Is Peter Ralston Wrong About Enlightenment Not Being A State?

[Yimpa]

10 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

For example, when they say paper is empty, but full of everything, it is about how the paper cannot exist in the absence of trees, sun, stars, water, loggers, etc... A nice insight, but where is the relevance to existential questions?

Paper can exist in the absence of trees, sun, stars, water, loggers, etc.

How is that possible?

[Water by the River]

On 4.5.2023 at 10:17 AM, Razard86 said:

You were good until you used the term separate self. That term confuses people. There is no separate self, if I take a gun and shoot this separate self you refer to, notice that the dream will end. The self is the dream itself. The character is not separate. They use the term separate self for you to unattached your identity from the avatar to all that is perceived. So its a relative pointer, but the problem most have is they keep demonizing the character and saying oh it doesn't exist, and all this other nonsense.

The dream is absolute truth, the character is not separate from the dream. Therefore the character is also absolute truth. The character is a filter of absolute truth, so how can it actually be separate? It can't. It's only separate in relation to the teaching that seeks to expand the identity of the spiritual seeker. This is the barrier that stops many from fully awakening.

I think we are already aligned here: The separate self is an arising appearance, appearing/moving temporarily in You/Reality/Infinite Totality, like any other appearance. Every night in deep sleep its gone. The bullet will also work 

That is why I mostly write "Separate Self Arisings". "Arisings", to emphasize

• it is not a really existing "thing", more like a process clouding ones recongition of ones True Identity, but the clouding itself creates an illusion, and is an illusion, not a thing. Technically defined by some as ignorance, or illusion, Maya...
• All arisings in ones mindstream that make one feel/think that one is not the Totality, but something separate (ranging from Ego/Body-Mind to a Transparent Witness with some last remnants of feeling separate/Individuality or feeling like watching/experiencing the totality).

At the end, its all of the same/one essence, like the beautiful example of gold or origami/paper. Same essence, different forms/expressions.

I belong not to those demonizing the whole character/body-mind.

• The more functional it is (health, relationships, financials, the whole Maslow-Pyramid), the easier it is to transcend the separate-self-arisings-part of it. Wilber for example says a strong&healthy ego is easiert to transcend than an ego that hurts in many areas. That is also my experience.
• The character can also operate without separate-self-arisings. The separate-self-arisings are only an optional part of the character/body-mind.
• Actually, at least in my experience, once the separate-self-arisings are no longer disturbing ones intuition, one acts much more efficiently/smoothly/successful, much closer aligned to Ones True Core.
  • Once "one" gets out of the way, things run much smoother. 

Actually, "the" separate self is more a process/structure/Gestalt,

• "separate-selfing", a verb more than a noun/thing....
• Like a process, that can happen, but that can also stop. Then, the True You/Reality, by definition has still to be there, and is of course, as always.  The clouds between the sun, that can also evaporate or no longer happen.... and then, welcome home to a home you never left in the first place. It only appeared so. Coming back from a trip that never really happened, only appeared to do so. 

Thanks for your message, I want to learn to optimize communicating all of that, and I should emphasize this point sometimes more.

Water by the River

 

PS: "The dream is absolute truth, the character is not separate from the dream. Therefore the character is also absolute truth."

Many (including me) would probalby prefer writing that the essence of the dream or character is Absolute Truth, but not Absolute Truth in itself (which is the Infinite Totality, the One without a second, of which nothing can be finally said) but this depends on the context it is used, and is a question of preference.

One can only use pointers to the Absolute Reality of which nothing positive can be said at the end since that would limit it, make it no longer infinite.  

• IT can only be pointed to (the pointers appearing in IT/Absolute Reality), and realized as Ones True Identity.
• That is why the pointer Nothingness of Halaw (God is Nothingness) is actually in my opinion a beautiful tool.
• The essence of every appearance is already Nothingness.
  • The essence of every thought, of every "separate self arising" is already Nothingness.
  • The "behind ones head" is it already floating in Nothingness. The visual field is floating in Nothingness already.

Once the referent (Enlightenment, realizing ones True Identity as Absolute Reality/Absolute) is in place, one can use signifiers (pointers) to point to it. Before that, all pointers can only show in the direction of that Realization of Ones True Essence.

When the referent is in place, something like Bashô "The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop!" can work very precise when said from one person knowing the referent and the corresponding/accompanying states, to another. Much more precise than some pointers like Absolute/Nothingness/Infinite Reality,....  At the "edges of Duality" approaching "that" which can never be made to an object of any kind is challenging business 

I assume that you mean that, and that its only a preference of writing/pointing.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Water by the River

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

I REALLY think ancient Indians used DMT or Ayahuasca brews.

There's definitely a history of people using psychedelics across spiritual traditions. Still, it's interesting that none of the major writings advocates "medicines" as a primary pathway to enlightenment. At best, they are mentioned as an optional aid to awareness. At worst, they are warned against.

A few writings I've come across over the past couple of years regarding drugs and alcohol:

[The] things which had entirely filled my attention on that first occasion [chronicled in The Doors of Perception], I now perceived to be temptations – temptations to escape from the central reality into false, or at least imperfect and partial Nirvanas of beauty and mere knowledge.
- Aldous Huxley

Those who drink to intoxication are digging up their own roots.
- Buddha

I had thought of psychedelics as a spiritual path, and now he was pulling that conceptual rug out from under me. From the place of oneness where Maharaj-ji sits, psychedelics are just a fragmentary shard of a vastly deeper reality. He showed me they are a limited window, all the while reflecting back to me the deeper place of love within myself…

"These medicines were known in the Kulu Valley long ago," he said, "but yogis have forgotten about them." He said psychedelics could be useful if you took them in a quiet, cold place and your soul was turned toward God. "They allow you to come into the presence of Christ, to have darshan, but you can only stay for two hours."

It was good to visit Christ, Maraj-ji said, but it was better to be Christ. "This medicine won't do that," he continued. "It's not the true samadhi, absorption in God. Love is a much stronger medicine."
- Ram Dass

No doubt, a drug that can affect your brain can also affect your mind, and give you all the strange experiences promised. But what are all the drugs compared to the drug that gave you this most unusual experience of being born and living in sorrow and fear, in search of happiness, which does not come, or does not last. You should inquire into the nature of this drug and find an antidote.

Birth, life, death -- they are one. Find out what had caused them. Before you were born, you were already drugged. What kind of drug was it? You may cure yourself of all diseases, but if you are still under the influence of the primordial drug, of what use are the superficial cures?
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

My personal view is that psychedelics can help loosen mental structures, but they are only useful to the extent that people leverage this temporary realization of spaciousness to perpetually detach from the habits of the mind. Unless they do the work of integration, they will probably only be as awake as their next trip.

On the Tao Te Ching, it can be more opaque than other sources, but is worth the dive. Even if read at the surface level, people can at least realize that absolute reality is mysterious and beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. That alone is a worthy insight.

There are other pearls scatter along the seabed. Some of my favorites:

Who can make the muddy water clear? Let it be still, and it will gradually become clear.

Truth waits for eyes unclouded by longing.

Understanding this and leaving no trace,
The wise alone are perfectly blind
Seeing clearly into the distance.

[Water by the River]

3 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

I REALLY think ancient Indians used DMT or Ayahuasca brews. Most of my psychedelic visions on n,n-DMT, aside from jesters (which didn't exist irl then, so weren't an archetype in anyone's mind), were of Hindu deities. Chicken or egg type thing, I suspect the drug came first... As in those ancient Indians took the drugs and saw the same apparitions and that's why this occurs.

Probably what "Soma" is.

Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, Crowley.

I found it fascinating. 

and:

https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz

"The most famous and oft-cited passage by both ancient and modern commentators on the Supreme Array occurs when Sudhana meets the Bodhisattva Maitreya. Maitreya stands before a jeweled palace. When Sudhana asks about how he should carry out the course of a bodhisattva, Maitreya tells him he should enter the palace. Sudhana then asks for permission to enter; the Bodhisattva snaps his fingers and the doors to the palace open. Once inside, Sudhana sees that the palace’s interior is adorned with precious substances, many hundreds of thousands of leagues wide and as vast as the realm of space. Moreover, inside the palace are hundreds of thousands of other palaces arrayed in the same manner spread out in all directions. Miraculously, each dwelling remains distinct while simultaneously reflecting every other one and all of its objects. Experiencing this  awesome vision, Sudhana is overcome with bliss and bows down in all directions. At the moment of prostration, through the power of Maitreya, Sudhana perceives himself simultaneously in each and every palace witnessing a different scene from Maitreya’s bodhisattva course of conduct. In a single instant, Sudhana sees countless eons, realms, beings, bodhisattvas and buddhas, and hears endless teachings. In the centre of all his, Sudhana sees one palace larger than the others. Inside it, he witnesses Maitreya in his final life performing the acts of a buddha, such as going forth to homeless life, sitting under the enlightenment tree, attaining omniscience and preaching the Dharma. While Sudhana is watching the endless and simultaneous practices of Maitreya in all the palaces, suddenly the Bodhisattva enters the dwelling, snaps his fingers once more and says, Arise, Son of Good Family! This is the nature of conditioned factors. Son of Good Family, characterized by their non-fixity, all conditioned factors are controlled through the knowledge of bodhisattvas. In this way, lacking the perfection of an essence, they are like illusions, dreams and reflections."

and

" In an important sense, Buddhism has always been “psychedelic.” Recall the meaning of psychedelic as “manifesting the mind.” The very first verse of the Dhammapada, one of the most ancient Buddhist texts, reads:

The mind is the basis for everything.

Everything is created by my mind, and is ruled by my mind.

When I speak or act with impure thoughts, suffering follows me

As the wheel of the cart follows the hoof of the ox. "

 

Water by the River

Edited May 5, 2023 by Water by the River

[OldManCorcoran]

6 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Paper can exist in the absence of trees, sun, stars, water, loggers, etc.

How is that possible?

That's just what Buddhists and also various Indian philisophies are about, you are meant to see everything as interdependent etc... You're meant to see the entire cosmos within a speck of sand.

It's actual "spiritual" people type thinking. It isn't to do with ontological truths which the Buddha refused to discuss.

[OldManCorcoran]

5 hours ago, Moksha said:

There's definitely a history of people using psychedelics across spiritual traditions. Still, it's interesting that none of the major writings advocates "medicines" as a primary pathway to enlightenment. At best, they are mentioned as an optional aid to awareness. At worst, they are warned against.

In tribal cultures, the drugs are seen as the only way to gain spiritual knowledge. They believe often that the drugs are literally communication with God or whatever spirits they believe in.

In ancient India etc, being a guru came with social benefits. It still does. If everyone was "enlightened" they wouldn't get to have followers and all of the benefits.

4 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, Crowley.

I found it fascinating. 

"Secret Drugs of Buddhism is the first book to explore the historical evidence for the use of entheogenic plants within the Buddhist tradition."

I am not surprised, but never knew this.

So people just sitting there in silence are indeed completely wasting their time. It's another one of those things with benefits which are nothing to do with a mystical event or existential truths.

It is not surprising since biology is super evolved to ensure ego is constant. If ego could just shut off, the species wouldn't survive. That's like, something has actually gone wrong with the brain if you're sober, sat there, and just have a total ego death.

Can you imagine driving a car then your mind just randomly goes into a Salvia trip?

Like most things in life, it's people who achieved things via other means telling others (usually for money) to do something else. Like Mr. Olympias on tonnes of tren and insulin and HGH telling people they can get as big as them with chicken and broccoli... Or people who came into money via parents or criminal activity or whatever, discussing "hard work" to get rich... Or people who had a mystical awakening due to hard drugs destroying their biologically cemented ego, telling people to just sit there in silence like morons lol.

[Water by the River]

7 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

"Secret Drugs of Buddhism is the first book to explore the historical evidence for the use of entheogenic plants within the Buddhist tradition."

I am not surprised, but never knew this.

So people just sitting there in silence are indeed completely wasting their time. It's another one of those things with benefits which are nothing to do with a mystical event or existential truths.

I agree that large parts of Buddhism/"Hinduism" and any other Spiritual Tradition had major impacts from psychedelics, and genetically/"karma-developed" realizers. Yet, most of them did some kind of meditation, often for very long times. And I don't believe (personal opinion, based on what I have seen) that only tripping will get you really to a deep identity with your True Identity, Absolute Reality itself. Especially its essence, which Hawal for example calls Nothingness (because the essence  of the Always Here Reality is totally empty, Nothing(ness) at all. Only this way (totally empty), It/True You can be totally infinite and manifest anything. 

For sure, ignoring or not using, or advising against psychedelics, or the "hurricane" to blow away 95%+ of the separate self arisings/clouds covering the sun(True Nature, see some of my last posts) is in my opinion not the most efficient and integral method. Why not use these tools as a preview to the fulltime thing of stabilized Awakening, enabling to perceive

• the visual field as lucid hologram-like mere appearances hovering in infinite timeless Nothingness and
• disabling/transcending the separate self arisings from a level of separate self bodymind mindstrem to being a mostly empty witness
  • but still some kinds of very very subtle layers of Individuality/separateness still going on, like an empy-nothing-consciousness watching (or even being) some kind of mere appearance-infinity. But still with some very very subtle levels of the separate self arisings still active.
  • and these very fine last layers/filters/clouds of the remaining separate self arisings/individuality/being not the Totality at the deepest Identity Level fully, prevent the full realization, which would make IT stable after coming out of the trip.
    • To become fully Everything/Totality on a stable basis, one has to be totally Nothing(-ness). At least for me, this seems totally logical in theory, and is also demonstrated in practice time and time again of what
      • kills the solidity of the visual field (and makes the visual field mere empty groundless appearance hovering in Nothingness) and its "externalness/not nonduality", making "It" one seamless infinite nondual Totality/whole: Being the Nothingness fully,and stabilizing in that.
      • Short form: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche

So, why did the actively psychedelic using traditions either disappear (Vajrayana in medieval India), or go underground in secrecy? My theory is:

• When you got a monastery with meditation technique (that is maybe not the most efficient one), bringing less than a few percent of the people to Enlightenment, and supplying that with the goooood psychedelic stuff ... (which was not so gooood in the past, nearly nobody had 5-MeO for example, mainly Mushrooms and LSD/Ergot/... and some DMT.
  • Well, you can imagine the show of the ladies and gentlemen inside which are by definition confusing in the beginning phases of their Psychonaut/tripping-journey
    • parts of their separte self arisings/Ego with the Infinite Field of Totality hovering as mere appearance in groundless eternal Nothingness when they take the psychedelics.
  • that probably has led to an Ego-show of the highest degree of only partly transcended Egos/separate selfs....
  • Imagine who would not like to join the club/monastery if rumours of tripping occur?
  • the support from the community to such an institution would have been shut down after quite fast after a few scandals of "not-so-enlightened-living" 

But most importantly (and at least my experience):

• To stabilize Awakening in daily life, which brings the bliss and freedom from psychological suffering) that everybody (wants independend of outer circumstances), one needs a deep identity shift towards ones True Nature, which is
  • Nothingness as "Subject"/or better Deep-Identity with the nondual Totality and Nothingness (Halaw) as its essence,
    • which means no remaining separate self arising not spotted and "not believed"/"not hypnotized by"/not transcended/not cut-off fast enough.
      • and that takes time, hundreds if not thousands of hours resting in empty Suchness (which can then already be done in daily life, but the beginning phase without some (or a lot) sitting/meditation is probably difficult.
    •   and one doesn't get enough time in the psychedelic state to do that, and even more important
      • if you meditate, you get direct feedback on if you transcend your character/separate self arisings/Ego or not: If you don't, then the visual field doesn't get shimmering mere apperance, but stays rock-solid and "out-there/external/dual.
      • If you just drop psychedelic, it is probably impossible to not project certain remaining aspects of the separate self on the Totality, leaving it not totally empty of separate self/subject, but a mix of the Truth and remaining separate-self-illusion-arisings.
  • and Everything Else (the infinite Totality of the visual field/"external" world hovering as mere groundless imagined appearance in the always here Nothingness.
    • again, the very nice summary of Kalu Rinpoche: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.

 

All of that means that I believe that one has to and should do both, psychdelics AND meditation, preferably an efficient meditation-system (broken record of mine: I recommend for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown, and in general Mahamudra/Dzochen), I have written in my past posts about this topic):

• get Awakenings and previews of the real state of things via psychedelics, 
  • and hopefully don't get the separate self/ego blown up by that to epic proportions by projecting the properties of the epic/awe-inspring Absolute Reality on the separate self individuality arisings (that is Maya giving you a hugely seductive kiss)
• and get deeply established in ones True Identity (Nothingness), so that
  • one never forgets ones True Nature in daily life
    • never loosing the Deep Identity of being the Totality, the visual field staying nondual and as lucid empty mere appearances.
      • I have written about the Endohuasca-System, which is (I believe, and also my experience) triggered by stabilizing these empty states of transcending the separate self: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/
    • never loosing the bliss of ones own True Identity

One of the largest experiments (both in scope of people doing it, and psychonauts having gone as fare as ever before, and further) is being conducted right here in this community/forum, and in general with the ongoing psychedelic revival. We are sitting in the prime seats to see if those belittling meditation (and emphasizing only psychedelics or also only meditation, one or the other) or those that recommend both methods to be integrated and used together) end up

• living a beautiful, satisfying and blissful life, stabilizing their True Deep Identity in daily life, and
• explore more of the depths of the Kosmos.

My personal belief is that the Totality gives one a lot of insight into the structure of the manifested/relative side of Absolute Reality by doing mainly (or only) psychedelics, but

• so far, as I see it, Absolute Reality doesn't give the full bliss and stable Awakening in daily life to those only or mostly or only doing psychedelics.
  • Opposite examples welcome, I have not seen one so far that fully stabilized ones True Nature as Deep Identity (and the ensuing Liberation), neither historical nor contemporary. Even if it exists/existed/or will happen, think about what that says about the success rates of the paths psychedelic only and meditation.
• I also assume, since Absolute Reality is all there is, infinitely intelligent, all powerful, certain areas of exploration of the Multiverse are blocked for part-time-separate-selves only doing tripping, but falling from grace/loosing Awakening after the trip.
• As this worlds contains many many traps that stabilized the illusion of Maya/Duality/Separate Self, from what I see this minefield doesn't end when doing psychedelics, but actually starts there at the highest level: Blowing up ones Ego to epic proportions via projecting the separate self arisings/identity onto the properties of the Infinity Absolute Reality is a hugely seductive trap, but blocks the stabilizing of ones True Identiy (fully empty Nothingness -in Halaws definition- Core Identity), and being nondually Everything in daily life.

So, ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch one of the most interesting shows of the Multiverse developing right here in this forum, and in the psychedelic revival at large...  Bon voyage! 

Selling Water by the River

 

>PS: Can you imagine driving a car then your mind just randomly goes into a Salvia trip?

Sometimes I have the feeling that exactly something like that happens with fellow drivers  .Luckily, not too often... ( :

 

[Moksha]

5 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Why not use these tools as a preview to the fulltime thing of stabilized Awakening, enabling to perceive

• the visual field as lucid hologram-like mere appearances hovering in infinite timeless Nothingness and
• disabling/transcending the separate self arisings from a level of separate self bodymind mindstrem to being a mostly empty witness
  • but still some kinds of very very subtle layers of Individuality/separateness still going on, like an empy-nothing-consciousness watching (or even being) some kind of mere appearance-infinity. But still with some very very subtle levels of the separate self arisings still active.
  • and these very fine last layers/filters/clouds of the remaining separate self arisings/individuality/being not the Totality at the deepest Identity Level fully, prevent the full realization, which would make IT stable after coming out of the trip.
    • To become fully Everything/Totality on a stable basis, one has to be totally Nothing(-ness). At least for me, this seems totally logical in theory, and is also demonstrated in practice time and time again of what
      • kills the solidity of the visual field (and makes the visual field mere empty groundless appearance hovering in Nothingness) and its "externalness/not nonduality", making "It" one seamless infinite nondual Totality/whole: Being the Nothingness fully,and stabilizing in that.
      • Short form: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche

Unless there are physical/mental constraints, I see no reason why people couldn't try psychedelics to have these perceptions, or more precisely, to loosen or dissolve their mental misperceptions.

I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream.

I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization.

I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics.

I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription.

Even as a tortoise draws in its limbs, the wise draw in their senses at will…Even of those who tread the path, the stormy senses can sweep off the mind. They live in wisdom who subdue their senses and keep their minds ever absorbed in me.

[Yimpa]

@Moksha Have you ever used psychedelics?

[Moksha]

@Yimpa No. In this case, suffering was the ultimate psychedelic.

[Yimpa]

7 minutes ago, Moksha said:

No. In this case, suffering was the ultimate psychedelic.

And the greatest healer appears when you open yourself to suffering.

[Water by the River]

On 6.5.2023 at 3:50 PM, Moksha said:

Unless there are physical/mental constraints, I see no reason why people couldn't try psychedelics to have these perceptions, or more precisely, to loosen or dissolve their mental misperceptions.

I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream.

I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization.

I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics.

I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription.

Even as a tortoise draws in its limbs, the wise draw in their senses at will…Even of those who tread the path, the stormy senses can sweep off the mind. They live in wisdom who subdue their senses and keep their minds ever absorbed in me.

> I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream.

• I agree that there are many paths up the mountain. And there are cases where neither meditations nor psychedelics was necessary. Ramana, Anandamayi Ma, and others. But at least I personally know of many more contemporary and historic examples where either meditation with or without psychedelics brought realization, than examples where these two techniques were not used.

>I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization.

• We are also aligned that these extreme states are not necessary for Enlightenment. And psychedelics for sure are not necessary for realization. And probably they also have to potential to blow up ones  narcissism to God-sized dimension, preventing the final drop into Nothingness or becoming fully Nothing, and Everything, or realizing the Absolute. But used in an intelligent, smart and humble way with intelligence and insight, they can be nice tools in addition to for example meditation and other paths/methods.
  • We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche
• When having to choose on betting for meditation or psychedelics, I would always choose meditation because if its either or, I have yet to see a stable Full Realization coming from psychedelics only. But maybe its out there, I don't know. I know many cases (contemporary and historic) where meditation did the job. Luckily, for most people, it is not either or. And if it is not either/or, I would recommend both, with a focus on meditation.

> I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics.

• Yes

I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription.

• Everyones path up the mountain is unique. Yet, traveling (or at least starting on) a path that many already have traveled and reached the top of the mountain is maybe a good starting point. And then, one is always free to improvise and follow ones intuiton/heart.

And now I am going to read some of your archive of previous posts, looking for what you shared about your personal path, because I find your posts interesting, and I like them. Besides the path of suffering you mentioned, what specifically did you do/practice? How did it all develop?

Water by the River

[OldManCorcoran]

33 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

When having to choose on betting for meditation or psychedelics, I would always choose meditation because if its either or, I have yet to see a stable Full Realization coming from psychedelics only. But maybe its out there, I don't know. I know many cases (contemporary and historic) where meditation did the job. Luckily, for most people, it is not either or. And if it is not either/or, I would recommend both, with a focus on meditation.

How can you know that though? If you have not had ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad, you don't have something to compare against.

Even having experienced mystical states like that, meditation remains to be just sitting staring at the back of my eyelids, with absolutely nothing happening at all. Having been in the states does not seem to allow me to recreate them any easier... No insight. Nothing. In my experience it has been genuinely useless. Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does.

Of course that's only my experience of it. I don't know wtf is happening to people who apparently experience something wild while meditating. Do they just start tripping basically?

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, OldManCorcoran said:

 

How can you know that though? If you have not had ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad, you don't have something to compare against.

Even having experienced mystical states like that, meditation remains to be just sitting staring at the back of my eyelids, with absolutely nothing happening at all. Having been in the states does not seem to allow me to recreate them any easier... No insight. Nothing. In my experience it has been genuinely useless. Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does.

Of course that's only my experience of it. I don't know wtf is happening to people who apparently experience something wild while meditating. Do they just start tripping basically?

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does.").

Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown,  Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali).

Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day.

All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation.

But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. 

I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: 

• Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so).
  • which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth."
  • It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver.
• If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended.

That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do:

• Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature.
• That consists mainly of two parts:
  • the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including
  • the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined.
  • Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche
  • When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills.
  • And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! 

And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way.

I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details.

All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. 

All the best on your journey. Bon voyage!

Selling Water by the River

Edited May 7, 2023 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:48 PM, Moksha said:

My personal view is that psychedelics can help loosen mental structures, but they are only useful to the extent that people leverage this temporary realization of spaciousness to perpetually detach from the habits of the mind.

Exactly, but the difference between having an experience of absolute infinity and not having it is the difference between seeing or not. You have to understand that not everyone will have this realization by taking drugs, it will only happen if you are predisposed or looking for it by doing constant deconstruction work. once you have had this experience, the moment passes and you lose it, but it is the difference between being blind forever or being blind and seeing for a minute. then you are blind again but you know what it is to see, and this makes you want to see constantly and take the necessary steps to make that happen, because, if it was possible for a while, what prevents that it's impossible now? you have to understand what processes occur to keep you asleep. if you have never woken up, it is impossible. to understand it is necessary to go from asleep to awake and back to asleep, several times. this promote the understanding, and understanding deactivates the walls that keep you tied 

but psychedelics not only do that, they also make your mind more flexible, cleaner, they bring to the surface all the negativity, all the bad habits, and they give rise to a quick and real transformation.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

@Water by the River Astute insights as usual. Meditation and psychedelics have tremendous potential, in addition to the traditional spiritual paths of contemplation, devotion, renunciation, and service. Really it comes down to sincerity and readiness, over any particular method.

Each winding path diverges and intersects with other paths in the ascent of the mountain. The great joke is that after an arduous hike, when you take the final step to the summit, you dissolve.

Good people come to worship me for different reasons. Some come to the spiritual life because of suffering, some in order to understand life; some come through a desire to achieve life’s purpose, and some come who are men and women of wisdom. Unwavering in devotion, always united with me, the man or woman of wisdom surpasses all the others…the wise who are always established in union, for whom there is no higher goal than me, may be regarded as my very Self…seeing me everywhere and in everything. Such great souls are very rare.

The reason matters less than the realization. The enlightening journey is love, which sees the sameness in and beyond all things.

To answer your question, I've experienced so many ego traps in my life that I've learned to step carefully. My foolishness has been my good fortune. Instead of trusting the senses, it navigates now from within.

[OldManCorcoran]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does.").

Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown,  Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali).

Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day.

All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation.

But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. 

I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: 

• Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so).
  • which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth."
  • It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver.
• If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended.

That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do:

• Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature.
• That consists mainly of two parts:
  • the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including
  • the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined.
  • Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche
  • When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills.
  • And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! 

And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way.

I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details.

All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. 

All the best on your journey. Bon voyage!

Selling Water by the River

Have you considered going to a toad ceremony and going the full way, just to see and compare?

People who have used a release dose of 5, and are experienced with meditation, would be able to draw apt comparisons, which could be helpful for others.

I have tried hallucinogens as well as meditation, and just my own experience is that meditation does nothing. I understand your own practice seemed to do something for you... Maybe it's like how some people have the ability to slow their heart to like, 1 BPM, and others just cannot grasp control over that... Or how some people can wiggle their ears or roll their tongue and others just don't seem to have the control over that element.