New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

I also apologize if I am coming across as too logical rather than emotional or understanding of your emotional state. I have a bias towards wanting to avoid aggression and violence. So any lessening of it I can inspire in anyone, I will usually go out of my way to do. In whatever form works.

I understand that you have bias of avoiding aggression and violence. I don't think that I'm pro it either.

This is normal. The last thing that I want is to be in a situation of a war. 

What I'm trying to say is that we have entered to this war because of this severe expression of violence and aggression towards us and if many in Israel previously believed that this conflict can be resolved peacefully and comfortably, this time there is collective realization or awakening that we don't have an ally for a peaceful and comfortable resolutions, we are dealing with psychopaths who can't tolerate our mere existence that would have eliminate us if they only could, with great pride.

 

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

I do not say things I don't honestly feel or mean. My words only have value if they are truthfully what I am thinking or feeling. The power is mostly with you all, not Hamas currently, they are almost powerless in pure reaction to survive but I think you all feel that way too. Perhaps the energy and focus is best put in showing you that you do have options, power, and a real say in how this goes. Survival thinking is not your only option, you did (and still do have a few allies left willing to help), though you are creating the pure isolationism you feel to be reflected in the world around you. That is a choice on your part, and I wish at least you could understand that you help create and shape the wider reality you experience going forward.

It's not that simple, if you deal with stage red mentality you have to show power, you can't be an hippie seeking comfort. It has been tried many times, didn't work. Made things worse. You assume that we should avoid being agressive in all costs to solve agression.

But there are situations when agression is necessary, especially if it prevents even bigger aggression and violence.

[Ash55]

13 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Yes I am. My perspective and the perspective of other Israelies here is valid.

i do understand that most Israelis just wanna live in peace, and most people there opened their eyes  on wars and conflicts, but i hope we reach one state where both side coexist peacefully
@Lila9 well stay safe there

 

 

13 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Yes lol

But better to be 6 than 4.

lol yeah, and i hope the 4 yo dont get killed too

 

[BlueOak]

28 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

we are dealing with psychopaths

...

It's not that simple, if you deal with stage red mentality you have to show power, you can't be an hippie seeking comfort. It has been tried many times, didn't work. Made things worse. You assume that we should avoid being agressive in all costs to solve agression.

But there are situations when agression is necessary, especially if it prevents even bigger aggression and violence.

1) No you are not. You are dealing with a % of the population who has become radicalized, more so now because of your actions. Only 1 in 200 people are born psychopaths. 

2) As I have said in other threads and this one, there were multiple ways to handle this situation, you have chosen genocide. Do not make me out to be a hippy, when in previous conversations I have said airstrikes and covert action, such as professional special forces, to recover hostages should have been part of any operation. These methods should have been used first, and then if you wanted to conduct this campaign when the hostages were recovered, you still could have. Allies should have been brought in first, giving you political legitimacy, outside resources, and a cushion that isn't just one lone president Biden being vilified by the world. - I won't repeat it all, its in the thread I linked. For all the reasons i've already discussed, it would have been better for you long term, when your emotion dies down, to have gone this route.

You have a black-and-white understanding of reality. Where people need to be one or the other. That is not how life is. Its very complicated, with many factors, and a lot of emotion here especially.
 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 @BlueOak If we didn't have hostages to save, then we could argue about more creative ways to eliminate hamas as you suggested a month ago I remember and it was interesting to read.

but as long as we have hostages that hamas didn't agree to release without the military pressure, I don't know if we could have another option.

You don't effectively recover hostages by carpet bombing areas.

You effectively recover hostages by making them the priority first. Surgical precision is needed to recover hostages, and is more beneficial in war time anyway. All of that was at your disposal a certain level domestically and much more internationally. There was a wealth of special forces, intelligence operatives and others that would have been happy to help at the start of this. As well as precision airpower and missiles.

I have come to realise Israel thinks it's alone, even now. It acts alone and it's creating a reality where it will become more alone. Someone will turn around in the future and say look we are alone now, and I will have to try and explain how you got there. You are making what you feel a reality.

*I want to also say thank you for acknowledging I was trying to help, at the least, the guy sitting thousands of miles away looking at this is not your enemy, they never were.

Edited December 13, 2023 by BlueOak

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I think we had a missunderstanding. I was referring to whether Jews when they arrived in Palestine during WW2 were treated as bad as Palestinians are treated in the West Bank through the last decades. And I gave examples of the treatment above. So I am talking about the way Jews in Palestine were treated between 1940 to 1947 or so.

I asked because you rejected my claim that Jews were treated with open arm by Palestine between 1940 to 1947. My question was, was that treatment as bad as the stuff I wrote above?

The thing is that there were attacks on Jews during these years prior to Israel's establishment, therefore it wouldn't be correct to say that they were welcomed by Arabs with open arms, because they didn't. 

And it's not like there were Arabs once attacking Jews and it's ended after Israel's established and the occupation of the WB, these attacks have never ended, they have gotten worse during the years and Israel responded to these attacks.

You criticize the mistreatment of Israel of the Palestinians which is valid, but what you are missing is that the Palestinians in the WB are not innocent. It was another thing if they were innocent, and if it was the case, and they were like the Jews in the gettos in the holocaust, I would have been the first to advocate for them.

But in reality they live just fine, they have quality of life, they are not starving, they have cool businesses there, many of them are working in Israel.

Yet, many of them still constantly try to kill and terrorize Israelies, and they come with creative ideas each time which require the soliders to be more paranoid and alert each time.

They exploit good or fair treatment to commit terror. There were so many times where Palestinian women went to the checkpoints with a belly that appears pregnant and requested to pass into Israel in order to get treatment and later it has been found that she is not pregnant but carry an exploitive device or knife with the purpose to stab as many people as she could.

That's why checkpoints are the way they are, everyday some Palestinians are trying to pass to Israel with ill intentions of killing.

Not to mention how many times Palestinians killed settlers or just random Israeli people who mistakenly got to the WB because of disruptions in GPS, they are usually welcomed with a mass of people throwing rocks on their cars and they are lucky if they ending up alive.

When we are talking about rocks we are not talking about little stones but about heavy rocks, this area in particular is full of these and they are a dangerous weapon like any other weapon.

And all the times Palestinians managed to enter to the Israeli territory and committed terror attacks and suicidal attacks, against random Israeli people.

So the picture is much more nuanced than Israelies not treating well Palestinians because they are being 'evil occupiers' and rasicts, or the claim that Palestinians are like the Jews in gettos in the Holocaust.

Which is a complete distortion of the reality.

If I or any random Israeli person want to go to the WB, there is no promise that we will end up alive or not injured, while if a Palestinian enters to the Israeli territory, which happens everyday because there are many workers from Palestine, it's more likely that they will return back to their homes in the Palestinian territories safely and alive.

 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak I really don't think it is realistic to bring back the hostages by special operations, except for only couple of hostages to the at most. Only by deal.

And thank you too! I appreciate that 🙏

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

43 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

1) No you are not. You are dealing with a % of the population who has become radicalized, more so now because of your actions. Only 1 in 200 people are born psychopaths. 

This population always was radicalized. You think that you can apply here logic without taking into account toxic ideology which is an emotional attachment to certain beliefs. Antisemitic and anti Israel beliefs which was much before Israel's establishment.

46 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

2) As I have said in other threads and this one, there were multiple ways to handle this situation, you have chosen genocide. 

This is far from being a genocide, to scream that this is a genocide in every opportunity is highly biased and irrational.

This is a well planned military operation given the Israel's development limitations, a war between two parties which Israel didn't start.

55 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

You have a black-and-white understanding of reality. Where people need to be one or the other. That is not how life is. Its very complicated, with many factors, and a lot of emotion here especially.

Just because you judge black and white thinking doesn't mean you are immune to that.

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Ash55 said:

i do understand that most Israelis just wanna live in peace, and most people there opened their eyes  on wars and conflicts, but i hope we reach one state where both side coexist peacefully
@Lila9 well stay safe there

Thank you 🌹

[BlueOak]

2 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

This population always was radicalized. You think that you can apply here logic without taking into account toxic ideology which is an emotional attachment to certain beliefs. Antisemitic and anti Israel beliefs which was much before Israel's establishment.

This is far from being a genocide, to scream that this is a genocide in every opportunity is highly biased and irrational.

This is a well planned military operation given the Israel's development limitations, a war between two parties which Israel didn't start.

Just because you judge black and white thinking doesn't mean you are immune to that.

I usually use the words ethnic cleansing. It certainly is that. Removing a population, culture or ethnic group from an area. 50%+ of which is now rubble. After that, the definition of genocide is usually numbers. I used it to provoke an emotional response in you. To get you to look at it, because I know it resonates personally with the history of your people.

If it helps to repeat the obvious, yes Hamas were toxic, but that isn't a sufficient word. Hamas brought about the destruction of their own people, they were self-destructive, they viewed you as invaders, and the world as a battleground. That's probably as self-destructive as you can get, they are literally killing themselves both in a spiritual sense (attacking a part of themselves they hate) , but also practically fighting a much larger opponent, because they were radicalized through a chain of events, even to the point that death is somehow a benefit to them. It is certainly not the only place this is visible, its an ongoing radicalization of the youth at present in many countries, with different expressions, even in Western ones.

If you want to kid yourself that turning an area to rubble, in an attempt to get hostages back, is a well-planned military operation you can. It's simply false. The goal here is to get rid of Hamas and the Palestinian presence in the north of Gaza, in that yes its somewhat well executed. Maximum force brought to bear on an opponent while minimizing your own casualties. The long-term fallout of acting unilaterally is something I can't impart to you, despite trying with so many posts. I guess the only way is for you to live it. I could try again and say this was because of a chain events you were part of, you were not just victims, but also part of this situation that has manifested, but you are right, logic can't be applied to emotion while the suffering is as raw as it is.

Just don't try to apply logic to those you hate either, because they are feeling the same thing.

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak Every such term like "ethnic cleansing" is totally meaningless and no more than a slogan when being related out of the bigger context.

In the bigger context, hamas kidnapped and murdered our people, left Israel no option but to fight back to eliminate him or at least 95% of him before it will agree to release them all.

hamas is a gerilla organization knows it is weaker than organized militaries, hence developed through its evolution a strategy we can compare to a smart virus who uses healthy cells and also diguise itself to them, in order to survive.

And when you have 10,000s terror targets to attack, it is impossible to think every single time how to hurt only terrorists, and not by mistake also healthy cells, even if you try your best.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

@Nivsch
Quote:
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

If Israel intends to settle that area after they are done, this is exactly what is happening in the North of Gaza.

 

[Leo Gura]

If you guys wanna be serious, you should take into account that no political group is a monolith. There are people in the Israel government who legit want to do genocide and there are others who don't. And they fight with each other. The same is true on the Palestinian side.

If you treat any of these sides as monoliths you will end up with a childish view of the situation and nothing will get solved.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak This mathematics of definitions is meaningless to me when out of the context sorry.

In 1940s in Germany there were also all of that done by the allies to defeat the nazis and much more extreme.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

I usually use the words ethnic cleansing. It certainly is that. Removing a population, culture or ethnic group from an area. 50%+ of which is now rubble. After that, the definition of genocide is usually numbers. I used it to provoke an emotional response in you. To get you to look at it, because I know it resonates personally with the history of your people.

I don't agree that this definition of ethnical cleansing applies either, or at least, I would say that it's too early to use this term.

I don't think that you can call evacuation of people to save their lives as ethnical cleansing. Would you prefer them to be bombed and killed instead?

And we haven't know yet how this evacuation would end, chances they will return to this territory, not immediately thought, but it's very likely.

It seems that people seek to use these big words, and when they actually use this, they do that in a disproportionate manner.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

If you want to kid yourself that turning an area to rubble, in an attempt to get hostages back, is a well-planned military operation you can. It's simply false.

The thing is that there are attempts to bring hostages back through military operation. A very few of them were successful, others not. It's not easy and it puts the hostages lives at risk.

Some people who returned back from the captivity said that they hoped the military wouldn't try to save them through military operation because they constantly were near Hamas terrorists who threatened to kill them if they suspected the military is too close. 

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

If it helps to repeat the obvious, yes Hamas were toxic, but that isn't a sufficient word. Hamas brought about the destruction of their own people, they were self-destructive, they viewed you as invaders, and the world as a battleground. That's probably as self-destructive as you can get, they are literally killing themselves both in a spiritual sense (attacking a part of themselves they hate) , but also practically fighting a much larger opponent, because they were radicalized through a chain of events, even to the point that death is somehow a benefit to them. It is certainly not the only place this is visible, its an ongoing radicalization of the youth at present in many countries, with different expressions, even in Western ones.

Yes I agree that Israel has some responsibility in Hamas radicalization, there are some chain events which helped to Hamas become more radical, but this is not necessarily negative chain events like puting more pressure on Palestinians or worsening their conditions, like many people in your position probably assume.

In fact it was the quite opposite, the letinant approach of Israel, the indifference to the terror, the naivity at the beginning of Hamas when it only formed itself, are the mistakes and the chain events which led to this radicalization.

Many stupid and naive mistakes of the Israeli government, the pride and the underestimation of the capabilities and intentions of their enemy.

This is a classic mistake, the underestimation of the enemy.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

 I could try again and say this was because of a chain events you were part of, you were not just victims, but also part of this situation that has manifested, but you are right, logic can't be applied to emotion while the suffering is as raw as it is.

Just don't try to apply logic to those you hate either, because they are feeling the same thing.

Israel has responsibility, chain events Israel was part of but not the chain events that you might think it was, as I explained above.

In a war there are no winners, only losers, and we are all losers, both the Israelies and the Palestinians, of this conflict.

We are the victims of our Karma, our mistakes, our bad choices, beliefs and same are the Palestinians, they are the victims of their Karma, their mistakes, their bad choices and beliefs.

This is only up to us to resolve our Karma, same as this is only up to them to resolve their Karma.

 

 

[Nivsch]

@Lila9 wow I also just thought about it before I saw your message. When a giant shouty word is used to explain a situation ("genocide", "atrocities" etc) this is always or mostly an escape from seeing the bigger context, the validity of the other side's pov and like an emergency compensation word the amigdala fires you to do to feel comfortable and calm again.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

@Nivsch
Honestly. Do you think I have a habit of omitting details in these discussions? If anything I put too much into my posts.

You are correct though moralizing is used as a convenient cudgle all throughout society. Me I just use what works. Sometimes going full green as they say here is very effective. Other times practically showing people A-B-C is. Other times weighting your message socialist, capitalist, authoritarian or liberal works, it depends on what you want to achieve or who you are speaking to.



 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you guys wanna be serious, you should take into account that no political group is a monolith. There are people in the Israel government who legit want to do genocide and there are others who don't. And they fight with each other. The same is true on the Palestinian side.

If you treat any of these sides as monoliths you will end up with a childish view of the situation and nothing will get solved.

Appreciate and understand. 

I will try to be more careful to that.

We must have a less extreme more centrist government as soon as possible 😤😶‍🌫️

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

@Lila9

 

55 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I don't agree that this definition of ethnical cleansing applies either, or at least, I would say that it's too early to use this term.

I don't think that you can call evacuation of people to save their lives as ethnical cleansing. Would you prefer them to be bombed and killed instead?

And we haven't know yet how this evacuation would end, chances they will return to this territory, not immediately thought, but it's very likely.

It seems that people seek to use these big words, and when they actually use this, they do that in a disproportionate manner.

The thing is that there are attempts to bring hostages back through military operation. A very few of them were successful, others not. It's not easy and it puts the hostages lives at risk.

Some people who returned back from the captivity said that they hoped the military wouldn't try to save them through military operation because they constantly were near Hamas terrorists who threatened to kill them if they suspected the military is too close. 

Yes I agree that Israel has some responsibility in Hamas radicalization, there are some chain events which helped to Hamas become more radical, but this is not necessarily negative chain events like puting more pressure on Palestinians or worsening their conditions, like many people in your position probably assume.

In fact it was the quite opposite, the letinant approach of Israel, the indifference to the terror, the naivity at the beginning of Hamas when it only formed itself, are the mistakes and the chain events which led to this radicalization.

Many stupid and naive mistakes of the Israeli government, the pride and the underestimation of the capabilities and intentions of their enemy.

This is a classic mistake, the underestimation of the enemy.

Israel has responsibility, chain events Israel was part of but not the chain events that you might think it was, as I explained above.

In a war there are no winners, only losers, and we are all losers, both the Israelies and the Palestinians, of this conflict.

We are the victims of our Karma, our mistakes, our bad choices, beliefs and same are the Palestinians, they are the victims of their Karma, their mistakes, their bad choices and beliefs.

This is only up to us to resolve our Karma, same as this is only up to them to resolve their Karma.

 

 

Its fair to say evacuation isn't ethnic cleansing.

Its fair to say turning half of the infrastructure to rubble there, and having a history of creating opportunistic settlements (which you then have to justify and defend constantly creating tension), leads people to believe you will resettle these areas as your own. I'd be AMAZED if not one new settlement happens.

Its fair to say it hasn't happened yet. If anything this word is being held up now, so that isn't the course you choose as a people. Heck, I've seen people in Israel saying we'll go further south next as an example. -  If I come back 5 months from now and say you've done ethnic cleansing, what good is it? It would already be done.

It's why its nearly useless trying to get you to see the large fallout regionally or internationally from this, because that has happened, but it can always get worse.

Leniency does not radicalize. Impulsiveness, carelessness, and inattentiveness is the opposite of vigilance, which might create opportunities for mischief, but men and women earning money, feeding their families, and living in relative safety are not prone to becoming terrorists who want to suicide bomb you, or throw rockets over at you, because their lives are mostly stable and their families cared for. 

The worse a situation gets the more you radicalize people. With this action you've not deradicalized anyone, you've created hundreds of thousands of new people willing to do violence across the region. Just like their actions created in you. Again this has perfectly played into Iran's hands, both because of the BRICS angle, American isolationism, many groups having an excuse and gaining a large amount of new recruits.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BlueOak

[Nivsch]

27 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

@Nivsch
Honestly. Do you think I have a habit of omitting details in these discussions? If anything I put too much into my posts.
 

No. I know you are very thorough and tend to deepen with your messages in a postivie way of course but the last message dissmises the reason Israel does what it does and its survival situation from where it acts that people overlook.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

but what you are missing is that the Palestinians in the WB are not innocent. It was another thing if they were innocent, and if it was the case, and they were like the Jews in the gettos in the holocaust, I would have been the first to advocate for them.

I never said it is as bad as the Jewish Ghettos during the Holocaust. But it is not how a first world liberal democracy treats people. It is quite old fashioned. This stuff is nothing new in history. It is all textbook stuff. The issue is that in Israel you have a 21st Century country that treats Palestine with old fashioned racist treatment. Of course it is no near as bad as the Jewish Ghettos, but that is a very low bar to set. Also Palestine did not put the Jews in those ghettos.

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

But in reality they live just fine, they have quality of life, they are not starving, they have cool businesses there, many of them are working in Israel.

They have less rights. Someone with a Palestinian passport living abroad cannot go to West Bank but a Belgian can. Imagine.. I know because I know people that could not go there because they could not enter Israel because of it. Talk about "equal treatment". Also their economy is way worse of partially because of Israel occupation (among other reasons). Hard to develop while being occupied. 

I think you tend to ignore that Israel is an occupying force on the region and kicked millions out.

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

many of them still constantly try to kill and terrorize Israelies, and they come with creative ideas each time which require the soliders to be more paranoid and alert each time.

Shooting kids to practice your aim and laughing about it is not "alert". 

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

When we are talking about rocks we are not talking about little stones but about heavy rocks, this area in particular is full of these and they are a dangerous weapon like any other weapon

So a 7 year old with a stone the size of his small hand can seriously hurt a soldier??? You do realize they lack the strength. I am talking about kids, usually younger than 10 here, not grown adults. And I am not talking about just taking the kids into custody but putting them into a military trial (only country in world that does this), then jailing them for 6 months while they spend the night in a cage on the cold. It is extremally ruthless. I saw a documentary with a British reporter where this thing was happening (putting kids in cages to spend the night on the cold) in the past until human rights organizations forced Israel to stop doing it some years ago. 

Do you think first world liberal democracies in the west like Germany, Norway or Ireland would do such things? Imagine the outrage of the public. Meanwhile in Israel this was endorsed and nobody cared. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Karmadhi