Questions about transexuality/LGBT. General and personal

[BojackHorseman]

First : I totally support whatever decision whoever makes. I really do not care and encourage people to be and act however they want.

But, I'm quite ignorant of LGBT in general (born in an older generation).

I have a few questions maybe some people can answer here.

Please, please don't take the first one badly but :

- does transexuality come from a scientific reason/malfunction in what is supposed to be a man? (there's variations in femininity and masculinity in everyone, but I also still believe that most men and women have specific attributes and way of seeing things/acting in general)
Like, is there any difference in the brain/genes, for people who feel like they're not the gender they're born with? (I feel like it can come from various factors like education, life experience, etc, and maybe this is not one of them, but still, wondering)

- I feel like wearing feminine clothing sometimes. I'm not very masculine in my attitude in the traditional sense (see here, I suspect it might be my overprotective mother's doing but I'm not quite sure), but I still do look masculine, with a big beard (I look good with it and 80% more ugly without so shaving is not an option), also now getting older and balding and skinnyfat (currently trying to fix that and getting more exercise), and I can't imagine that it would ever look good on me.

Actually, it's not even me, but when looking at 99 % of bearded people with dresses or skirts, it does immediately look off to me.

Yet I still really feel like I want to wear feminine clothing and act feminine sometimes.

Why do I seem to have this imediate reaction when I see results, yet still want to do it?

Sorry, all of this is a bit confused. But if anyone's got thoughts.

Edit : adding a question :  what does it mean to act feminine ? I want to act feminine but Iknow I don't want to be a woman. Does that mean that the whole picture of woman we have is nurture? I'm pretty sure some female traits are nature tho. But what about feminie gesture, clothes ?

I'm quite lost here

Edited June 13, 2023 by BojackHorseman

[blackchair]

i didnt read your post, from first hand, I'm gay, and transgender people have need to cut off their penis, that agony ALONE with that is enough to respect them and leave them be as they are.

[BojackHorseman]

23 minutes ago, blackchair said:

i didnt read your post, from first hand, I'm gay, and transgender people have need to cut off their penis, that agony ALONE with that is enough to respect them and leave them be as they are.

I don't get it

Of course they need respect?

Also I don't get the point in posting if you didn't read? But thanks anyway

[thepixelmonk]

27 minutes ago, blackchair said:

i didnt read your post, from first hand, I'm gay, and transgender people have need to cut off their penis, that agony ALONE with that is enough to respect them and leave them be as they are.

lol the guy who calls himself stage coral doesn't even have the patience to read the very post he's responding to. this forum is amazing.

Edited June 14, 2023 by thepixelmonk

[Godhead]

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

- does transexuality come from a scientific reason/malfunction in what is supposed to be a man?

Transsexualism is not considered a mental illness.

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

Like, is there any difference in the brain/genes, for people who feel like they're not the gender they're born with?

There has been a study that examined twins. If one of the twins was trans, the likelihood that the other twin was trans is 20%, indicating to researchers that there is a genetic component. 

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

I feel like wearing feminine clothing sometimes.

Ok? Do it, who gives a fuck. Feminine clothing like "having the cloth separate between your legs" or "it being one piece of cloth going around your legs". You do realize how arbitrary this distinction is? There is nothing masculine or feminine about that.

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

when looking at 99 % of bearded people with dresses or skirts, it does immediately look off to me.

That's a social convention you are accustomed to. There is no inherent truth in your reaction.

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

Yet I still really feel like I want to wear feminine clothing and act feminine sometimes.

act feminine sometimes then, who gives a fuck.

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

Why do I seem to have this imediate reaction when I see results, yet still want to do it?

Societal indoctrination and fear of rejection from your peers.

22 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

what does it mean to act feminine ?

It's a social construct and can mean lots of things. We generally associate qualities like nurturing love, softness, openness, caring about people, and similar qualities to it. The more you examine it, the more those boundaries fall apart.

What does it mean to you? How do you want to act? Forget about wanting to be a man or a women. Just act the way you want to act. 

[Yimpa]

Learn to appreciate some weird ass looking shit. It’s beautiful!

From Wikipedia:

“The naked mole-rat exhibits a highly unusual set of physiological and behavioral traits that allow it to thrive in a harsh underground environment; most notably its being the only mammalian thermoconformer with an almost entirely ectothermic (cold-blooded) form of body temperature regulation, as well as exhibiting a complex social structure split between reproductive and non-reproductive castes, making it and the closely related Damaraland mole-rat(Fukomys damarensis) the only widely recognized examples of eusociality (the highest classification of sociality) in mammals. The naked mole-rat lacks pain sensitivity in its skin, and has very low metabolic and respiratory rates. It is also remarkable for its longevity and its resistance to cancer and oxygen deprivation.”

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Yimpa

[Epikur]

I thought this is interesting:
 

 

[BojackHorseman]

On 14/06/2023 at 11:57 PM, Godhead said:

Transsexualism is not considered a mental illness.

Of course I didn't mean it in a bad way.

But more as in if there is a norm for male or female, which well, is the case (not saying it's good or should erase everytghing around it, just that it exists), we can consider that certain biological aspects are divergents in trans people. I don't know ANYTHING about science, but like "they have less of this or more of this in their body" or "their brain is wired in a different way than the average stereotypical male"

 

Quote

Ok? Do it, who gives a fuck.

Funny thing is, that the right answer to anything. It actually is. But for people who like to think about things a little bit too much maybe, it's not enough.

In the end you have the right idea, but in practice there are things like fashion, physical appearance, and other sets of things we find appealing.

Now this is separate from how I feel, and maybe this one should come before the other. So...yeah, maybe I should just avoid questionning (I think it's also a way of slowing down the thoughts of having to show myself in public like that, which I feel like would definitely not be a good thing and even dangerous, even if it's very sad to think about it. I'd feel at ease with my wife and friends, but clearly not with everyone else)

 

Quote

That's a social convention you are accustomed to. There is no inherent truth in your reaction.

Just want to point again the visual harmony/fashion, etc...I think both this and what you say is true. Like, I can like wearing something, but it can just look bad on me. Everything does not need to look good. We need to respect everything but that doesn't mean it looks great from a purely visual standpoint. That being said I love very off looking or sounding movies or music, so I don't think the fact that I have this sort of epidermic reaction to bearded men in dresses is a sign of being close-minded. So yeah, still a bit confused.

 

Quote

It's a social construct and can mean lots of things. We generally associate qualities like nurturing love, softness, openness, caring about people, and similar qualities to it.

It is a social construct but also not? I mean, the avergae male and female are more "made for" some things, right ? Of course it's hard to say without living in a society where nobody is influenced, but clearly the biological differences are enough to know the gender we're born with will affect us in most cases ?

I might be totaly wrong by the way. Just my current ideas about all of this.

Also anyone knows if it has been proven that male and female brains are literally different ?

 

On 15/06/2023 at 0:09 PM, Yimpa said:

Learn to appreciate some weird ass looking shit. It’s beautiful!

”

 

Now this is a very interesting though and I'd really have to work on this.

But at the same time, even if I believe this can be beneficial, I also know that it's not everything there is. I think personal taste is very important too.

Edited June 16, 2023 by BojackHorseman

[Yimpa]

7 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

Now this is a very interesting though and I'd really have to work on this.

But at the same time, even if I believe this can be beneficial, I also know that it's not everything there is. I think personal taste is very important too.

Yes, when you work on opening your mind your personal taste will naturally expand. 

[Godhead]

9 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

Just want to point again the visual harmony/fashion, etc...I think both this and what you say is true. Like, I can like wearing something, but it can just look bad on me. Everything does not need to look good. We need to respect everything but that doesn't mean it looks great from a purely visual standpoint.

What is considered "fashionable" is largely influenced by social conventions and is always shifting. The entire fashion industry revolves around this concept.

Big brands pay significant sums to celebrities in order to have them wear their clothing. As a result, the average person associates these clothes with the positive attributes of famous individuals. Consequently, more and more average people begin to wear those clothes, leading to the creation of a connection between the clothes and averageness. The clothes thus become "unfashionable".

When you perceive a man wearing a dress as strange, it is because, within our society, it deviates from societal norms. Several decades ago, it was deemed unusual for women to wear pants. Today, no one cares.

9 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

It is a social construct but also not?

Femininity, the term/idea, is a social construct. It's an idea to which we attribute a variety of real values and behavior patterns. These attributes and behavior patterns can change over time, as they had before. Obviously, the term corresponds with reality to some degree, as feminine attributes are often observed in females. This does not however exclude them from existing in males. 

 

9 hours ago, BojackHorseman said:

Also anyone knows if it has been proven that male and female brains are literally different?

They are more the same than different. There are some differences where one area tends to be slightly larger in one sex than the other, but those differences are rather small. 

What can usually be observed are different kinds of behaviors in men and women. Of course, it is not easy to clearly distinguish between nature and nurture, but generally, men care more about things while women usually care more about people. There are many differences one can observe in large sample groups. However, there are also numerous outliers. For example, there are men who tend to have a brain structure more similar to the average female brain, and similarly, there are many men who are more empathic and care about people a lot.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Godhead

[Hatfort]

I'd say in human societies there's a consensus for what's considered a man and a woman, that's common in all cultures. In other words, a social construct.

Does this have a relation with what we know as the biological sex of men and women? Undoubtfully yes, most cis men fall into the men construct and most cis women in the women one.

Are there biological men and women that recognize themselves as the opposite sex and prefer to present themselves as that in society? Yes, those are what we know as trans people and in some cultures as the two spirited or things like that.

Does this mean that every person that connects in one way or another with what is known from the opposite sex is trans? Not at all, a lot of people do connect with the opposite sex's social constructs but do not necessarily feel and present themselves as the opposite sex. Those are still cis people then, no matter how feminine or masculine.

These things don't work like exact mathematics, we are in the psychology and sociology fields here, so the metrics are different and valid in different ways.

[Lila9]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:09 PM, Yimpa said:

Learn to appreciate some weird ass looking shit. It’s beautiful!

 

Cute.

[mrPixel]

I'm currently living in a city with a small(ish) trans population but am moving to a city with a large trans population. As such, I've taken an interest in topic. The one curiosity I have is the relationship between self-acceptance (or lack thereof) and transgenderism. How can you love yourself and want to make changes such drastic changes to your body? I realize that not all trans people transition but this is something I have been thinking about lately.

[D2sage]

This movement has screwed up many kids as well.

You have kids in UK that identifies as animals.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12213579/How-schools-allowing-kids-identify-cats-horses-dinosaurs.htm

Edited June 27, 2023 by D2sage

[Adrian colby]

On 14/06/2023 at 0:22 AM, BojackHorseman said:

First : I totally support whatever decision whoever makes. I really do not care and encourage people to be and act however they want.

But, I'm quite ignorant of LGBT in general (born in an older generation).

I have a few questions maybe some people can answer here.

Please, please don't take the first one badly but :

- does transexuality come from a scientific reason/malfunction in what is supposed to be a man? (there's variations in femininity and masculinity in everyone, but I also still believe that most men and women have specific attributes and way of seeing things/acting in general)
Like, is there any difference in the brain/genes, for people who feel like they're not the gender they're born with? (I feel like it can come from various factors like education, life experience, etc, and maybe this is not one of them, but still, wondering)

- I feel like wearing feminine clothing sometimes. I'm not very masculine in my attitude in the traditional sense (see here, I suspect it might be my overprotective mother's doing but I'm not quite sure), but I still do look masculine, with a big beard (I look good with it and 80% more ugly without so shaving is not an option), also now getting older and balding and skinnyfat (currently trying to fix that and getting more exercise), and I can't imagine that it would ever look good on me.

Actually, it's not even me, but when looking at 99 % of bearded people with dresses or skirts, it does immediately look off to me.

Yet I still really feel like I want to wear feminine clothing and act feminine sometimes.

Why do I seem to have this imediate reaction when I see results, yet still want to do it?

Sorry, all of this is a bit confused. But if anyone's got thoughts.

Edit : adding a question :  what does it mean to act feminine ? I want to act feminine but Iknow I don't want to be a woman. Does that mean that the whole picture of woman we have is nurture? I'm pretty sure some female traits are nature tho. But what about feminie gesture, clothes ?

I'm quite lost here

I started a thread to answer questions about the trans issue( above). Long story short, yes there is a biological factor to the cause of genuine transgenderism ( genetic/ neurological currently known, maybe more discovered in the future) but there is also an issue with non genuine transgenderism being caused by a complex of the maturation process and cultural conditioning. Autism also has a very strong link to the manifestation of opposing identity through obsession of another person or identification with them or the idea of what they are. 

[OldManCorcoran]

It's completely made up. Non-scientific AND non-spiritual. Pure fiction from a delusional mind... It's not scientific because scientific is material stuff. Yet it's also not spiritual because spirituality is seeing through the ego whereas any sort of "identity" including "gender identity" is an active push even FURTHER into ego and sense of individuality.

As such it is probably the BIGGEST delusion in existence currently... For ex: believing the Earth is flat is not necessarily anti-spiritual because it has nothing to do with strengthening/leaning into ego. Yet identity is inherently anti-spiritual. So it's a delusion on two sides of the aisle at once.

[OldManCorcoran]

1 hour ago, Adrian colby said:

Autism also has a very strong link to the manifestation of opposing identity through obsession of another person or identification with them or the idea of what they are. 

Interesting, can you expand? I know autism is linked, but have never heard anyone mention the other part you brought up here.

[Adrian colby]

37 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Interesting, can you expand? I know autism is linked, but have never heard anyone mention the other part you brought up here.

It’s important to distinguish the different phases you go through on an awakening/ spiritual journey( whatever term you wish to use for ultimate self discovery). When you’re deconstructing everything in reality down to the very core of what you are (god/awareness), you realise ‘the dream’ and are very quick to dismiss it. Once you become familiar with everything being imagined into existence, you then have the faculty to explore the dream and discern what is biased, misinformed or complete delusion. It’s the same discernment used to deconstruct your reality, whether something is a belief or a direct experience, bias or empirical observation. Everything in the dream is awareness exploring itself in infinately diverse ways. Other than itself in a state of wholeness, ‘realities’ are ways that it expresses itself( reality meaning to relate to or in relationship with/ form made distinct from other form)

science is the method we use to explore our reality through empirical observation while we are in this state. ( consciousness expanding its knowing by creating stories and narratives about the different objects, situations and beings)

I’m aware of the frustration with science at the moment as it has descended into a financially incentivised authority that has started to resemble religious organisation. But that is why it is important to be aware of what is derived from raw data and what is being interpreted according to someone’s bias to support an already preconceived belief. One has to drop all their knowledge and assumptions to see what the research is actually presenting to them. It takes honesty, integrity and a genuine curiosity to do it properly. 

I’ve been through my nihilism phase and no longer dismiss my experience here rather I am exited to explore it.

I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria in my teens decades ago before any of this nonsense started up in the media. I had no knowledge of the condition, didn’t know anyone else with it and it certainly wasn’t being discussed openly. I wasn’t influenced by anything so I’m one of the genuine cases.

before I was diagnosed It had been discovered I had congenital gonadal dysgenesis. Internal organs didn’t develop fully. However this did not explain the years of insistent opposed gender identity. Because it had gone on for so long I was transferred to a specialist team in Europe. I went through full treatment and also participated in research at the same university hospital where I had it confirmed that part of my genetics ( mutation of cytochromeP17 that is only found in males) was also a part of my genetic make up. As I was not satisfied with just being told I was transgender, I went on a mission to find out why. While I only have direct confirmation of those genes, I speculate from other studies that my neurology is also structurally male which would explain the way in which I interact, discern and identify myself ( human self or character) in “relation” to other people. It’s not that a person is separated and egotistically identifies themselves ( if they were alone on an island it probably wouldn’t be an issue) our neurology is geared towards how we relate to others while inside a ‘reality’.

the study regarding neurology was discovered by a brain scientist who was conducting research into Alzheimer’s. This was done postumously. He noticed that the brains of trans patients had a neucleus count the same as that of the sex they claimed to be. He went on to conduct a proper study. So it’s suggested that there maybe a link between gender based identity and a part of the brain called the bed neucleus of the straii terminalis which is in the hypothalamus.

genuine transgenderism has a biological basis where the person is neither 100% male or female but they contain attributes of sexual biology that belong to both. As a human is a predominantly psychosocial bring, their neurology will override their genitalia when it comes to determining what side of the sexual spectrum they lie on.

there have been dozens of other studies into neurological response to stimulus according to gender but with all honesty. It is so wide and varied that you could use it to diagnose a person… you could only use it to support what a person already claims to be. These conditions are rare. Because interventions happened with genital abnormalities years ago and it turned out a substantial amount of those children identified as the opposite, it was deemed unethical to intervene until the person identified themselves. In light of those findings, in my country, it was deemed that genitalia could not be used to definitively tell a persons whole biological sex so process was put in place to legally change the sex on the birth certificate in the event that a person identified as such. I was part of the drafting process and argued that it should be purely medical but the human rights lot got their way and said no one had the right to tell another person who they are. To an extent I agree but something has gone wrong and that is not what we are seeing today.

what started with good intentions was trying to put an education program in schools to normalise the condition so that people with it could safely integrate into society by the time the next generation came along. Middle aged men transitioning would be a thing of the past simply because help and treatment are more available now and this is something that manifests itself in late childhood to early teens ( sometimes earlier) and people don’t need to hide themselves anymore. However because the education program was aimed at junior school children whom sex or identity is not yet an issue, these kids are going home with an expectation that this is normal and will somehow happen to them. The parents are pressured by a culture of ‘support’ and get called transphobes if they question what is going on.

there are plenty of kids who have transitioned and we’re not genuine cases and have unnecessarily destroyed their biology all because they were exposed to cultural conditioning at much too early an age.

religious and spiritual groups have jumped on this to try and grab power back from the left but at the same time they are trying to dismiss and stamp out even the genuine cases because they don’t know they exist or they refuse to acknowledge the research. 
the backlash from the liberal side is trying to protect the genuine cases but dismiss the existence of the ‘conditioned’ people because it ‘hurts’ the agenda. 
 

I find myself in a unique position by both having been born with a gender disorder and having seen behind ‘the dream’ and part of spiritual communities. Both myself ( a genuine case) and the kids who have made a mistake, find ourselves in the middle of a fight between two sides who refuse to listen and only care about pushing their beliefs. This means that the safety of those kids and mine is compromised.

 

we do need to pay homage to our underlying biology and understand that when it comes to sex, there is a spectrum.( a man cannot be defined by a penis, he is much more than that both biologically, psychologically and socially. If he were to have an accident, cancer or birth deformity, other attributes of his biology would still be active in the identity he expresses as a ‘man’) We have culturally constructed a rigid binary that we are all essentially forced to identify with but there are people out there whose biology doesn’t fit into those roles. We need to be mindful of this while we are adapting to the change in  the social constructs that are appearing everywhere now including when we deconstruct them. We need to be very aware that we are currently conditioning our next generation with our own cultural beliefs.

I don’t identify as transgender. I’m fully aware my biology is a mix of both sexes but I interact and identify as a man. This is for the purposes of integrating into society and in my relationship with my wife. My wife sees no difference between me and any other man she’s been with. No one knows about my condition except immediate family, not even my inlaws. If my neurology reflects male then I don’t see it as appropriate to go around identifying as trans and demanding respect for it. My condition is a mutation of sex, it’s not an illness or psychological fault. It expresses as male and doesn’t cause a problem nor is it even existent until I say something to someone. What I would get back is the sudden change of behavior of the other person based on their pre conceived ideas or beliefs when prior to the moment I said something… they were experiencing the reality of it ( non existent, not a problem).

of course it acted as a catalyst for my awakening to show me that clearly identity was an attachment so I’m no longer angry bothered or triggered by the issue. I am infinite imagination experiencing itself temporarily in the form, persona, character role of “Adrian”. Underneath it all I have no name or form. 
 

I’ve gone into more depth on the thread I posted above if you want to know more. I have an unhealthy habit of writing long responses. 

[OldManCorcoran]

@Adrian colby Certainly it would be found in the brain. If we aren't discussing spiritual things, then the mind as people know it literally is the brain. On any other board I would state that bluntly, obviously here it's a bit different as people have a very developed idea of what the mind actually is. But you can't make that inversion with random people.

In many years from now as tech advances, any internal condition should be located in the physical brain. Including depression, anxiety, OCD, etc, with pinpoint accuracy. As I see it, psychology is a quack profession and when that age arrives, will be seen exactly as we today see medieval leech practices and trepanning or w.e. it was called. In the future there will be medication and surgeries for mental illnesses or anomalies.

This would be critical for treatment because a kid who comes in and says "I'm really a boy!" you could examine their brain and say "no you're just being socially influenced" or "ah yes, I see you have gene CR-82848, I will prescribe you a course of hormone blockers" etc... Or perhaps more desirably if tech makes it possible "here's some medicine that will make you align with your sex". As that wouldn't require numerous surgeries and permanent wounds etc.

I am still interested to hear that element of the autism link though maybe it's in the other thread.

I feel the same as you on the matter by the way.

[Adrian colby]

6 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

@Adrian colby Certainly it would be found in the brain. If we aren't discussing spiritual things, then the mind as people know it literally is the brain. On any other board I would state that bluntly, obviously here it's a bit different as people have a very developed idea of what the mind actually is. But you can't make that inversion with random people.

In many years from now as tech advances, any internal condition should be located in the physical brain. Including depression, anxiety, OCD, etc, with pinpoint accuracy. As I see it, psychology is a quack profession and when that age arrives, will be seen exactly as we today see medieval leech practices and trepanning or w.e. it was called. In the future there will be medication and surgeries for mental illnesses or anomalies.

This would be critical for treatment because a kid who comes in and says "I'm really a boy!" you could examine their brain and say "no you're just being socially influenced" or "ah yes, I see you have gene CR-82848, I will prescribe you a course of hormone blockers" etc... Or perhaps more desirably if tech makes it possible "here's some medicine that will make you align with your sex". As that wouldn't require numerous surgeries and permanent wounds etc.

I am still interested to hear that element of the autism link though maybe it's in the other thread.

I feel the same as you on the matter by the way.

Yes it’s difficult to have the conversation and I have to change my language to switch back and forth between relative and absolute depending on who I’m talking to. Even in spiritual community it has to be brought back down to earth cause a lot of people are still caught up in the visible manifestations of the mind or rather, appearance of things. The origin of the trans stuff isn’t known but like autism there’s a suspicion about mothers exposure to stress or chemicals in the environment. The autism stuff is fairly new to me and I hadn’t come across it till recently. I’ll see if I can find one of the talks about it and post it up here. I spent years questioning my condition and digging through research for answers that correlated with my lives experience but when I unintentionally dissolved my reality one evening, I stopped looking cause I was more interested digging into the workings of the godhead and how it creates reality. Once I had finished all my treatment, fought and achieved legal recognition, my problems just disappeared and I was able to marry my wife and get on living life. Unfortunately there are others still struggling and the issue is becoming more prominent and politicised so I’ve come back out of the woodwork to see if I can contribute to a solution. There was no way I could have done this several years ago as I was much too angry/triggered/offended. I understand how those “triggered” people feel but I also now know the point that they’re missing

 

this is a talk by an autism society where you might be able to track down papers or specific specialists in this area. The comments section is even more interesting as allot of them commenting are on the spectrum and transgender. They claim the gender treatment reduced or stopped the autistic behaviors.