New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

 

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Two things

1) From a self-preservation standpoint knowing your neighbors, why are you catering to their most dangerous and worst tendencies?

2) Yes. And Israel has given them hundreds of thousands more recruits, an excuse to do what they are doing, and legitimacy for a more extreme position or government.

In their mind, they are not terrorists but fighting outside invaders. Why is it you can't see that one action creates the consequences of the next? Why do you think everything happens in a vacuum?

Any excuse? There is an ethnic cleansing going on nearby. If that happened in Europe you can be sure we'd be up in arms. Russia tried a horrific but different version of destroying a culture or way of life they didn't like, and united almost the whole continent against them.

1. What else can be done? There were great attempts of Israel to make peace but they still wanted to destroy Israel, even more than ever. No matter what is done to improve the situation, they always want to destroy.

2. They abuse Israel because they are fueled by toxic ideology, by low and destructive values. There was peace before the October 7 attack. They ruined it. They don't give a fuck about peace, unfortunately.

Don't you understand that not everything in life can be explained by logic? That humans are irrational creatures? That not everything in life can be explained by cause and effect?

That there is devilry in the world which is fueled by irrational and toxic beliefs which cannot be resolved by tolerating it and giving the other cheek?

 

 

[Lila9]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Many chose to immigrate to Israel. And that was indeed wrong.

They were kiked out as a "revenge".

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

They do it against Palestinians, people that welcomed them with open arms when their precious European friends were wiping them out.

Palestinians treated Jews living there 1000x better than Europeans did for centuries yet the ones that had their land stolen and were oppressed/murdered were Palestinians. Talk about justice...

They didn't welcomed them with "open arms". They were suspicious of them and terrorized them since the presence of the Othman empire because they felt intimidated.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

15 hours ago, zazen said:

It seems you as well as many others think that just because you or Israeli society are higher up on spiral dynamics or 'developed'  this means you are better and immune to becoming a dark version of your stages and that allows Israel or developed societies the right to do as they please akin to a colonial mindset. It is flawed to frame it as 'children of light vs darkness' or 'Western democratic angels' vs 'Middle Eastern authoritarian devils' .

You can still be violent and tribal - you just tribalize around and be violent in the name of and for a different set of ‘higher’ values.

Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different unassuming ways. 

Yet, with all of your wording, it summes up to a war of values.

Living in a society with stage red values vs stage orange, I don't even need to explain what are the differences because I assume you know, and which is better to live in. Relatively, not ideally. If you have to choose, most likely it would be orange.

And it's not wise to be letinant with stage red. This is the flaw of green, this demonization of self defense, of having healthy bounderies, of being ruthless with those who are ruthless with you.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

It lights up not only this thread but the entire forum 🕎🌞

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?

 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

It lights up not only this thread but the entire forum 🕎🌞

I think this thread is already challenging enough goal to light 🤣😂

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

1. What else can be done? There were great attempts of Israel to make peace but they still wanted to destroy Israel, even more than ever. No matter what is done to improve the situation, they always want to destroy.

2. They abuse Israel because they are fueled by toxic ideology, by low and destructive values. There was peace before the October 7 attack. They ruined it. They don't give a fuck about peace, unfortunately.

Don't you understand that not everything in life can be explained by logic? That humans are irrational creatures? That not everything in life can be explained by cause and effect?

That there is devilry in the world which is fueled by irrational and toxic beliefs which cannot be resolved by tolerating it and giving the other cheek?

 

 

1) We already had this discussion:

Yes Hamas wanted to destroy you. Very true. They committed a horrific act. What was Israel's response? A horrific act of greater magnitude.

Someone else would just argue morals with you, i'm not that person. I can use that if affects you, to say you are as bad as they are, worse right now. But what does that matter to your life tomorrow practically? The point I am making, is this action is going to harm your country more than help your country. I am trying to appeal to your survival instinct and self-interest. Trying to show you a larger picture, where isolationism or unilateralism is causing the world itself to split apart, country by country, groups internally inside those countries fracturing, and turning individuals against each other.

Yes we can all act on emotion. My first thought when I saw this was Israel should occupy Gaza. That was my emotional reaction, it is usually my emotional reaction when I see noncombatants harmed. Thankfully I have distance from it, so I was able to logically look at the problem, and calculate better options. Israel instead, and I understand why, acted purely on emotion, they acted unilaterally, and with no regard for anything else except revenge. Had they sort out military and diplomatic allies, they would have obtained a more logical systematic view from perspectives with distance to the tragedy, which by the way didn't necessarily mean altering what course Israel took. At the minimum, this current military effort would have been more effective with international support and expertise, with fewer economic, diplomatic, or security problems for Israel (and America) in the long term.

For the same reason you say humans act irrationally, is the same reason I say they can act rationally. Its a choice you make every day. Often times we are faced with it. Acting purely on emotion results in terrible consequences for our personal lives, and the breakdown of social order. Putting us in jail as an example, or causing relationships of all kinds to break apart when they don't need to. In this case, it results in mass murder, going both ways.

2) Yes Hamas have caused Palestine a great deal of suffering, their actions in response to a chain of choices, have brought about the ruin of their homeland. Again you can see this highlighted in front of you, yet you cannot accept the opposite. You can't see that this sort of closed-loop thinking will result in an obvious consequence of further and now magnified violence towards you and your country. I will repeat, it will cause further security issues, fear/social repression, diplomatic issues, issues with your trade and economy, and yes a wealth of people now willing to throw rockets or bombs into your homeland for the next generations. - In some ways Iran's got exactly what it wants, making you a clear enemy of BRICS in a heavily contested region of the world, and turning most popular opinion against you. On the extreme end, I would not be surprised if Israel became a proxy war within my lifetime, slightly hyperbolic but not much with the pace of BRICS development in that region, and the waning international support that accompanies unilateral military actions.

Edited December 12, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

Part of the reason people on the right are beginning to hate Israel is. They are causing 2 million more refugees. So yes they think about it, but not in the way you think they do. The populist left and even the center, lost the argument you are trying to argue against, its all about self-interest now. I will say racists, nationalists but even more people who just hate migrants (programmed to domestically, turning anger away from economic realities or challenges), are starting to turn against Israel, because they link up what you are doing with problems they are facing themselves. What's 2 million split 20 ways? 100k a piece. Those 20 countries will get the majority of the migrants eventually through the gradual relocation of families, often 'encouraged' by the neighboring states.

So you will cause them 100,000 new migrants. You might say not all will leave, you only leveled half the land. Okay. 50,000 if you manage to limit the war to that single region, somewhat unlikely at this amount of regional tension. You already see people fearmongering about the border and Palestinians entering countries ahead of time, because the people doing it want to get the message out now. So around the globe for right-wingers who hate migration, and people who understand social issues, you are giving everyone the social and economic burden of your actions.

And BTW even if its 5 migrants, the right will still magnify that to be an invading horde for their own propaganda these days.
 

Edited December 12, 2023 by BlueOak

[Lila9]

39 minutes ago, zazen said:

So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?

These refugees who are living in other Arab countries, not in Israel. Do you care about them? Have you bothered to check their conditions?

Is your motivation for advocating for the rights of the Palestinians in Israel in particular, stems from your love to the Palestinians as a group or your hatred towards Israelies?

If you love and care about Palestinians, then you should love and care about all the Palestinians elsewhere and put accountable not only Israel for mistreating them, but all the countries who have them, for mistreating them because they do mistreat them and worse than Israel could ever imagine.

If you care only about the Palestinians in Israel, even though there are other Palestinian refugees in suffering, then it might be because you don't like Israel, and your main motivation is hatred for Israel rather than love for Palestinians.

 

 

 

[kenway]

 

Daniel Levy - former Israeli Advisor on Netanyahu

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by kenway
context

[zazen]

@Lila9  You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t  open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting.

You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself.

If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’
 

How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge.

Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves.

@BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

They didn't welcomed them with "open arms". They were suspicious of them and terrorized them since the presence of the Othman empire because they felt intimidated.

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

If yes then I stand corrected.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

Yes we can all act on emotion. My first thought when I saw this was Israel should occupy Gaza. That was my emotional reaction, it is usually my emotional reaction when I see noncombatants harmed. Thankfully I have distance from it, so I was able to logically look at the problem, and calculate better options. Israel instead, and I understand why, acted purely on emotion, they acted unilaterally, and with no regard for anything else except revenge. Had they sort out military and diplomatic allies, they would have obtained a more logical systematic view from perspectives with distance to the tragedy, which by the way didn't necessarily mean altering what course Israel took. At the minimum, this current military effort would have been more effective with international support and expertise, with fewer economic, diplomatic, or security problems for Israel (and America) in the long term.

I wouldn't say that Israel acted with great wisdom, but I can't say that Israel acted purely on emotions either.

If Israel acted purely on emotions, there was no Palestinian left alive.

On both Gaza and the West Bank. because if Israel's response matched the emotional suffering Israel has experienced because of the October 7 attack, that would be the outcome, no life on Gaza and the West Bank. 

It's easy to judge from outside, when your safety and the safety of your loved ones isn't at risk. It's easy to say, from your pov that you would have done this instead of that, because you are not emotionally involved, because the survival and safety of Israel is not in your best interest. It's just a country with people for you and whether it will be safe or at risk won't affect your life and survival that much.

This is why it's easy for you to talk about logic and cold calculations.

I'm not disrespecting logic and calculations, I think that strategy and certain emotional distance is required to get good results and it's part of the solution. And I think that given the circumstances, Israel's response is quite logical. 

I know that you and others here expect super hero holistic, systemic stage yellow solution to the conflict, coming from Israel, but you need to understand that Israel has limitations as well, Israel's government and army are not yellow to pull of such solutions. There is no government in the world who is like that, currently. Not in your country, and not in any country. That's rare.

A country is considered very lucky if it has at least one person in the government with stage yellow thinking.

Israel's government has mainly blue/orange values while the military has orange values mainly. 

Israel's neighbors are not Sweden or Denmark, so Israel cannot allow themselves to appear too indifferent to terror because this seen as weakness in this region and it's very easily gets exploited.

In fact, Israel's recent indifference until the October 7 attack was what gave Hamas the opportunity to commit the attack. With neighbors such Hamas, you can't get to a peaceful solution, or reconciliation. It's either they win and you lose or you lose and they win.

Israel tried to be peaceful, it didn't work, it made things worse for Israel, it gave Hamas the opportunity to become stronger and become more dangerous.

It's not to say that Israel can't be criticized. That's valid. But there is a serious problem if Israel is the only one who gets critized.

It shows that the criticism is not objective and heavily biased, fueld by ill intentions. 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Karmadhi]

@Lila9

40 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

If yes then I stand corrected.

All of this happened BEFORE October 7th attack and I am not talking about Gaza here.

I dont know what October 7th has to do with any of this.

30 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

military has orange values

Very blue to me. Not red, they seem more of a nazi bullet to the head heartless type and little emotions while Hamas is more emotional, screaming and kills you with a sword. Nazis vs Mongolians. Both are bad of course. But that is my opinion.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[BlueOak]

@Lila9

YES Its easier to judge from an outside perspective, that's why you go to it for clarity! People with distance are not operating purely on emotion, they can give us a perspective we lack in any situation. That's also why we listen to other people with the opposite view to ours to form a framework to operate out of. That's the whole point! (Its much of the point of life too)

You can obtain near-systematic thinking just by listening to enough perspectives and involving them in the discussion! Because they are the system! Or you can do it all yourself, but like you say fewer people are capable of modeling a situation sufficiently in their mind, and everyone is flawed or more vulnerable to gaps in logic on their own when they try. I can only do it to the degree I've studied and absorbed the subject, usually by encountering people who have challenged my perspective to deepen it. Collectively though you can do it with a group much easier.

Simply. How you get worse results, is just doing what comes into your own head, or even worse what you think is a good idea in the moment. How you get better results is constantly engaging with many other viewpoints on a subject, until you understand it well enough to form a multi-faceted conclusion.

The point is taken that I don't live in the level of fear Israeli's do. That I am not used to the same intensity in our actions here, if anything my bias is near the opposite of intensity, its comfort. But that means I can give you something you currently lack, the completely opposite side of this, not the Palestinian side, the actual opposite. The guy the other side of the world viewing this and deciding what it means going forward in our dealings with your country. The entire world is connected, in so many ways, and you will be affected by the actions you take. - At the bare minimum you get to address how you speak to that voice, you get to begin to form answers to questions you will hear repeated for the next 20, 30, 50 years of your life here and now.

However, as i've said a 100 times, you don't just use the stick on a problem, you use the carrot and the stick. No matter your country's stage of development, that's a universal thing. Unilateral action by a state rarely works out for the best, for anyone, including the state itself. 

Now what else do you want me to say about Palestinians to make you feel better, if that is possible, I can try.
Other than Hamas have caused their entire country to fall apart and their homeland to burn? What other criticism is needed? 
This whole if you are not with us you are against us, is a deep problem you have personally and collectively. To some people, it would create enemies where none exist. To me, I just see it as your pain expressed, and the suffering you've endured looking for an outlet, and for that, you have my deepest sympathies. I hope when this all ends, life is better, despite all my pessimism and seeing cycles repeat.

[Karmadhi]

31 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There is no government in the world who is like that, currently. Not in your country, and not in any country. That's rare.

Sure, but I do heavily feel Israel can do much better than Benjamin and Ben Gavir in government.

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@Lila9  You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t  open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting.

You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself.

If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’
 

How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge.

Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves.

@BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

I asked you a question first and you haven't answered it, so you are not in a place to say that I don't answer your questions. Answer my question first and then I will answer yours, I really want to know. Do you care about other Palestinians outside of Israel territory? Or do you close your eyes to the mistreatment of Palestinians outside of Israel because they are mistreated by non Israelies?

If you say that Israel doesn't have the right to exist because of the way it exists now, for me it means that you believe Israel has no right to exist. You can't sugarcoat it. You've tried I know, but your truth is obvious for me. No more word games are required.

Are there more countries you believe have no right to exist the way they exist? Or Israel is the only one?

If Israel's existence is not in your best interest, and you consume this great amount of cherry picked content on social media to rationalize your bias, I don't think that you are in a place to call me a propagandist.

This is very childish and disrespectful indeed, to call someone you don't agree with a propagandist. It also shows that you don't want to learn and make a productive discussion with those whose their lives are directly affected by the conflict. It seems you just want to hold your bias close to your chest, and it also seems that you have the arrogance to look from the far distance and cancel our perspective completely by calling it a propaganda just because it doesn't match your bias.

I speak my very reality and the reality of people here who care about Israel and love it. We are mainly fueled by love to Israel, not by hatred to Palestinians. This is the motivation.

Don't fool yourself by calling your opinions objective and more logical, because your opinions about the conflict based on emotional motivation. Behind logic there are emotional motivations.

This is why I asked you what I asked you, to understand your fundamental emotional motivation of your opinions about the conflict, is this love or hatred?

I'm aware of the flaws of Israel and the problems here, it's not perfect, but it's not the demon you draw.

There is no shame in emotions and love, I didn't know that it's a crime to support the country I live in and I also didn't know that you are holding the ultimate truth and everything that doesn't match your biased and limited perspective is a propaganda.

I don't try to convince you in my truth, I'm fine with you thinking differently than me, and feeling differently than me, I share what I know, take it or leave it.

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

If yes then I stand corrected.

They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot parents in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible. You compare cases of a few radical Jews which saddens most of the Israelies given that it really happened, to a terror policy against Jews and Israel that many Palestinians, if not the majority of the Palestinians, were ok with and celebrated on the streets.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Lila9

[kenway]

8 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot kids in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible.

Oh please. Just stop already. You're embarrassing yourself. 90% of what you have just written is objective dogshit.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by kenway