New War In Israel / Gaza

[jaylimix]

21 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

1) I repeat, it erodes international support by its unilateral nature and its direct targeting of civilians.

2) Its aggressive response against a similar culture turns the countries in the immediate vicinity further hostile.

3) It generates hundreds of thousands more militia fighters ready to attack Israel. It will legitimize Hamas again in many quarters.

4) It legitimacies this response against Israel (and sadly other countries), it actually provides a stepping stone for the next level of response against Israel.

5) America is moving isolationist. They are likely in the Middle East to be replaced or at least rivaled effectively by BRICS. Iran does not like Israel. There is a fair chance that Israel will find less support as a result of this atrocity being committed, and given America's pull towards isolationism, could see themselves undermined significantly.

1) For people like you who believes they target civilians, yes it does erodes support, but for people who believes that the IDF targets Hamas' only and there are civilian deaths in the cross fire, no it does not erode support. For extremist like me, the IDF can do whatever they want.

2) Yes that is true for the plebs population, but may not be true for its leaders who secretly wants Hamas destroyed and would rather have a good relationship with Israel and the US for mutual economic developments.

3) This is valid, Muslims will fight for Muslims.

4) That is what the Muslims will say.

5) I don't think so, the next POTUS who likely will be a Republican i.e. Trump/Haley/Desantis are all strong supporters of Israel, the shared tech between the two countries makes an unbreakable bond.  

Edited December 12, 2023 by jaylimix

[jaylimix]

6 minutes ago, kenway said:

What are you even talking about?

The growth and building of human civilization.

[jaylimix]

17 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Nor see this level of justification (from several viewpoints) for slaughter outside of a book or movie. It's honestly a learning experience. 

It's more like I couldn't care less about the Palestinians.

The Palestinians created Hamas to fight and kill for them, and kill they did, brutally. 

You can see videos of them cheering for the death of Israelis, a recent poll also shows their support for Hamas.

And they started the first domino. It's all a self created reality.

Collectively punishing them is justified, though I can see that Israel is not actually doing that.

Edited December 12, 2023 by jaylimix

[Raze]

1 hour ago, jaylimix said:

Personally I have never known a war as moral as this one.

Telling civilians to move south also meant telling the enemy where you want to strike, giving them the advance whilst disadvantaged yourself.

Opening up humanitarian corridors, helping babies in incubators to move.

I conclude the IDF is the most moral army in the world.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/03/gaza-premature-babies-dead-nasr/

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Nabd said:

@Raze The thing is there is no need to invade Iran.

If the US actually wanted, they could have armed the Iranian Kurds there or help the secular revolution that broke out again and again but the west left them alone to be terrorized. They don't even cover them in western media.

Or even better, just arm the local resistance against Iran in countries like Syria and Iraq. Arm the Druze and south Syrians and they will protect the border of Israel too, not because they are in love with Israel but because they know Iran is a brutal enemy. The US doesn't want to and refused to arm any anti-Iran rebel group in Syria for example. They only offered to arm Syrian Kurds under one condition which is to not fight Iran.

The US has funded many anti Iran rebels in Syria and unintentionally armed the Taliban who are also anti Iran.

There is really no indication the US can just start a civil war in Iran, they’ve been having protests but that’s not enough.

What exactly would this accomplish? Should the US also try arming rebels against Israel’s current government, after all the US claims to want a Palestinian state but Netanyahu doesn’t.

[Raze]

50 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

He laughed about babies being burned alive in an oven, he called a man who thought that his daughter was killed/kidnapped a wanker and cu**.

So of course I hate the guy.

There is something seriously wrong with you to side with him.

He was laughing because the story was obvious propaganda. It was already shown to be, even the Israeli media is reporting the baby in the oven incident was made up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war#Dead_baby_in_oven_claim
 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Raze

[jaylimix]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

He was laughing because the story was obvious propaganda. It was already shown to be, even the Israeli media is reporting the baby in the oven incident was made up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war#Dead_baby_in_oven_claim

 

The Wiki page you provided, on the dead oven baby, quoted sources from [32][33][34], two from Haaretz which is a mouthpiece for the enemy, another one from an unknown news network.

I would take the testimonial of Eli Beer over Wikipedia, Aljazeerah, and the Twitter user who is strongly anti-Israel.

This is Eli Beer.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/head-of-israels-ems-service-describes-horror-of-seeing-babies-slaughtered-by-hamas/

Will you all just stop with your BS atrocity denial? 

Edited December 12, 2023 by jaylimix

[jaylimix]

@Raze

Let me add one more thing.

Today's journalist are more of a propagandist than a fighter of truth, did they always lack journalistic integrity? I don't know.

The last person you should trust is a journalist, look at them, look at how bias they are.

You need to take your chances with the testimonials of rescue workers and hospital morgue workers.

[jaylimix]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

 

Imagine you are two different persons, imagine yourself to be because I want you to understand something.

1) You are standing outside, and you threw a Molotov cocktail from outside the house at a window.

2) You physically picks up a baby, put it in the oven, and then turn it on, while you hear the baby scream, you cheer.

Do you see what I am trying to tell you?

Trying to draw a moral equivalence here shows your moral compass is broken.

Another thing to note is that settlers are not the IDF, again you need to draw a distinction here.

 

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, jaylimix said:

I am NOT a Jew, Israeli, Arab, or a Muslim, for me there is no veil of self-bias, threat of career destruction, or financial incentive.

By default this already makes me a better judger of the situation, and I stand with Israel.

I get you. You have a common sense and you are able to see the big picture and understand that it's a war of barbaric values against more conscious ones.

And you prefer the conscious ones, obviously, because that's how society evolve.

You are on the sane spectrum of humanity.

[Lila9]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement

There are Yemeni terrorists who bomb ships with goods coming to Israel. And bomb Israel from the southern side. They are doing that everyday.

Their moto is:

"Death to America, death to Israel, curse on the Jews and victory to Islam"

Same values as... Hamas.

They are responsible for the expulsion of the last Jewish families in Yemen.

And they are not occupied by Jews.

Any excuses to their toxic ideology, antisemitism, anti American agenda, and Muslim superiority agenda?

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

850,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. In 1948, their homes were occupied by Muslim Arabs in the middle east and North Africa. Not to mention all the territory and homes Jews lost during the WW2 across Europe.

Could they just go and commit terror attacks against innocent Arabs across the middle east? Across Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen? 

Across Europe? Germany, Poland?

Could they just go and rape them, burn them and kidnap them? Would that be a legitimate resistance?

If Israel doesn't belong to Jews, then these territories across the middle east and Europe which were occupied by Muslims and Christians must belong to them. No? There was a time when their grandparents or great-grandparents lived there, even though they never lived there themselves, but according to the Palestinian logic, it must belong to them if their grandparents used to live there. No?

If Jews should leave Israel and Free Palestine 'from the river to the sea' (Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea btw, for those who have no idea what river and what sea) is that mean that the Jewish occupied homes across the middle east, Europe and North Africa should be free too? 🤔

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Def not.

So justice is biased if you are Israel?

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Personally I have never known a war as moral as this one.

Telling civilians to move south also meant telling the enemy where you want to strike, giving them the advance whilst disadvantaged yourself.

Opening up humanitarian corridors, helping babies in incubators to move.

I conclude the IDF is the most moral army in the world.

The 18.000 civilian dead shows otherwise.

Ukraine war happening for 2 years and 10.000 civilians dead from 40 milion population.

Here 2 months and 2x dead out of a population 20 times smaller.

Apparently I found a more moral war   

[zazen]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:03 AM, jaylimix said:

I completely reject the death toll coming out from Gaza Health Ministry and so should you all reading this.

The GHM is under Hamas' controlled, who uses the death toll as war propaganda, where they specifically highlight a high number of dead children.

And let us not forget the combatants' death toll, rats who hides underground, whos death matters less than literal rats.

Israel is NOT evil, they do care about civilians, asking them to mouth south, calling off airstrikes if there are too many civilians around.

The same cannot be said about me, I don't care about dead Palestinian children.

You're still spewing your hate. You're either trolling, deluded, or a recruit from the Israeli propaganda department known as Hasbara who volunteer to go on social media platforms to disseminate pro Israeli talking points and participate on forums and blogs. 

Theirs quite a difference noticed between people who tend to lean towards Israel or Palestine - it seems Israeli propaganda has gone so far up your butt hole in dehumanising the other side.  

Israel apologists throw up every distraction and red herring they can think of to try and drag opposition to Israel’s mass atrocities off course. 'Most moral army of the world', 'fight of light vs darkness', 'stop criticizing Israel’s actions. look over there, not over here at our massacring.'

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The whole point now - because of the attack - it is not about politics anymore but about raw survival for Israel.

Do you know what raw survival is?

It is when your enemy can take over your country and wipe out all your people.

Do you really believe Hamas could have taken over Israel?

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

I get you. You have a common sense and you are able to see the big picture and understand that it's a war of barbaric values against more conscious ones.

And you prefer the conscious ones, obviously, because that's how society evolve.

You are on the sane spectrum of humanity.

It seems you as well as many others think that just because you or Israeli society are higher up on spiral dynamics or 'developed'  this means you are better and immune to becoming a dark version of your stages and that allows Israel or developed societies the right to do as they please akin to a colonial mindset. It is flawed to frame it as 'children of light vs darkness' or 'Western democratic angels' vs 'Middle Eastern authoritarian devils' .

You can still be violent and tribal - you just tribalize around and be violent in the name of and for a different set of ‘higher’ values.

Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different unassuming ways. 

You can be a stage green eco terrorist denying the sanctity of human life viewing it as a virus or plague on gaia / mother earth or a stage orange capitalist that though doesn't conquer lands (like stage red) on the geopolitical chess board but now conquers consumers through commerce from within the board room of corporations. A greedy stage red conquerer rapes and pillages land whilst a greedy stage orange capitalist conquers the wallets of consumers and pillages the soul for materialist gain. Similar dynamic unfolding in different ways.

Is a broken orange/green society still better than a healthy red/blue society? Possibly, but a more developed society also has more powerful tools with more leverage and potential for destruction which could make them more of a threat to world peace. A stage red primitive tribe might be sick and dangerous but their destruction will only be localised/limited to their village surroundings whilst a stage orange techno-capitalist superpower though having more inclusive and broader values including democracy and science can inflict a larger negative global impact if this stage becomes sick, pathological or unhealthily manifest.

A highly developed society generally has more powerful instruments / tools, but if the individuals of that society become unhealthy their potential for chaos is greater. The individual and wielder of the tool needs to be just as developed - a parallel match between the individuals development and the tools his developed society bestows him - because the stakes are higher. A sick red society may only cause ripples on the world stage due to their limited tools of power but a developed orange society with more powerful tools will cause a tsunami of damage which is what we’ve seen in the 21st century.

We can use spiral dynamics to make sense of the world or make our sense of self more righteous in relationship to others lower on the spiral.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

850,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. In 1948, their homes were occupied by Muslim Arabs in the middle east and North Africa

Many chose to immigrate to Israel. And that was indeed wrong.

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Could they just go and commit terror attacks against innocent Arabs across the middle east? Across Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen? 

They do it against Palestinians, people that welcomed them with open arms when their precious European friends were wiping them out.

Palestinians treated Jews living there 1000x better than Europeans did for centuries yet the ones that had their land stolen and were oppressed/murdered were Palestinians. Talk about justice...

[zazen]

@Karmadhi @Lila9 Very sad on both sides what happened. It’s almost like a tit for tat in terms of the almost equal number displaced.

Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this historical fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks.
 

 

And no this wasn’t sourced from ‘untrustworthy’ Al Jazeera but from Jewish virtual library. 
 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Do you know what raw survival is?

It is when your enemy can take over your country and wipe out all your people.

Do you really believe Hamas could have taken over Israel?

You are enormously underestimate the survival position Israel is found in.

This is not only the physical survival as much as its identity survival according to the feeling and knowing we are so much better than those terorrists as we holds our values too, but when your friends and family who hold similar values don't believe you, and you have to prove them all when the virus took over you made them believe him(!) again and again.

Dont take this words in a strict logical way but as an emotional metaphor to show the existential psychological serious crisis Israel is found in which is very real, and not less painful than if it was only a physical one.

Then you will be in a position to understand better why her brakes are looser now against this virus (hamas).

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch