Is Peter Ralston Wrong About Enlightenment Not Being A State?

[Moksha]

50 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the formless mind is the infinite potential, but what about the form?

Have you considered that there is absolute unchanging reality beyond the transitory form and formless states within the dream? Whether it is the expansive cosmos in all its glory, or the unfathomably dense particle following the cosmic crunch, it is all still dream. What is beyond the dream?

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Moksha said:

As I see it, absolute reality is within everythingness (the cosmos) and nothingness (the void, or infinite potential). However, the cosmos and the void themselves are extreme dualities of the dream. The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness.

It is incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all. It has aspects (love, seamlessness, immutability, timelessness) but it is beyond attributes.

Beautiful description. We agree here.

Some "technical" musings:

At some points, all the pointers (necessarily including duality) collapse. The Reality manifesting them contains them all. What a good pointer can do is shut up the thinking mind and make it rest in suchness, so that the Absolute can reveal itself. To get the clouds away from the sun.

I personally like the pointer "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising is showing up" 

• where the Nothingness is described in such a way points to a specific state (like Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, or Cessation). The Absolute is (by definition) still present there. As Nothingness.
• And I like it because  "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising are showing up"  clarifies what is more fundamental: Not the  the full illusion-clear-light-show of imagined arisings ("the world"), but the Nothingness "beneath" it. The Absolute essence of manifestation, nondual, Nothingness. The show can disappear, the Nothingness/Absolute not.
• this "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arisings are showing up" which can also be called the Void or Infinite Potential, (as you do), is a state on the extreme end of the dream, a duality compared to the full show going on, as you write.
• The nice thing how Halaw (God is Nothingness) uses Nothingness as Absolute is: He describes the Nothingness as present throughout, also while the Dream-Show is active, as the essence of all appearance. Or the Absolute.
  • Halaw uses Nothingness as synonym for the Absolute.
  • Absolute sounds a bit like a thing, although its philosophical definition and the way you use the pointer/signifier pointing to its referent (Absolute Infinite Reality itself , the One without a second)  is absolutely correct.
    • The advantage of Nothingness when used for the Absolute is: you can not mistake it with some kind of object, some kind of "thing".
    • But as you correctly write, the Absolute it is neither existence nor non-existence, and because of that neither an Absolute that can be confused with an existing thing, nor Nothingness which can be confused with non-existence, capture Absolute Reality fully.

And the Absolute (or Nothingness in the usage of Halaw) is, as you write,  "incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all" [bold markings by me].

Nondual, Oneness, Infinite, One without a second. And Nothingness/Absolute as "its" essence.

"The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness." Madhyamaka-style, the Middle Path.

 

And how to conclude all the musings above? With a pointer that is maybe even better than Absolute or Nothingness? A pointer which at the same time makes the most sense after having passed the Gateless Gates? So with a nice Koan, "technically" the most precise pointer, but a pointer that can be pretty useless before the Gateless Gate.

• before the Gateless Gate, a Koan is mainly a concentration object,
• after the Gateless Gate a Koan is the technically most precise pointer to the Reality that contains all pointers/signifiers pointing towards "It".

Here it comes:

“An ancient pond/ a frog jumps in/ the sound of water.” 

Water by the River

PS: Maybe in the next life, I am done writing about pointers, and only stutter little Koans and smile 

[Breakingthewall]

33 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Have you considered that there is absolute unchanging reality beyond the transitory form and formless states within the dream? Whether it is the expansive cosmos in all its glory, or the unfathomably dense particle following the cosmic crunch, it is all still dream. What is beyond the dream?

all that about the cosmos and the particles are just ideas of the mind that we have acquired. reality is here and now and that is the absolute and there is nothing outside of this. those ideas of the cosmos are also the absolute, although they mean nothing. They are forms that arise, like everything else. trapped as we are in this eternal moment with no possibility of ever getting out of it, in eternity. careful with this! ? the first time I realized it was total, utter horror. until you realize that the depth of this exact moment from which I will never leave, is infinite. Hallelujah.

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Moksha do you understand what this moment is? What a.craziness is it? no idea makes the slightest sense. it is this coming out of nowhere and forming a deception, like a trap someone has set for you to keep you trapped. there is a storyline and a chain of events that binds you, but they are completely false, a trap. but at the same time what arises is real. there is nothing beyond, only the infinite amplitude, but it is right here, hidden but same time plain and obvious. a mirror trick 

if we want to understand, we have to focus on the form, once its false meaning has been eliminated. Focusing on the void is easy, but what's the point? form is beauty, glory, mystery. 

It's obvious that this is a game. We have to play

Edited May 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

@Water by the River Well said, and an apt koan ? Before frog, still pond. After frog, still pond. Beyond pond, I.

@Breakingthewall It's true that science is an accumulation of ideas, but even children's games have rulesets. Science is based on phenomenal observation, and the derivation of laws which seem to govern it. Do you put any stock in quantum physics and astrophysics as helpful in understanding the nature of the cosmos? Do you see the cosmos (time/space/matter) as being relative, depending on the perceiver? If so, do you see the possibility for a reality that is not relative, but absolute?

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Moksha said:

true that science is an accumulation of ideas, but even children's games have rulesets. Science is based on phenomenal observation, and the derivation of laws which seem to govern it. Do you put any stock in quantum physics and astrophysics as helpful in understanding the nature of the cosmos? Do you see the cosmos (time/space/matter) as being relative, depending on the perceiver? If so, do you see the possibility for a reality that is not relative, but absolute?

the cosmos and its laws are not real, nothing is. it's all a game, none of it really exists. They are stories to confuse you. seems crazy right? It's a joke that's not...so funny. ha...ha...nothing is real, there is no existence outside of what you are experiencing at this moment. You will never get out of this moment. this moment is existence, and all those ideas and facts that it traces... are invented, they mean absolutely nothing. well yes, they are a spider web, something made to trap you. as soon as you touch it, it swallows you, and you're inside again

[Moksha]

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the cosmos and its laws are not real, nothing is. it's all a game, none of it really exists. They are stories to confuse you. seems crazy right? It's a joke that's not...so funny. ha...ha...nothing is real, there is no existence outside of what you are experiencing at this moment. You will never get out of this moment. this moment is existence, and all those ideas and facts that it traces... are invented, they mean absolutely nothing. well yes, they are a spider web, something made to trap you. as soon as you touch it, it swallows you, and you're inside again

So you believe that all of reality is illusion. Or all illusion is reality.

That's cool if you see it that way, but I see absolute reality beyond the dream.

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, Moksha said:

So you believe that all of reality is illusion. Or all illusion is reality.

That's cool if you see it that way, but I see absolute reality beyond the dream.

The absolute reality is the present moment, there is nothing beyond. this is all that exists. I see the deception for what it is, but I don't want to remove myself from it. It's a game, and we have to play it.  the absolute is this but removing the meaning. then its infinity manifests itself. The deception is that there is something out of your direct experience, all the histories. 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

@Breakingthewall Let me try this, because it is closer to how I see it:

it would be better to say that reality is a mind that can imagine everything. what the mind imagines is the same as the mind, that is, it is a form of the mind. If the mind does not imagine anything, it is nothing, but it is. it's you. 

then, the absolute is you. immutable because it is always you. mutable because you constantly change shape

You see that the mind imagines (mutability), and also that the mind does not imagine (immutability).

This is what I mean by relative reality and absolute reality. In your language, imagination occurs within the mind, but it is not the encompassing mind that does not imagine.

[BlessedLion]

19 hours ago, FlyingMan said:

Leo has reified "states" of consciousness because it allows him to make psychedelics the king kong method, which in turn positions him as the top mostest AWAKE guru in the world.  He loves this, especially since deep down he knows he couldn't do it without them, and is insanely jealous of those that have.  So, to make himself feel better, he really really needs to be this top guru guy.  As long as you want to learn FROM him, he's your best friend.  But criticize him, or point out his self-deception, and you're the asshole.  I think it's pretty damn obvious though.

Super obvious. But he also has some good points and insights from what psychedelics have shown him. It's just when he makes it about him that it's obnoxious 

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

The absence of clouds could easily be seen as a state. A state of clouds being there, a state where they aren't.

@Breakingthewall get what you guys are saying but the point is that the sun (awareness) shines regardless of the state. There can be 1 cloud let's call that Bliss, sun still there , there can 100, depression, but the sun is still there. So the sun, awareness, YOU is always the case , the clouds come and go 

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, Water by the River said:

The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. 

Sounds like Leo and his whole , "what every human needs to hear I'd that their a selfish mother fucker" ideology. I watched the whole video. Thanks 

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, BlessedLion said:

Super obvious. But he also has some good points and insights from what psychedelics have shown him. It's just when he makes it about him that it's obnoxious 

Wait til you find out that he is you 

[BlessedLion]

But he's not me, he's Leo

[Salvijus]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I think the difficult thing to realize is to understand how movement occurs, what is the dream, that's is, what is the reality.

This is how i picture how creation emerges out of nothing, how sound happens out of nothing.

 

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

But he's not me, he's Leo

Yup. You’re imagining Leo. 

[Water by the River]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

it would be better to say that reality is a mind that can imagine everything. what the mind imagines is the same as the mind, that is, it is a form of the mind. If the mind does not imagine anything, it is nothing, but it is. it's you. 

then, the absolute is you. immutable because it is always you. mutable because you constantly change shape

Yes, I also resonate with that wording/pointers. The pointers have also been done in the "One Mind" form:

The Zen Teachings of Huang Po:

"All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists.   This Mind, which is without beginning is unborn and indestructible.   It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance.  It does not belong in the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old.  It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons.  It is that which you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.    It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured."

"Our original Buddha-Nature is, in highest truth, devoid of any atom of objectivity.  It is void, omnipresent, silent, pure; it is glorious and mysterious peaceful joy - and that is all.  Enter deeply into it by awakening to it yourself.   That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete.  There is naught beside.  Even if you go through all the stages of a Bodhisattva's progress towards Buddhahood, one by one; when at last, in a single flash, you attain to full realization, you will only be realizing the Buddha-Nature which has been with you all the time; and by the foregoing stages you will have added nothing to it at all.    You will come to look upon those aeons of work and achievement as no better than unreal actions performed in a dream."

" This pure Mind, the source of everything, shines forever and on all with the brilliance of its own perfection.  But the people of this world do not awake to it, regarding only that which sees, hears feels and knows as mind.  Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling and knowing, they do not perceive the spiritual brilliance of the source-substance.   If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe without hindrance or bounds."

 

So, the pointer of the "One Mind" can also be used perfectly. I believe it is only important that when talking about the "One Mind", it has to be fully empty (see statement from Huang Po above, in red). Like Moksha writs "It is incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all. It has aspects (love, seamlessness, immutability, timelessness) but it is beyond attributes."

Selling Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Moksha said:

 

 

9 hours ago, Moksha said:

You see that the mind imagines (mutability), and also that the mind does not imagine (immutability).

This is what I mean by relative reality and absolute reality. In your language, imagination occurs within the mind, but it is not the encompassing mind that does not imagine.

 More than a mind what we are is the present moment, which is unlimited and and things arise in it, so it seems like a mind. you can recognize yourself as the infinite present in things or in immutability, since they are qualitatively the same: the infinite now. The thing is that the infinite immutable void is simple, obvious. It fills your heart, it's pure joy, whatever you want, I agree. but things get complicated when the infinite, that is, you, starts to create its structures. what are these structures? you can see it? do not intellectualize it or go to other sources, look at it directly. you cannot understand it, it is very difficult, a lot of distraction prevents it. but if you do psychedelics, the structures open up, they show what they are to a certain extent. understanding occurs (in some extent). if you want to understand someone, watch what they do. the same for god. This is impossible without psychedelics and here comes Leo with his alien mind. do you think he's crazy? It is not like this.

But i agree with you, there is the absolute vs the relative only is you consider the relative the history of the mind, the meaning, the movie in which we live, and the absolute the present in the absence of it. that is, without the appearance of a character that evolves over time. That doesn't mean that it's empty, forms always arises , but they are the absolute

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

It is that which you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.    It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured."

Exactly

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Our original Buddha-Nature is, in highest truth, devoid of any atom of objectivity.  It is void, omnipresent, silent, pure; it is glorious and mysterious peaceful joy - and that is all.  Enter deeply into it by awakening to it yourself.   That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete.  There is naught beside.  Even if you go through all the stages of a Bodhisattva's progress towards Buddhahood, one by one; when at last, in a single flash, you attain to full realization, you will only be realizing the Buddha-Nature which has been with you all the time; and by the foregoing stages you will have added nothing to it at all.    You will come to look upon those aeons of work and achievement as no better than unreal actions performed in a dream."

Yes, perfect, but what about the movie that is happening? once you realize the deception of the mind and open yourself to the unfathomable of the present moment, you think: and the deception? so that? so perfect, complex, ingenious. It has a purpose, every micron of deceit has it and I want to understand it , always looking directly and avoiding conceptualizing, obviously, because if not it's another deception inside the deception

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

  If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe without hindrance or bounds

Exactly,  all conceptual thinking, including thinking about enlightenment, is a trap, the honey that catches the fly. once you get in, you can't get out, and with each attempt to get out you get deeper, it's a maze for rats, until you solve it and you say: and this joke? what's the point?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, perfect, but what about the movie that is happening? once you realize the deception of the mind and open yourself to the unfathomable of the present moment, you think: and the deception? so that? so perfect, complex, ingenious. It has a purpose, every micron of deceit has it and I want to understand it , always looking directly and avoiding conceptualizing, obviously, because if not it's another deception inside the deception

Warning: Loooong rambling ahead!   

The deception is what I call (at least for me)

• Separate-Self-arisings (I-thoughts, I-feeling), that arise with a very high frequency in Oneself (True Self/Reality). That leads to the world appearances manifesting as "external" and "solid/not hologram-like mere appearances". Et voila, the magic show! 
• When one spots them fast enough (separate self arisings) and is familiar with them, and doesn't get captured by them (in my opinion the goal of meditation), the visual field at some point becomes nondual, mere appearance, lucid/hologram-like, hovering in Infinite Nothingness.

Then,

• there is no more deception, since it doesn't "grip". Nothing the "separate self can throw at you" is believed anymore. It just runs/appears in True You/Reality, but is no longer to believed to be more real than mere arising in True You/Reality. Perceptions perceiving themselves in You/Reality, and some practical mind-stream-stuff of the human you have (not are, but have) running in True You/Reality.
• As long as any of it is still believed, and not transcended as objects/movements/arisings in the True You, one doesn't cross over to the other shore. 3% of still "gripping" and not transcended separate self arisings (very very subtle ones at the end, just mere "Individuality") prevents the full Realization of ones True Identity. They all have to "go".
• It is like the mindstream runs in oneself, and doesn't capture ones attention. Nothing of it. The mindfulness stays, it is all a magic show.
• There is no more "external" world, just a magic show of hologram like lucid appearances, hovering in Infinite Nothingness.

Suffering (psychological suffering, or resistance to what is here and now) has stopped at that point.

Then, it all becomes

• a magic show. It is totally clear what the essence of the magic show/movie is. Nothingness. 
• without suffering.

Sure, the Magic Show is a deception/Illusion. But what else is there to do for the True You?

• The Real You can not gain or loose ever. But it can manifest the show.
• And just a disclaimer/warning, because I write very freely from the absolute side of the street, tending to ignore the relative side of the street while writing this way: When you start to think while the separate self is still intact, that you can not gain or loose ever: Well, Maya will give one a nice smack demonstrating that one (as the separate self) can very well suffer, grow and develop, loose and gain. Karma is well and alive when the separate self is not fully transcended).

That leads automatically to appreciation of the beauty of the show.

• Appreciation of the beauty of manifestation.
• With a certain preference of being interested in all these mechanisms. But being interested not in a grasping way, like suffering when one doesn't get to understand it, but more like: Hey let's go for a walk, and if it rains we don't, and do something else. No big deal anyway....
• If there is no appreciation of the Illusion/Show, but disgust/horror/discontentment/anything other than marveling at/with the state of things, I would assume there is still a separate self active/not transcended, that then resists/suffers.

I personally find the investigation/exploration of the Multiverse, trying to understand the manifestation mechanism, Alien-anything quite interesting.

• But it no way leads to me grasping to the beauty and bliss of these experiences of understanding or exploring.
• If something like that would show up in my mindstream, a reaction would arise like:
  • All nice and well, interesting for sure, but starting egoic/separate self-suffering or grasping for it, no way I am doing that, would be rather not so smart.
  • and lead to suffering/resisting, and shutting down the Endohuasca-System (below).... and that would be it (grasping stopped).

Selling Water by the River

 

Some Quotes from Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown

"once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind":

"Tashi Namgyel calls the two stages prior to experiencing enlightenment recognizing awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] and setting up awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] . One-taste yoga establishes the foundation for awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] to emerge. In non-meditation yoga the practitioner: ...proceeds from the perspective of having seen the benefit of the aforementioned [special] samadhi. Generate a fervent desire for this [awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] ] to increase and continue once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind."  Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown

"The commentary merely alludes to these changes withthe brief passage from Gampopa, "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind" (TN, p. 5oo).These and other changes, however, are described in much greater detail in the oral tradition, especially by Rechung.'" Rechung says that the practitioner "unties the chakra knots that prevent the full experience of mental and divine bliss, respectively." [the Endohuasca-System of the Body, at least in my theory, see https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ] Attachment (zhar ba) is transmuted into great enjoyment (dga 'chen).The practitioner finds great bliss (bde chen) simply from experiencing ordinary phenomena as they arise in their own way. The natural spontaneity of the mind is freed. Bliss replaces misery." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown

That is how at least developed for me.

 

And the end of the game:

"According to Tilopa, such uninterrupted, effortless mindfulness finds no refuge (gtad so) in any particular events of the mind because of their inherent emptiness/clarity, so that awareness-itself turns back on itself and naturally crosses over [to Enlightenment]"

"In short, crossing over [to Enlightenment] happens at the time when every single sensory experience—appearance and thought—are viewed as clarity/emptiness and movement/emptiness with absolute certainty." [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed]

"Tashi Namgyel's root text explains how nonmeditation yoga ripens in three stages: At the lowest level, it becomes possible to maintain undistracted mindfulness of the simultaneous mind [simultaneous mind = nondual] at any time, so that it is unnecessary to limit the practice to formal meditation sessions. Seeming appearances arise "like a mirage." [mere luminous appearances hovering in Nothingness]. At the middle level,awareness-mindfulness continues day and night. The subtlest flow of shapes that arise is the mind's self-illumination. At the highest level, awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] stays even throughout all these subtle forms  [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed, including any feelings/thoughts of Individuality/being separate from the Totality/Reality]. Continuous awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] in the face of everything experienced is great nonmeditation. (TN, p. 697)

I highly recommend the book, it is truly awesome. It is a synthesizing text of the Mahamudra-Tradition, quoting many books of the tradition and integrating them.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Water by the River