Is Peter Ralston Wrong About Enlightenment Not Being A State?

[Yimpa]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

But is there something that never changes? 

People’s delusions and ignorance.

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

People’s delusions and ignorance.

I hope you're wrong ? 

[Salvijus]

@Breakingthewall if the only color that existed was blue, we would not know what is blue, we only know what is blue because we have different colors to contrast it against.

Similary we know what is changeful, because there's something inside us that is absolute and never changes. 

How's that? Sounds logical to me.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Infinite change is cool. But is there something that never changes? Perhaps the pure witness who witnesses all changes happening would be the answer? 

The thing by being infinite, change is the same as no change. The absolute void, due to its lack of limits, its infinity, manifests itself as the totality of all possible possibilities, and here we are. Apparently. 

[Yimpa]

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I hope you're wrong ? 

Ha! Of course I can be.

People’s delusions and ignorance do change. 

It’s still delusions and ignorance, though.

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The thing by being infinite, change is the same as no change. The absolute void, due to its lack of limits, its infinity, manifests itself as the totality of all possible possibilities, and here we are. Apparently. 

Is sound the same as the silence? I would agree that they are one but i would not agree that they are the same. 

It makes more sense to me by definition to call silence absolute never changing essence of the universe. And sound as a manifestation which is changeful and relative etc.. ultimately they are one, but not the same.

[Salvijus]

@Breakingthewall Silence can exist without the sound, sound cannot exist without the silence is also thought provoking statement that show they are not equal dimensions of existence. It shows that one is absolute and another is dependant on the other to exist 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

Observer can exist without the objects of observation. Objects of observation cannot exist without the observer.

Your true nature is absolute and eternal, your secondary nature is changeful and temporary. Your secondary nature is still part of you, but it's not your essencial nature. Because objects depend on the observer, observer doesn't depend on anything. IT IS ABSOLUTE!

I should put this as a quote beneath my posts ? 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Breakingthewall Silence can exist without the sound, sound cannot exist without the silence is also thought provoking statement that show they are not equal dimensions of existence. It shows that one is absolute and another is dependant on the other to exist 

imagine infinite sounds playing right now. We cannot imagine it, but being infinite, multiplied by infinite infinitely, would be absolute silence. and the same if you listen to absolute silence or realize absolute nothingness, it automatically opens up and manifests itself as the flow of infinite "things". the quality that you say must be immutable is the infinite quality, and to capture it you have to do 5 meo  in my opinion. infinity is god, it is total plenitude, total love, and at the same time total emptiness and zero. since this cannot be understood by a linear mind that dissects and defines, it is necessary to break that mind with 5meo

11 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Observer can exist without the objects of observation. Objects of observation cannot exist without the observer.

Your true nature is absolute and eternal, your secondary nature is changeful and temprary

I should put this as a quote beneath my posts ? 

Yes but there is not observer and objects, that's the thing, just the infinity experiencing itself, seeming that there is a subject and an object. If you observe yourself, where is the subject and the object? Are the same

Edited May 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but there is not observer and objects, that's the thing, just the infinity experiencing itself, seeming that there is a subject and an object. If you observe yourself, where is the subject and the object? Are the same

How so?

Here's a question to challange this. Are you observing the coffee table or is the coffee table observing you?

Clearly observer and the objects of observation are not the same, they are one i agree, but not the same.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

The Clap of the One Hand/Reality/True You is still there when the light-show of the visual field, and every other formless arising, is switched off. Then "It" is just Infinite Potential, Nothingness, initially unaware of itself.

Perception and Awareness (which is always "of" some appearance) comes when something appears. Before that, "It" is initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. Nothingness with a potential for awareness (of something).

In one of my last posts, I described Massaros (Conversations with a Sceptic) example of Infinite Vastness/Nothingness, and suddenly a water pistol is imagined: Before that, no awareness, no nothing. Just Infinite Potential/Nothingness. Initially unaware of itself.

So what is more fundamental? Switch "everything off" (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, Cessation), et voila.... But then it is not nothing, but Nothingness,

• since IT/You has the potential for sentience, and
• Infinite Potential, since "It/Reality" can be aware of something if something is imagined/manifested/duality appears. Infinite Potential includes Infinite Intelligence and Infinite Love and so on....

When you contact this always here Reality/True Being/Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness-Suchness deeply, and it becomes your True Core/True Identity (which it has always been, but one preferred playing the games of mistaken identity/separate self), then

• the clear light show of the visual field automatically becomes less important than the Always Here Reality/Abyss. The light show can actually go dark. Nothingness. You are not aware of yourself there, that would be too much movement. The eye can't see itself. But You/Reality has the POTENTIAL for sentience.
• That Infinite Nothingness is that in which "everything", every appearance the Visual Field, floats in in a nondual way. IT is always here. Behind your eyes, so to speak, and literally . The Nothingness behind your head, and "around" your Visual Field. The Nothingness "below" and in every appearance. Actually every appearance IS this Nothingness, appearing as appearance.
• Its the Groundless Ground of everything. It is that which gives you absolute Freedom, and Eternity in the palm of your hand.

Practically speaking: When the "access" to the Absolute is available in a stable way, it is this aspect that "one"

• tends to talk about
• values highest, and identifies with.
• Not so much the Illusion-Light-Show.

But of course the Nothingness is the "substance" or groundless ground of all appearances, in a total nondual way. They are not separate. But the Nothingness/Infinite Potential is more fundamental than the Appearance Clear Light Show.

Selling Water by the River

[Salvijus]

@Breakingthewall there is one state in buddhism called nibbana where all experience is gone, all taste, sound, feelings, visions, thoughts, etc everything is gone except the primordial awareness witness that observes things arise and pass away. 

A state like that would make a very clear distinction that there is an absolute observer and there are temporary changeful objects of observation that come out of that infinite void. Absolute observer can exist without the objects of observation, objects of observation cannot exists without observer being there in the first place. I think this is a king argument that can't be beaten. ? 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Are you observing the coffee table or is the coffee table observing you?

Although I agree with all you have written, Salvijus, there is a third formulation that at least I prefer: The coffee table observes itself. Perceptions perceiving themselves.  

When it feels like that, it is stable. At least for me.

And if the coffee table is gone, and you are gone, you are not aware of yourself (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, Cessation). But "Nothingness & Infinite Potential", with a potential for sentience. That is when all dualities collapse in the Always Here Reality that One truly is.

And when being awake to That Nothingness/Absolute Reality in daily life,

• one is not a Witness or a human, but One has a witness or human. In the Reality that One is. Totally nondual.
• Then "one" gets out of the way, and lets Awakened Awareness do what the you/human did before. And at least in my case, that works more smoothly than the illusion that was in place with the separate self-show before.

Water by the River

 

We are that Reality. When you understand this, you see that you are Nothing, and being Nothing, you are Everything. That is all.  - Kalu Rinpoche

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

there is one state in buddhism called nibbana where all experience is gone, all taste, sound, feelings, visions, thoughts, etc everything is gone except the primordial awareness witness that observes things arise and pass away. 

I had that experience many times with 5 meo and for me it's horrible, death abyss, until i realized that it's another experience and that's it.

The question would be, why this actual experience seems finite? How? That's very difficult to understand. I saw in a psychedelic trip that the thing is that now and always the infinity is the case, but by a trick of, shall we say, engineering, we are limited to something like blinders on a donkey that only lets us see exactly this. if you remove the blinders, with a psychedelic for example, infinity manifests itself. so right now the infinite is infinitely fragmented. but is this so? who knows, probably not. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

there is a third formulation that at least I prefer: The coffee table observes itself. Perceptions perceiving themselves.  

That's clever. But let me challenge this.

Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing.

I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's clever. But let me challenge this.

Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing.

I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. 

I would agree that a small part of you vanishes when a coffee table vanishes. But your essental nature never vanishes no matter how many objects in the universe were to vanish. Hence that formless nothingness would fit the definition of absolute the best and everything else is also you, but it's your secondary nature, not primary.

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I had that experience many times with 5 meo and for me it's horrible, death abyss, until i realized that it's another experience and that's it.

Sounds kinda fun ? 

 

[Yimpa]

31 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Here's a question to challange this. Are you observing the coffee table or is the coffee table observing you?

Clearly observer and the objects of observation are not the same, they are one i agree, but not the same.

They are the same, just not in the way you think it is.

[Moksha]

7 hours ago, FlyingMan said:

 As long as you want to learn FROM him, he's your best friend.  But criticize him, or point out his self-deception, and you're the asshole.  I think it's pretty damn obvious though.

Only on the surface. We have disagreed from time to time, and Leo has fired a few shots, but deep down he knows his own demons and respects sincerity.

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Moksha said:

Leo has fired a few shots

Leo fired all the shots. 

I heard he refuses to work with alcohol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯