But Leo... How is it possible that no other teachers are AWAKE?

[Artem]

1 hour ago, Davino said:

All psychedelics bind to serotonin 5-HT2A receptors however Salvia does not even touch that receptor. Salvia binds to the  κ-opioid (kappa-opioid) receptor agonist. Maybe psychedelics dont work for you, which is honestly quite sad, you have no idea what you are missing because as you have said you have had no experience, hence your disaproval.

It is extraordinary to what far fetched conclusion your mind jumps to maintain an illusion of your superior spiritual knowledge. I have never said that I never had experiences with psychedelics, and neither have I said that I disapprove of them. I have had thousands of experiences with psychedelics, some tremendously beautiful and some tremendously fearful, some filled with tears, and some filled with rage and anger. I died thousands of times in psychedelic trips and I killed thousands of people in them also. I used psychedelics extensively in my spiritual journey, along with thousands of hours of meditation. I speak about responsible use of psychedelics extensively, and I recommend them to mature spiritual practitioners. I am actually a big proponent of using psychedelics on the spiritual path, for all the reasons stated above.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

Anyway, one thing are psychedelics and another are entheogens.

No, they are the same. Every psychedelic is an entheogen, it's just a matter of dosage. Even cannabis, especially in edible form is an entheogen (if you eat enough). They all work similarly. At some point of my spiritual journey even a small dose of edible cannabis would produce a full-blown trip for me, indistinguishable from an LSD trip. They all work the same way, and they all eventually stop working in enlightenment.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

So almost all entheogens are psychedelics but you can find exceptions like Salvia or Ketamine which are not.

They are one and the same. The only way for a substance to be an entheogen without being a psychedelic is to be a poison. If a substance starts killing your brain, it will be an entheogen. If Salvia is physically safe, like all psychedelics are, it is a psychedelic. Ketamine is a psychedelic for sure.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

Salvia triggers another whole mechanism, so if classic psychedelcis do not work for you because of who knows why, you can still try Salvia, ketamine and many others that produce mystical experiences and hit the brain from different angles.

I've had thousands of mystical experiences on psychedelics until my whole life became a mystical experience for many years, and now it's very ordinary for me, so of course I know why. A completely enlightened mind isn't affected by psychedelics, psychedelics only affect the ego. That's why I'm pretty sure Salvia won't affect me unless it's literally poison and my body (not my ego) will begin to die. I frankly doubt it's the case.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

If you think about it, they only reasing you hold your position is because you haven't been able to have any legit psychedelic experience.

No, the only reason you think I hold this position is that your ego-mind loves jumping to conclusions. I've had thousands of legit psychedelic experiences.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

Which is a rare exeption among all human beings which try psychedelics, so don't extrapolate your case to the whole of humanity.

I don't, you extrapolate your fantasies about me to me. There is not a mind on the planet that wouldn't be affected by a serious dose of DMT. The only exception is an enlightened mind.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

Instead, search and search till you find some molecule that allows you to become more conscious instantly.

I have nothing to search for, I am enlightened and I am always conscious. That's why psychedelics don't affect me.

1 hour ago, Davino said:

I mean how could anyone disaprove a technology that makes you more conscious instantly? It blows my mind really. 

I don't. It's a great technology. The trick though is not becoming "more conscious instantly, but temporarily", the trick is to stay there and remain completely conscious permanently. That's enlightenment. And this requires a little bit more than what @Leo Gurais doing.

What is really mind-blowing in your response is all the assumptions you have made about me. And not a single clarifying question. That's legit mind blowing.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Artem

[Artem]

28 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Is this a troll account? Lol...

No.

28 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Artem smokes Salvia extract, Artem forgets everything and screams deliriously for about 15 minutes and jumps out the window.

This is not going to happen.

28 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

The only reason I don't is because of the way the drug interacts with my brain, which is random luck. It just makes me laugh uncontrollably, and I don't forget I'm on drugs.

There's a reason why you laugh, you just haven't gotten the joke yet. ?

28 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

If my brain was altered in other ways, panic could be reliably reproduced at will.

There's a reason why the mind loves to panic, too. ?

28 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Most people find Salvia extract very frightening and it is more likely than not it would fuck you badly.

This is true, but most people aren't enlightened. No, it wouldn't.

28 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Magic isn't real, special powers aren't real. Fuck the brain and you fuck the human in any qay you desire. Secret powers is fantasy pseudoscience and entirely unrelated to mysticism or metaphysics.

Magic isn't real, correct, and there are no secret powers. Enlightenment isn't magic or secret powers, it's sanity. And a sane mind doesn't panic or gets freaked out while literally nothing is happening. A sick mind does that. A conditioned mind is scared of its own fantasies, that's why delirium, freaking out and other weird stuff. I've had a very significant number of delirious and terrifying experiences on psychedelics whilst my mind was still sick.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Artem

[OldManCorcoran]

@Artem You were likely not "enlightened" at age 10. At least, ignoring the fact that the ground of reality is always "enlightened" (whether it wants to be or not) because I don't believe that is what's being discussed.

Some time after age 10, you made "spiritual progress", and now you can avoid identification with your body mind, which is a trick a lot of sages can pull off. E.g. they can go get surgery and endure pain because they recognize the stillness and bliss that is always present. Something along those lines.

Now, if the Men in Black came along and wiped your memory of every event after age 10 with that flashing device thing, all of your spiritual development would vanish with it... That is why drugs like Datura or Salvia could fuck you up, because that is what they do. Salvia less likely, but Datura is practically guaranteed to wipe out your years of work by simply erasing it from memory like you have literally gone into a time machine to when you were a kid... You won't be spiritually developed anymore, it will be like existing as a new ego just born for the first time.

A more interesting experiment would be when we can map the exact brain elements to activate to induce a panic attack. And induce a panic attack in a lifelong monk... Because when they have surgery without anaesthetic, or are dying of cancers yet still happy, they acknowledge verbally that they feel the pain but don't associate with it... So I'd be curious to see if the same would be true with artificially produced panic... With their body forced into a severe panic attack, screaming, writhing, etc, would they on a deeper level be residing in bliss as they do with pain and self immolation etc? I'd love to see the results of that.

[Artem]

35 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

@Artem You were likely not "enlightened" at age 10. At least, ignoring the fact that the ground of reality is always "enlightened" (whether it wants to be or not) because I don't believe that is what's being discussed.

Of course I wasn't.

35 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Some time after age 10, you made "spiritual progress", and now you can avoid identification with your body mind, which is a trick a lot of sages can pull off. E.g. they can go get surgery and endure pain because they recognize the stillness and bliss that is always present. Something along those lines.

No. The lack of "identification with the body mind" is not enlightenment, it's the very beginning of the spiritual path. It is actually a delusion. I've had a period like this, of course, but it wasn't enlightenment, not yet. Also, I would not want to endure pain just to prove my enlightenment to myself, I'm not an idiot, I have nothing to prove, so of course I'd take anesthesia if I had to have a surgery.

I can't help but notice that you're pretty bad at this. You think you're insightful, don't you?

35 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Now, if the Men in Black came along and wiped your memory of every event after age 10 with that flashing device thing, all of your spiritual development would vanish with it... That is why drugs like Datura or Salvia could fuck you up, because that is what they do. Salvia less likely, but Datura is practically guaranteed to wipe out your years of work by simply erasing it from memory like you have literally gone into a time machine to when you were a kid... You won't be spiritually developed anymore, it will be like existing as a new ego just born for the first time.

No. I am not "spiritually developed", in fact, I am not spiritual at all. And insights are not memory, if you "remember" an insight, you don't have it. Insights are obvious truths which have always been true and are obviously true 24/7. You don't really know what you're talking about, because you haven't made any serious, lasting insights yet, you've had experiences and you carry memory about them. This has nothing to do with enlightenment. Not only Salvia will work this way for you ("erasing" your "memory" of your "spiritual progress"), but any psychedelic in a large enough dosage will also work the same way for you.

35 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

A more interesting experiment would be when we can map the exact brain elements to activate to induce a panic attack. And induce a panic attack in a lifelong monk...

You cannot induce a panic attack in me without actually trying to kill me or seriously harm me. And even then I'm not sure if I will feel fear or an adrenaline rush, a bodily response to a threat. They are very different, and they feel very differently. Fear is something you can experience while literally nothing is happening to you, in meditation, on psychedelic trips or on your favorite drug Salvia. Fear is about the future, and actually, the vast majority of it is about a distant future, not an immediate threat in your surroundings. If someone actually tried to kill you, you would also experience something else than what you call "fear".

But if you're talking about physically manipulating a part of the brain, then it may be possible, sure.

35 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Because when they have surgery without anaesthetic, or are dying of cancers yet still happy, they acknowledge verbally that they feel the pain but don't associate with it...

Of course I feel pain. And I never say stupid things like "I don't associate with it". Pain is pain. Pain is unpleasant, otherwise it wouldn't be pain. I only never feel psychological pain, which is anger, fear, hatred, jealousy, envy, despair and alike. Only my mind is completely pain-free, the body cannot be.

35 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

So I'd be curious to see if the same would be true with artificially produced panic... With their body forced into a severe panic attack, screaming, writhing, etc, would they on a deeper level be residing in bliss as they do with pain and self immolation etc? I'd love to see the results of that.

I am not sure why they would scream or writhe. You are describing a reaction to physical pain or a physical threat, not a reaction to fear. I have experienced tremendous, extraordinary fear, it doesn't make you scream, it makes you curve in a ball and shake. If you scream and writhe on your Salvia trips, it's not because of fear, it's because you believe what you see. A direct stimulation of some brain region that generates fear (which is how I understand the crux of your mind experiment) will not produce hallucinations, it would just produce fear or a bodily response to a threat (adrenaline, elevated heart rate and breathing, tense muscles etc).

I have no idea what those hypothetical "sages" would say, sages say a lot of silly things. If I felt fear, I'd say that I feel fear, what's the point to lie or speak about bliss? I don't experience bliss either, bliss is actually not the destination, all bliss is temporary because it's a relative experience. Enlightenment is not bliss, it's peace. And meditation is just rest. If you can't rest for a few hours without experiencing boredom, restlessness, intrusive thoughts or without having spiritual experiences or energy fluctuating through your body, if you can't rest for a few hours without any discomfort whatsoever, you are not at peace.

It's very simple, really. Your mind goes into extremes right away, it's a natural tendency of the mind. But if you are warm, not hungry and comfortable, and yet there's some internal discomfort arising (of any nature) in a 3-hour meditation, you are not at peace. Get there first, then you'll speculate about how you will feel when a lion is trying to eat you. ? It's absurd to be speculating about extreme events when even simple rest is difficult for you.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Artem

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Yes. Infinity. An Infinity of ever new Awakenings possible. And each new moment, it is Infinity n+1. And it never stops. An Infinity of Infinities.

Infinity can never be fully known, since even God/Reality is exploring its Infinite Potential of an Infinity of Infinities. But the Infinite Absolute Reality that one is can fully be realized.

Infinite, which is different than Infinity. Infinite = Not finite. Not measurable in any possible way at all. Not defineable in any positive way, only via negativa. Infinity on the other side is a mathematical object, which comes in different versions/sizes (Cantors Set Theory). An Infinity of Infinities.

There are always new and never seen waves possible in the Ocean of Ones True Being. Forever. An Infinity of Infinities. Yet, the wetness of all waves can be realized (Infinite, "IN-finite", not finite, or totally empty, which is the same as infinite potential, since all dualities collapse "there")

Which means nothing less than becoming the Ocean/Reality, which ends the grasping for ever new waves, and the mistaken identity of being "a sepearate ship" sailing on the ocean. And the ocean can never be destroyed, can not not be there, and is infinite peace and in the depths always at rest, unmoved, silent.

So, its either being a separate boat, sailing for always new Awakenings (of which new ones are there forever, and ever, and ever, and ever. Always new, and many of them never seen before), or just some new interesting experiences, having fun & pain on the trip of exploring the surface of the Ocean and all its magnificent waves. Or at some point, having become tired of that, just dropping into the Infinite Ocean, being the Infinite Ocean.

That one has always been, but which sometimes seems to contain the little separate-self- illusion of being a little sailing ship moving on the truly infinite unfathomable depths of the Ocean.

Water by the River

Exactly, infinity. and compared to infinity, an ant is the same as a band of aliens. awakening is the breaking of limits, the expansion to infinity, realize that you are infinite, and all that that entails .and that's it. all the rest are apparent forms of infinity. what leo sees as something so special is nothing seen from the next level. that does not mean that it is not valuable, it just means that it is another experience, within infinite experiences. what is very irritating is that now that he has his new Ferrari F9999 he sais that all the rest of us humans are a little piece of shit with our pathetic  porche 911 and he doesn't deign to speak to us other than to turn his nose up to the clouds and send his servants to expelled us, poor rats,  from his mansion, if possible with a final kick. 

an integral guy, full of love for himself and reality, noble character and true, maybe he would act differently. Anyway, a tour in his alien megabrain would be interesting

Edited July 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

ow that you have his new Ferrari F9999 he sais that all the rest of us humans are a little piece of shit with our pathetic  porche 911 and he doesn't deign to speak to us other than to turn his nose up to the clouds and send his servants to expelled us, poor rats,  from his mansion, if possible with a final kick. 

Oh well, if I can keep my little Porsche 911, he can keep his Ferrari.  

Not too far away from the place I live is the Porsche Museum. Lovely cars, but what if Porsche would have stopped developing new models after the original 911 was designed? 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911_(1963)

The unchanging, eternal, infinite and one without a second 911?

Lovely, blissful and timeless design for sure, but probably a bit of challenge for the Marketing department placing it against the latest Ferrari F8, or even worse, against the latest Ferrari F(n+1), and shooting n towards Alien Infinity.

Although I don't believe its purely a marketing gig, the ever new Awakenings sorry  AWAKENINGS come handy for sure.

So, as always, Caveat Emptor. 

Water by the River

[CARDOZZO]

Spirituality feels like a cheat code for me.

I don't know if it's good or not to AWAKE in the game when you're young.

Spirituality feels like a burden sometimes, maybe I need to take myself less serious and enjoy/explore reality more deeply.

I'll integrate Spirituality to mundane life and I think that's our job here because we live in the game.

As Ralston says, don't make the universal (Truth) the destroyer of the specific (Mundane Life).

 

 

[Trayambakam]

Here is an extract from Ram Das when he met Ramana Maharshi:

''He looked at me and extended his hand. So I put into his hand what’s called a “White Lightning.” This is an LSD pill and this one was from a special batch that had been made specially for me for traveling. And each pill was 305 micrograms, and very pure. Very good acid. Usually you start a man over 60, maybe with 50 to 75 micrograms, very gently, so you won’t upset him. 300 of pure acid is a very solid dose.

He looks at the pill and extends his hand further. So I put a second pill— that’s 610 micrograms—then a third pill—that’s 915 micrograms—into his palm.

That is sizeable for a first dose for anyone!

“Ah-cha.” And he swallows them! I see them go down. There’s no doubt. And that little scientist in me says, “This is going to be very interesting!”

All day long I’m there, and every now and then he twinkles at me and nothing—nothing happens! That was his answer to my question. Now you have the data I have.''

[gettoefl]

i welcome you and i bless you @Artem thanks for sharing so beautifully. hope to see you around here plenty more

[Butters]

@Leo Gura so would you recommend making tantra your path? 

[OldManCorcoran]

3 hours ago, Artem said:

Of course I wasn't.

No. The lack of "identification with the body mind" is not enlightenment, it's the very beginning of the spiritual path. It is actually a delusion. I've had a period like this, of course, but it wasn't enlightenment, not yet. Also, I would not want to endure pain just to prove my enlightenment to myself, I'm not an idiot, I have nothing to prove, so of course I'd take anesthesia if I had to have a surgery.

I can't help but notice that you're pretty bad at this. You think you're insightful, don't you?

No. I am not "spiritually developed", in fact, I am not spiritual at all. And insights are not memory, if you "remember" an insight, you don't have it. Insights are obvious truths which have always been true and are obviously true 24/7. You don't really know what you're talking about, because you haven't made any serious, lasting insights yet, you've had experiences and you carry memory about them. This has nothing to do with enlightenment. Not only Salvia will work this way for you ("erasing" your "memory" of your "spiritual progress"), but any psychedelic in a large enough dosage will also work the same way for you.

You cannot induce a panic attack in me without actually trying to kill me or seriously harm me. And even then I'm not sure if I will feel fear or an adrenaline rush, a bodily response to a threat. They are very different, and they feel very differently. Fear is something you can experience while literally nothing is happening to you, in meditation, on psychedelic trips or on your favorite drug Salvia. Fear is about the future, and actually, the vast majority of it is about a distant future, not an immediate threat in your surroundings. If someone actually tried to kill you, you would also experience something else than what you call "fear".

But if you're talking about physically manipulating a part of the brain, then it may be possible, sure.

Of course I feel pain. And I never say stupid things like "I don't associate with it". Pain is pain. Pain is unpleasant, otherwise it wouldn't be pain. I only never feel psychological pain, which is anger, fear, hatred, jealousy, envy, despair and alike. Only my mind is completely pain-free, the body cannot be.

I am not sure why they would scream or writhe. You are describing a reaction to physical pain or a physical threat, not a reaction to fear. I have experienced tremendous, extraordinary fear, it doesn't make you scream, it makes you curve in a ball and shake. If you scream and writhe on your Salvia trips, it's not because of fear, it's because you believe what you see. A direct stimulation of some brain region that generates fear (which is how I understand the crux of your mind experiment) will not produce hallucinations, it would just produce fear or a bodily response to a threat (adrenaline, elevated heart rate and breathing, tense muscles etc).

I have no idea what those hypothetical "sages" would say, sages say a lot of silly things. If I felt fear, I'd say that I feel fear, what's the point to lie or speak about bliss? I don't experience bliss either, bliss is actually not the destination, all bliss is temporary because it's a relative experience. Enlightenment is not bliss, it's peace. And meditation is just rest. If you can't rest for a few hours without experiencing boredom, restlessness, intrusive thoughts or without having spiritual experiences or energy fluctuating through your body, if you can't rest for a few hours without any discomfort whatsoever, you are not at peace.

It's very simple, really. Your mind goes into extremes right away, it's a natural tendency of the mind. But if you are warm, not hungry and comfortable, and yet there's some internal discomfort arising (of any nature) in a 3-hour meditation, you are not at peace. Get there first, then you'll speculate about how you will feel when a lion is trying to eat you. ? It's absurd to be speculating about extreme events when even simple rest is difficult for you.

If every memory of your existence past age 10 was wiped, you would be back precisely as you were at age 10 (exactly the same)... And you would feel "anger, fear, hatred, jealousy, envy, despair and alike" just as you did at age 10.

If you're immune just go eat a bunch of Datura seed pods and you will quickly see what happens...

[itsadistraction]

No body is awake but Leo, but don't forget you are Leo. This is the reason. 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Artem said:

I can take 1,200ug of LSD and remain perfectly conversational, walk and talk in a normal manner, and my awakening is completely ordinary to me. I will see no hallucinations, have no or very little insight, experience no fear, and even bodily I will feel pretty much the same. There might be some slight discomfort in the beginning, but not much, I will feel quite ordinary the whole time and in 2-3 hours or so the only side effect I will have is slightly dilated pupils. I cannot detect light and medium doses of 5-MeO-DMT at all, all I feel is the taste of it, and a heavy dose is a relaxation experience for me which lasts 2-3 minutes or so. It's the same thing with N,N-DMT - I barely experience anything, even on a relatively high dose, and the "trip", if we could even call it that, only lasts 2-3 minutes.

All this means is that you have insanely high tolerance and psychdelics do not work with your genetics and metabolism. This does NOT mean that you are somehow more conscious than psychdelics.

[Girzo]

@Artem you are bullshiting hard. Find some friends in a medical field, purify DMT a few times through recrystallization and ask for an injection by someone qualified. It will knock you out, no fucking way you are immune to that.

It is possible you have some rare mutation, it’s an interesting area to research.

But if I am sure of one thing it is that there’s a dose and route of administration that will conquer anyone’s idea of enlightenment.

You would probably need to be ill, maybe seriously, for psychedelics not to work on you, that’s how crucial serotonin system is in evolution.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Girzo

[Leo Gura]

I have a friend who has such a unique metabolism that DMT makes him less conscious, not more.

YOU CANNOT ASSUME THAT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME METABOLISM. Remove that idea from your mind.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Girzo]

I am aware people are different. That’s why I recommend extreme solutions for extreme folks.

I say he is bullshitting if he thinks all other substances work in a similar manner. Also his advice and experiences of enlightenment are not generalizable to other people who have mediocre genetics, if he is indeed special.

[Tech36363]

@Leo Gura all these description of alien consciousness... Leo I can't wait till you stand in front of camera and make a video on it

[Breakingthewall]

@Artem  

very interesting, I would like to know more about your spiritual journey 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

All this means is that you have insanely high tolerance and psychdelics do not work with your genetics and metabolism. This does NOT mean that you are somehow more conscious than psychdelics.

he doesn't say that. He says that they worked on him when he had an ego, and now that he doesn't, they no longer affect him. nothing genetic 

although he has also said that now a little thc hits him like a full lsd trip. ??

Edited July 13, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[112233]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, it's hard to explain.

What is the consciousness of a rat?

What is the consciousness of a human?

What is the consciousness of an advanced alien species that has a brain 20x the size of a human?

What kind of mind would make the human mind seem as crude as a chimpanzee seems to us?

Well, my own mind has accessed that level. So I know what it's like. But I cannot explain it to you any more than you can explain to a chimpanzee what it's like to do trigonometry.

@Leo Gura How about you stop trying to explain it and instead delineate the specific protocols used to access such a level? The drug, the dosage, the route of administration, a word on harm reduction, etc.? I understand these variables will vary widely depending on the individual. Simply sharing what you have been doing yourself would be of great use to the community.

[Bazooka Jesus]

11 hours ago, Water by the River said:

There are always new and never seen waves possible in the Ocean of Ones True Being. Forever. An Infinity of Infinities. Yet, the wetness of all waves can be realized

That is a great way to put it. Chapeau!