Is Peter Ralston Wrong About Enlightenment Not Being A State?

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Enlightenment has been defined as realizing/deeply understanding/awakening to that the separate self doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. It just seems to exist, like a clouding over of the sun, an illusion, seeing the rope as a snake for example.

 

that is a negative definition of enlightenment which is true, but there is also a positive definition, which is realizing what you really are, for the first time in your human life. In my opinion it is extremely difficult for this to happen without psychedelics, and there is a lot of discussion here and people will soon come to say that this is a hoax, etc.

enlightenment is to become infinite, without a trace of any limit, and to recognize yourself as the eternal that always is, what you forgot but it is totally obvious and always was and will be, and after that to realize that the relative in what you live is really the absolute, exactly, without the slightest difference. So I think that it can be said that they are states. as you have explained well, cloudy, limited, and unlimited state. But it's always you, the existence.

 

[Water by the River]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

that is a negative definition of enlightenment which is true, but there is also a positive definition, which is realizing what you really are, for the first time in your human life. In my opinion it is extremely difficult for this to happen without psychedelics, and there is a lot of discussion here and people will soon come to say that this is a hoax, etc.

enlightenment is to become infinite, without a trace of any limit, and to recognize yourself as the eternal that always is, what you forgot but it is totally obvious and always was and will be, and after that to realize that the relative in what you live is really the absolute, exactly, without the slightest difference. So I think that it can be said that they are states. as you have explained well, cloudy, limited, and unlimited state. But it's always you, the existence.

Beautiful post, agree on all of that.   

Enlightenment is

• both a state (Understanding/Realization and certain energetic nondual/mere groundless appearance state)
• but also a waking up/removing the clouds to the Reality/True Self/Enlightenment that is always here, that is Absolute Reality itself, and when called Buddha Nature the core of each sentient being, and knowing that to have always been the case.

Like with many pointers to the Absolute, the pointers highlight only one side of the coin, like Advaita True Self/Absolute Consciousness (positive definition), and Buddhist Madhyamaka Emptiness (negative definition). And in Absolute Reality, these paradoxes collapse, since they all point to the same Reality/"thing/referent". Absolute Reality contains the pointers. Once realized, there is no paradox or contradiction left, it makes fully sense and couldn't be any different. It doesn't stay paradoxical.

I also believe (but I can't proove it) there is a kind of "Endohuasca-System",

• that when one is
  • (1) proficient enough with the separate self arisings (like knowing them, even the most subtle ones, like a separate self feeling/sensation/localization/concept/... ), and
  • (2) is fast enough in spotting them/cutting them off (since they arise much much faster than normal thinking, like maybe 20-30 arisings of separate self sensations per second, while thinking "against" these arisings brings maybe maximum 1-3 thoughts elaborated per second, if at all).
    • that explains why you can't "think" your way to shutting off the separate self, thinking is just too slow. It has to be automized, Nonmeditation Yoga-style of the Mahamudra-System.
    • Spotting them when you know their nature as Emptiness/Consciousness/Suchness immedeately cuts them off, at least with some proficiency in the Skill of Reckognition of the Mahamudra-System (see Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown).
      • funny thing is: When one tries to do that, the emerging of thoughts frequency gets much faster. Like a protection-mechanism of the Illusion/Maya. When I learned to finally be fast enough and got faster than this increased speed of thought-emergence, and didn't get distracted or "captured" anymore by the high-speed-emergence-flow of thoughts, the following happened:
  • (1) and (2) trigger some kind of "Endohuasca-System" in the body, which removes the solidity of the visual field, makes it increasingly luminous/hologram/mere appearance/groundess floating in Infinite Nothingness, like Psychedelics do. And it also bring a lot of bliss.
    • https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/

That was at least my experience:

• first major parts of the separate self Gestalt Structure/emerging thoughts go,
• then the visual field/world becomes nondual/luminous/mere appearance hovering in Infinite Nothingness
• and with that as a basis, more and more subtle separate self elements/clouds go
• and all of that in a funny merry-go-around (meditation experience/state -> Realization/Understanding -> Deeper meditation experience/Luminosity/... -> Deeper Realization/Understanding of more subtle separate self element, ....) , like a positive feedback-loop, slowly burning away the clouds.
  • Which can sound maybe harsh or bad or unpleasant, but it is exactly the opposite. Somewhere along the path it was learned that these separate-self arisings are to a large part all the unpleasant stuff, suffering, dissatisfaction,... , and that evaporated as well.
  • And while resting in a very mindful, empty state, when the mind-stream starts getting nondual (and even before that), I learned that I can produce my own good emotions/states, like directly getting the bliss from within. That disabled then slowly all the separate self arisings that didn't feel well. So actually a lovely process, best thing that has ever happened to me. In the beginning, its difficult, but at some point it becomes quite pleasant and continues by itself. Pushing the rock over the mountain-pass, and then it rolls downhill without effort.

Please excuse the length of my musings.  

Selling Water by the River

[Moksha]

9 hours ago, Osaid said:

If enlightenment is always true, then calling it a state implies that it is possible for some sort of contrasting state which isn't true to exist, which might be why he insists it is not a state. If something is always true, calling it a state that has to be achieved or found somewhere else is somewhat redundant, because it implies you are in a state where truth does not exist, which cannot be the case if enlightenment and truth are absolute.

Absolute reality is unconditional awareness, beyond states and statelessness. Maybe Ralston defines enlightenment differently, but I see it as the process of the absolute realizing itself within its dream. Because it is a process, with an apparent beginning and ending, it cannot be intransient.

[Phil King]

@Osaid @Yimpa @Water by the River@Moksha  @Salvijus  Thankyou for your insights and explanations. That cleared things up a bit

[BlessedLion]

@Water by the River

Wow. Thanks for that explanation. You clearly know your shit well. 

 

This is pretty much exactly how my teacher explains it. Except regarding the psychedelics,but it sounds like Hawkins where as you get higher on the scale of consciousness, even an increase of .001% is massive and if you are low an increase of 5% is pretty small in terms of behavior and connection to God. 

 

My question; do you think there is a point where psychedelics are actually setting you back? Throwing you off momentum? Not helping?

 

Cheerz

[BlessedLion]

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

that is a negative definition of enlightenment which is true, but there is also a positive definition, which is realizing what you really are, for the first time in your human life. In my opinion it is extremely difficult for this to happen without psychedelics, and there is a lot of discussion here and people will soon come to say that this is a hoax, etc.

enlightenment is to become infinite, without a trace of any limit, and to recognize yourself as the eternal that always is, what you forgot but it is totally obvious and always was and will be, and after that to realize that the relative in what you live is really the absolute, exactly, without the slightest difference. So I think that it can be said that they are states. as you have explained well, cloudy, limited, and unlimited state. But it's always you, the existence.

 

But they aren't states it's just becoming more aware of what is already the case; IE; removing the clouds. It can't be a state 

[FlyingMan]

Leo has reified "states" of consciousness because it allows him to make psychedelics the king kong method, which in turn positions him as the top mostest AWAKE guru in the world.  He loves this, especially since deep down he knows he couldn't do it without them, and is insanely jealous of those that have.  So, to make himself feel better, he really really needs to be this top guru guy.  As long as you want to learn FROM him, he's your best friend.  But criticize him, or point out his self-deception, and you're the asshole.  I think it's pretty damn obvious though.

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

But they aren't states it's just becoming more aware of what is already the case; IE; removing the clouds. It can't be a state 

Depending of de definition of state.  for example could be said that be drunk is a state, be sober another state. But it also could be said that be sober isn't a state, is the real thing, and be drunk, or stone, or of mushrooms are states. 

[OldManCorcoran]

6 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

But they aren't states it's just becoming more aware of what is already the case; IE; removing the clouds. It can't be a state 

The absence of clouds could easily be seen as a state. A state of clouds being there, a state where they aren't.

[Salvijus]

27 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

The absence of clouds could easily be seen as a state. A state of clouds being there, a state where they aren't.

True. But it could be argued that the sky itself is not a state. Whether there are clouds or there are no clouds, sky is uneffected. There is no such thing as first stage sky then, second stage sky etc. It's always the same, primordial, never changes, perfect, absolute. So by definition it could be sayed it is not a state, because states are changful, and the sky is beyond every change.

Not very well articulated but still, you can get the point.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

But it could be argued that the sky itself is not a state.

Yes but it could be also argued if there is the sky, or just the direct experience of the sky. 

there is really nothing objective, and the only absolute is the experience that always is. To say that something is cloudy or clear really means to have one experience or the other. You could argue that the difference is that when it's clear there's no subject and object, and there are not limits, there's unity and infinity, but when it's cloudy there aren't either, it just seems so, so we're talking about states that you, the one who has the experience, who really doesn't have, but you are , experience.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

6 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

My question; do you think there is a point where psychedelics are actually setting you back? Throwing you off momentum? Not helping?

Psychedelics are awesome when done together with meditation.

I believe that

• efficient meditation systems (like for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown), explained in an efficient way,
• plus Psychedelics (but with coaching from somebody who has walked the path to the end and knows the traps) is the future.

Where there is potential, there are (as ususal) also risks and traps. Let's look at Wilbers perspective on the risks and downsides:

Main Points from Wilber:

• The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. 

• That somehow it just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it doesn't quite cause the transformation.

• It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David data will say that you know for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation permanent transformation it has to be basically in endogenous and not exogenous it has to be has your own. See my Endohuasca-Theory and Links to it above.

• The people that do use both and use  it as a sacrament I think an enormous  bit out of it.

 

My personal opinion:

• When you think that the meditation path to make it permanent is not doable for you (for whatever excuse, like genetics) , or seems to unpleasant, maybe you use an inefficient meditation system. Try the one a mentioned above (Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown). I get no roalties or kick-back-paymanents by the way, just love the method/system 
  • Agreed, most meditation system on the market have an abysmal "success" rate of Enlightened Ones. But there are some really good ones also.
    • And non of these efficient systems have used Psychedelics + good coaching on top. That is where I believe is the future.
• Exploring the Multiverse is all nice and important and a wonderful pioneering effort. But as soon as you draw your love/happiness out of the sublime beautiful experiences/understandings, you are playing the same samsaric game of every unenlightened sentient being chasing good emotions to avoid suffering, the usual merry-go-round-cycle. But on a very high level, with quite a show .
• When psychedelics boost the narcissm/grandiosity of the separate self, well: Best regards from Maya, she just loves you too much to let you go... 
• If you can be "gaslit" on any realization from psychedelics and need to put your foot down: Well, probably the realization of your True Identity (Reality itself) is a bit shaky, or a bit preliminary. The Real Thing can't be shaken. Because You are It, like in "never can not be It".
• And if you dragged home an alien from I don't know where, and feel like you have become the special-alien-of the day,  maybe check if you have received a very seductive love-letter from Maya herself, and consider ordering the Men in Black for the Alien, together with their Flashthing/Neuralyzer that can make you forget: https://meninblack.fandom.com/wiki/Neuralyzer
  • And maybe that Neuralyzer makes you full empty, makes you get rid of the last filters of the separate self, which are just
    • a very very empty, already nondual/mere appearance "feeling" of individuality, a vastly intelligent, potentially "alien" nondual nothing, understanding a lot of the mechanisms of God and the Universe,
    • but still a nothing with the last filter attached to it: Individuality-Arisings (in Wilbers wording, the Transparent Witness, see Religion of the Future), "seeing/looking at" a vast mere appearance Multiverse hovering in Nothingness. So not fully empty yet. And that is the "last few percentage clouds" blocking stable realization, or the sudden Full Enlightenment.
    • Because if the last filters/elements of the separate self go, you can sustain the realization/bliss sobre in daily life.... . Because, if you understood/got rid of all separate self filters IN the psychedelic state, why shouldn't you be able to keep that Realization in daily life? The world gets a shimmering lucid hologram like imagined appearance-illusion-show when you have engaged your Endohuasca-System, which is done with getting rid off these last separate-self elements, see my previous post. At least my experience, and that of countless others in the history of mankind. Why should exactly the Psychedelic-Aficionado not be able to do that? No Endohuasca-system? Well, the receptors in the body seem to be working just fine...  Or maybe a different Buddha-Nature? Sorry, just kidding... 
      • And if there is no Neuralyzer around, maybe try an efficient meditation system, get to the last stages of Nonmeditation-Yoga (spontaneous automized meditation without a doer still active)
• And after having used the Neuralyzer or an efficient meditation system, after having looked deeply into the Empty Abyss of your own True Nature/Nothingness, when you are really everything because you are really totally Nothingness (with no 5% clouds remaining), maybe then go hunt for the alien again. But this time, not for getting the love and sweetness of Understanding-experiences or whatever to break the cycle of suffering, but to express the bliss and love of your True Nature that you have then 24/7 going on from your own core.
  • And if one feels gaslit about what I have just written, see the point above: "If you can be "gaslit" on any realization from psychedelics and need to put your foot down: Well, probably the realization of your True Identity (Reality itself) is a bit shaky, or a bit preliminary. The Real Thing can't be shaken. Because You are It, like in never can not be It."

And if in doubt: Call these gentlemen, let them take care of the Aliens, look at the Neuralyzer/Flashthing, and get fully empty.

But still, the Psychedelic pioneers, facing the unknowns of the Multiverse, exploring Alien intelligences, some even catching an Alien beast or two and dragging them home, going alone boldly to where no one has gone before, facing dangers that nobody else faced before... If there is some material for the movies of the future looking back to our time, where if not there is the true hero's journey to be found...

I just hope that they get back from the trips, integrate their experience, get their mindstream awakened all the time, and live happily realized ever after, radiating the love of their own True Being, and maybe even getting the roalties from the upcoming movies of the Psychedelic Heros Journey based on their biography! Bon voyage! 

In the meantime, It’s for sure one of the most interesting shows on this planet to be seen. At least, it for sure has my attention! 

Respectfully Yours & mind the possibility of the Bear Manoeuvre in the signature-link below

Selling Water by the River

[Salvijus]

@Breakingthewall i think you're talking about two experiences or two states. 

one state is when in our perception everything is one

Another state is when in our perception we feel seperation and duality

In this context enlightenment is an experience or a state of perception.

When clouds of ego are veiling the awareness it feels like everything is fragmented. When clouds of ego are gone, all sense of separation is gone. 

21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but it could be also argued if there is the sky, or just the direct experience of the sky. 

there is really nothing objective

Yea, that's why it's called nothingness btw. Intangiable, incomprehensible, immesuarble, the womb of existence. Where all states come and go, even the change of perception is happening inside this awareness that undergoes no change.

Not sure where im going with this one even

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

35 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but you are , experience.

The point you make here is interesting. 

Nondual teachers would say, there's something beyond experience. Experience comes and goes and is not absolute. Like music, sounds come and go, but silence is absolute and has no levels. Without silence sounds could not exist, sounds are temporary, silence is eternal. Silence stands for our primordial awareness that has no quality our true nature.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

16 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The point you make here is interesting. 

Nondual teachers would say, there's something beyond experience. Experience comes and goes and is not absolute. Like music, sounds come and go, but silence is absolute and has no levels. Without silence sounds could not exist, sounds are temporary, silence is eternal. Silence stand for our primordial awareness that has no quality our true nature.

Then the next stage of nonduality would be to recognize that silence and sound are inherantly one. But still silence remains the absolute and sound remains the relative. We can have silence without the sounds, but we can't have sounds without the silence. Or we can have sky without the clouds but we can't have clouds without the sky. Nothingness is king, manifestaion is the queen.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

Nondual teachers would say, there's something beyond experience. Experience comes and goes and is not absolute. Like music, sounds come and go, but silence is absolute and has no levels

Yes but the silence is just another experience. The only thing with the silence is that it's easier to realize the infinity, the bottomless, the total potential, but it's also in the noise.  The non dual teachers, when they tell that there's something beyond the experience are creating a duality. where is that? hiding behind the scenes? The thing is much simpler I would say. look inside yourself, there is no bottom. Right now, you are, and you are the experience that happens. eternally in motion.  

the absolute is this, since only the absolute exists. the only problem is that because of the conceptual mind the absolute becomes confusing and unpleasant, but the conceptual mind is also the absolute. the conceptual mind must relax so that the experience is not an unpleasant madness, since it is not fun, and nothing more

Edited May 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Salvijus]

 

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the absolute is this, since only the absolute exists

Interesting. Allow me to challenge this view.

By definition absolute means that which never changes. So an open question becomes.

Do sounds change?  Yes, all the time.

Does silence ever change ? No

Does silence have degrees? No

Does silence have different forms? No

By definition only the silence is absolute, never changing, without any levels. It is our true nature, pure witness, primordial awareness. 

Out this nothingness/silence comes the sound/manifestaion. And manifestaion is not absolute it is relative. By definition no sound, no cloud, no phenomenal experience can be absolute (unless your definition of absolute is something else)

This would be my counter perspective to what you sayed that only the absolute exists. I think there's a flaw in logic there. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Salvijus said:

By definition absolute means that which never changes. So an open question becomes.

Id say that absolute means that which has no opposite, which has no "other", which has no exterior because it encompasses everything, that is, the infinite. infinity contains all possible changes, silence and noise. is in infinite change, because if it were stiff, it would mean that it's limited

[Salvijus]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Id say that absolute means that which has no opposite, which has no "other", which has no exterior because it encompasses everything, that is, the infinite. infinity contains all possible changes, silence and noise. is in infinite change, because if it were stiff, it would mean that it's limited

Okey i see what you did there. By that definition all experience of the present moment could be labeled as absolute

Let me rise another question then. If a sound can vanish, is it eternal?

And the second question, if sound is not eternal, how can it be absolute?  Because absolute means by your definition it has no opposite. So if sound can exist and then stop existing, can it be called absolute?

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Id say that absolute means that which has no opposite, which has no "other", which has no exterior because it encompasses everything, that is, the infinite. infinity contains all possible changes, silence and noise. is in infinite change, because if it were stiff, it would mean that it's limited

Infinite change is cool. But is there something that never changes? Perhaps the pure witness who witnesses all changes happening would be the answer?