But they are champion genius in showing a distorted exaggerated picture to the world and to hide behind their own people. And please check in wikipedia the killing ratio then that was 80% and more to the favor of terrorists quite decent.

But your hands are being bounded every time after couple of days or maximum weeks, again and again.

And one day this organization which exhuasted you for 18 years, kills 1200 people of you and in such a nightmarish way. Threatening your sense of security and survival in a way you never experienced before, and plus (bonus) when you know hezbollah could also join this surprise (By the original Iranian plan according to reliable sources I can add them) and threaten your very existance seriously.

Having said all of the above, what would you do now?

The question is not about backward justification yes or no, but about what any country would realisticly do.

Just think about it and let it sink a little.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Those of you who live in Israel, just be grateful that you live without being carpet bombed with US munitions.

I am incredibly grateful for being born in the situation I am. I am also grateful to be born Jewish and to share deeply in the pain of 7/10. It reconnected me with the Holocaust and the pogroms before that as something no longer of the "past and outside current reality", now I realize it's all part of the same reality, the same consciousness. It's a brutal aspect of life I was in denial about and tried to run away from.

This all shows that 'strength' is the core virtue of life. Without strength, there is no life.

Keep in mind I am not making any argument here I just describe my own internal experience. Now for the opinion part: 

I don't think Israel should wipe off Gaza or make civilians needlessly suffer but there shouldn't be a ceasefire either until Hamas is defeated and brought to justice. I think Israel is showing it can achieve this goal though it will take a little time. If Israel doesn't remove Hamas and they commit these kinds of massacres again and again then Israel's response will get even harsher because at some point it will justify a real fucking genocide. 
 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You spread self-bias with no remorse.

Much of it is standing up against lies and the incredible bias on the opposite side. Let's not pretend there isn't any there. 

For those who care about objective thinking can use the Israeli perspective as valuable puzzle pieces. 
 

1 hour ago, zazen said:

I will do a gratitude meditation with just that in mind but would like to point out also to Israel and any Isrealis to be grateful to have allies and friends that come to you with good intentions and are not rolling and drowned in the emotions your people are under that blinds your bloodshot vision and fogs your brains in the fog of war.

It can take a dispassionate look at the problems of reality to come to the most compassionate solutions - though those busy in vengeance and war will reframe this otherwise. When the Isreals foot reflexively straightens and pushes down on the accelerator of retaliation and revenge locked into place - be grateful for that friend who will come to dislodge your foot and push the down the brake to divert your nations and peoples course away from the cliff that your actions can not only drag yourselves off of but the regions - maybe even the world including that very friend.

Wise words. I think a reasonable compromise would be: Israel can finish Hamas but must do everything to protect and supply civilians. 

 

34 minutes ago, Nabd said:

How can you type that without the doing the bare minimum of just applying it on yourself?

Just imagine it as a Palestinian. They will say to you: you are extremely naive and should be grateful that you still live as a colonial settler.

I thank God I am born to the comfort and freedom I have. I have nothing but goodwill for Arabs who condemn violence and are pacified like Israeli Arabs. I will choose their side over the ultra-nationalistic racist side.

34 minutes ago, Nabd said:

...and from a Palestinian side its absurd they are being punished for a crime they did not commit.

It's the cosmic ripples of history, It's tragic. We must move forward but admittedly it won't happen in the short or middle term. I can only be optimistic for the long term. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

4 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Its possible to move forward when an Israeli government acknowledge that Israel is a colonial country and actually admit the crimes against natives and that the Brits offered them a chance to act as a spearhead and they took it. Israel is here to stay but not in this form.

If someone is born in Israel then thats his homeland but the first generation were colonists. They were terrified from the Nazis and many were innocent no doubt about that but just like Turkey refuse to admit its genocidie against Syriacs and Armenians, Israel also can't admit it and till they admit it officially and issue an apology and a plan for peace then expect only blood and stabbings and more inflitrations like the last one.

Even if we don't consider the Jewish historical and 'spiritual' connection to the land. You must understand that Israelis consider themselves native. When you live and defend a piece of land you consider it your own. 
 

 

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I glad this is over and ended in 2014 with the help of the great Justice minister Tzipi Livn

It ended because Western Media and human right organization made a big deal about it and many reports putting pressure on Israel. But also I read a bit about Tzipi and she seems way more reasonable than the minister of justice recently who called palestinians "little snakes". So there is hope for Israel once this toxic racist current government gets replaced by more sensible people like Tzipi. A far left wing government would help Israel a lot regarding Palestine I think. The hippie peace loving type of people.

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

The thing is that these organizations' data can't be trusted.

Especially Save the Children, there is a lot of critisicm about the credibility of their data and about their true intentions in protecting and advocating for children. They claim to be not biased by they are biased as hell

I sent you many sources. And none of them are Arab sources. If you do not accept any of them it shows more about your biases than anything else. You can also do research yourself, i found plenty of other sources which I did not send here. So plenty of information about it. At least the other guy @Nivsch is objective enough to recognize such stuff happened. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Karmadhi