Jaccobtw

Are You Getting Vaccinated?

100 posts in this topic

got my first shot

gotta wait a month for the second 

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Got mine also today, feel some side effects (arm hurts, tiredness, ...) but I can deal with it if it protects me from Covid.

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Made my appointment for shot #1. 

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Posted (edited)

No. Ive had so many vivid dreams now telling me not to follow the herd on this one.

Also I find no reason to trust bigpharma/bigtech companies that push this rushed out vaccines. 

Russel Brand made some good points about this in his latest video: 

Trust god, trust yourself, trust nature. Dont trust huge profitdriven companies (collective egos that operate from the materialistic-paradigm) that have over and over again proven that they are not to be trusted.

This is not about selfishness vs altruism. These companies are the complete opposite of altruistic.

In a way, isnt it more selfish and humanity-focused to want everyone to get vaccinated and survive? (If the vaccines indeed make this happen). All other lifeforms on this planet would surely benefit more if our population was reduced from a virus. Since when is death such a big scare for supposidly spiritual people? Not saying I feel this way but its another perspective.

Also the people politicising this issue, making it tribal, are fools in my opinion. Im not some conservative moron subscribing to right wing ideology. Actually I find it quite funny and counter-intuitive that the modern left seems to suddenly blindly trust huge capitalistic companies, and associate distrust of these with being right wing "anti-vaxxers" and conspiracy theorists... Truly upside down times we live in, peak of Kali Yuga.

 

But Im not telling anyone not to take it. Trust your intuition.

Edited by BlackPhil

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I also noticed this phenomenon. I am suddenly labeled as a right-wing, conspiracy theorist here in Germany, simply because I have a different perspective on vaccines, what freedom is about, what solidarity means and so on. 

I am also super confused why so many people suddenly think it´s right to force their opinion onto others. Taking a medical product should always be an individual decision and there shouldn´t be any drawbacks. Especially because the vaccinated people don´t have to fear the people who didn´t take it. They are safe from getting COVID, so unvaccinated people aren´t dangerous to them. 

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

I also noticed this phenomenon. I am suddenly labeled as a right-wing, conspiracy theorist here in Germany, simply because I have a different perspective on vaccines, what freedom is about, what solidarity means and so on. 

I am also super confused why so many people suddenly think it´s right to force their opinion onto others. Taking a medical product should always be an individual decision and there shouldn´t be any drawbacks. Especially because the vaccinated people don´t have to fear the people who didn´t take it. They are safe from getting COVID, so unvaccinated people aren´t dangerous to them. 

Indeed. Its the tribalistic nature of people in play, along with unconsciousness. People getting caught up in ideologies, unable to think independantly. By this point its getting silly tho. People seem to be completely unable to to take a step back and see themselves from an outside perspective. Seeing this phenomenon in humanity at large is no surprise, but it being this present even on a spiritual forum like this? Hmm, its worrying.

Edited by BlackPhil

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20 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

I also noticed this phenomenon. I am suddenly labeled as a right-wing, conspiracy theorist here in Germany, simply because I have a different perspective on vaccines, what freedom is about, what solidarity means and so on. 

I am also super confused why so many people suddenly think it´s right to force their opinion onto others. Taking a medical product should always be an individual decision and there shouldn´t be any drawbacks. Especially because the vaccinated people don´t have to fear the people who didn´t take it. They are safe from getting COVID, so unvaccinated people aren´t dangerous to them. 

I've been labelled that here on this forum, even though I'm not conservative and if you asked me a few years ago, I'd say I was more left-leaning. But today's left has become so toxic and authoritarian, it's the last thing I'd wanna support. Almost everything they do is manipulative, and they manipulate using people's higher values, which is genius.

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@vladorion

I agree, it´s disgusting how they use our highest values like solidarity in a way that´s completely lacking. A year ago I would have also said I am more left. Now I simply stopped trying to put people into these labels. 

The political left here in Germany has become so fascist, that it really is hard for me to live authentically here. I get ridicules and vilifies for living true to myself. 

The problem is people can use labels (conspiracy theorist, right-wing, brainwashed, trump-supporter, anti-vaxxer, etc.) to vilify someone, then they don´t have to listen to them anymore. Which makes discussions impossible. But we need discussions and different opinions to actually grow. 

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4 hours ago, BadHippie said:

I also noticed this phenomenon. I am suddenly labeled as a right-wing, conspiracy theorist here in Germany, simply because I have a different perspective on vaccines, what freedom is about, what solidarity means and so on. 

This is creating two categories called "conspiracy theory" and "different perspective". How we define the boundaries between those two categories is relative. For you, is any belief simply a "different perspective". Imagine a group believed that Angel Merkel was an alien from the planet Xenon and was working with Bill Gates to develop a vaccine that will transform humans into Xenites. The coronavirus is a hoax to distract the public. We are in danger and must unite to fight the evil Xenonites and Bill Gates. . . Would you consider this a "different perspective" that is just as valid as the perspective that Merkel is a human being and the coronavirus is a real virus? Would you seriously engage with someone who was trying to convince you of an alien invasion from Xenon as if their beliefs had merit?

I think most people would agree that the alien Xenon takeover story is a batshit crazy conspiracy theory. Yet it's not always cut and dry. there are different degrees: some narratives may be a mixture of conspiracy and realness. For example, it looks like there is some evidence that the coronavirus originated as a lab leak. Yet, this evidence has been mixed with some ideas that seem conspiratal. 

So where do you draw the line? The challenging part is doing introspection to examine one's belief. One's own beliefs seem reasonable to that person due to assumptions and lack of introspection.  To someone who believes in an alien invasion from Xenon, it is reasonable. It is their perspective. They assume it is true, so they don't question it. They seek out confirmation from others to confirm it and they avoid cognitive dissonance of conflicting information. 

As well, we could say the belief "the coronavirus is a hoax perpetrated by the government to take over. Masks, lockdowns and vaccines are all part of the government mind control plan". For most reasonable people, this would be a "conspiracy theory", yet the person holding those views doesn't see it that way. They believe they are awake and everyone else are sheep. They won't look at any evidence of the existence of viruses. All that "evidence" is part of the plan.

Yet as I mentioned, it gets much more complex. It's not as simple as either "different perspective" or "conspiracy theory"

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39 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

This is creating two categories called "conspiracy theory" and "different perspective". How we define the boundaries between those two categories is relative. For you, is any belief simply a "different perspective". Imagine a group believed that Angel Merkel was an alien from the planet Xenon and was working with Bill Gates to develop a vaccine that will transform humans into Xenites. The coronavirus is a hoax to distract the public. We are in danger and must unite to fight the evil Xenonites and Bill Gates. . . Would you consider this a "different perspective" that is just as valid as the perspective that Merkel is a human being and the coronavirus is a real virus? Would you seriously engage with someone who was trying to convince you of an alien invasion from Xenon as if their beliefs had merit?

 

There is a very big difference between believing in all the craziest conspiracy theories out there versus being critical and distrustful of big, capitalist companies that already have a very shady record on their necks. The very same companies that pushed opioids on people (causing another kind of epidemic), the same companies that continuously are lobbying against natural medicine in order to patent harmful lab-created drugs for profit etc. The list goes on.

Right now these craziest conspiracy theorists are being lumped together with people who are (rightfully so) critical of trusting these bigpharma-companies to inject a very rushed, new form of vaccine into the whole population in order to stop a virus with a relatively low death rate for atleast younger people. Its very lazy and stupid in my opinion.

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@Forestluv

Yeah there is actually work we have to do to understand reality. We have to do our own sensemaking to understand reality, otherwise we are simply believing stuff without actually checking. 

And believe it or not everyone I know, who gets labelled as a conspiracy theorists, actually has very good reasons to believe what they believe. I talk to them and try to understand where they come from. Most people who go to demonstrations here in Germany (at least the ones I talked to) have a pretty good sensemaking. How about trying to understand where they come from - if it´s not completely crazy, like the narrative you described - instead of vilifying them and assume they did a bad job in fact-checking. 

There are good/bad reasons for (not) wearing a mask, there are good/bad reasons to (not) take vaccines, and so on. You make it look like there is on absolute truth, and everyone who disagrees is a crazy conspiracy theorist and believes stupid bullshit. I can talk to most "conspiracy theorists" pretty normally, they aren´t as dogmatic as you make it look. 

But when I try to talk to pro-lockdown, pro-mask, pro mandatory testing people it´s like you talk to a wall. They mostly don´t have any arguments beside trying to vilify me by saying I don´t care about the deaths. I actually do care about the deaths, I just try to see the bigger picture and the lockdown look like they hurt our country a lot more than a lot of other ways to deal with the virus. 

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My first shot: 8 hours later my arm was sore, 12 hours later I took a 2 hour nap and then felt less tired

2nd shot: I got mine yesterday evening and so far so good. my arm is sore but thats about it

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Posted (edited)

I remember when the swine-flu vaccine was pushed out around 2009. Here in Sweden more people than the amount that died or got seriously ill from the disease in question later developed narcolepsy and other life-ruining symptoms from the vaccine. That vaccine was not new or rushed out like these new ones. Just saying.

Edit: Overall Im definitly not a so called anti-vaxxer. Its a whole different thing to take well tested vaccines against dangerous diseases like yellow fever etc. Another thing to hysterically call for mass vaccination of the whole population with untested ones like this. Having all the big-pharma companies compete for profit and speed.

Edited by BlackPhil

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4 hours ago, BlackPhil said:

There is a very big difference between believing in all the craziest conspiracy theories out there versus being critical and distrustful of big, capitalist companies that already have a very shady record on their necks. The very same companies that pushed opioids on people (causing another kind of epidemic), the same companies that continuously are lobbying against natural medicine in order to patent harmful lab-created drugs for profit etc. The list goes on.

You are pointing at a nuance: capitalist have a shady record. They don't have a sunny record and they don't have a dark record. They have a shady record. We could also say that capitalist companies have a checkered record.

Many people will categorize pharmaceutical companies as "good" or "bad". Yet this is inaccurate because it deletes data points. Imagine we flip a coin 100 times and get 48 "heads" and 52 "tails" (48% heads). However, we filter out the 52 data points of "tails". Now we are at 48/48 heads - 100%. This will give a distorted view and inaccurate conclusions. We cannot give a critical analysis on this data. 

This may seem like Captain Obvious, yet people do this all the time. They filter out specific data points. If our filter only allows shitty things pharmaceutical companies have done, then our conclusion will be that pharmaceutical companies are acting shitty right now with the covid vaccine. For example: 

11 hours ago, BlackPhil said:

These companies are the complete opposite of altruistic.

This selective filter will lead to distortions. A mind cannot think critically with such a filter. 

Similarly, if our filter only allows virtuous things pharmaceutical have done and filters out the shitty, then our conclusion will be that the pharmaceuticals are totally acting virtuous with the coronavirus. Given these data sets, these conclusions would be 100% logical and rational. 

 However, if we include data showing pharmaceuticals have done both shitty and virtuous things, it totally changes the evaluation. It becomes more complex and takes more effort to critically evaluate. 95% of humans are so intellectually lazy, they don't want to put the effort in. 

There are many possibilities. I agree that pharmaceuticals have done many shitty things and I'm skeptical. I teach a class on bioethics and point our various crap pharmaceuticals have done (including the opioid crisis). Here, I consider pharmaceutical executives to be guilty of massive acts of violence that severely injured / killed millions of people. They caused more harm than 1,000s of heroine dealers and faced no consequences. This evil act highlights the inherent evil that lurks within pharmaceuticals, yet doesn't mean they are 100% evil. It is context-dependent.

In the context of covid / vaccines, I would say that phramaceuticals are acting mostly good, yet with underlying unethical motivations. Yet those unethical motivations are being held in-check within the covid environment. For example, pharmaceuticals have a conflict of interest between R&D, and manufacture for the public good and profiteering. This excessive greed for profiteering has led to a lot of social harm. Yet in those situations, the pharmaceuticals tried to maximize profits by avoiding investment into R&D, getting people dependent on the drug and price gauging. For example, hypertension medication or insulin has a good profit margin, because people are dependent on it. This was why opioids were so lucrative for pharmaceuticals. However, vaccines are totally different. Pharmaceuticals hate investing in vaccines because the profit margin is so low. Vaccines are one-and-done. People don't have to take vaccines everyday. And pharmaceuticals can't charge a huge amount for a vaccine shot. They can't get away with charging $10,000 for one vaccine shot, yet they can easily get away with price gauge $10,000 from someone dependent on hypertension medication. 

An important point in the covid context is that pharmaceuticals have been paid upfront by the government and are continually paid. This completely removes risk and guarantees profit for the companies. This greatly reduces the toxic profit motive of pharmaceutcials. It's still there, yet at a much lower level. Covid is a very different environment than the opioid crisis. 

However, this does not mean that things will stay static. Things are dynamic. In a year from now, pharmaceutical executives may not be satisfied with zero risk and guaranteed profit. This is an inherent negative of capitalism - the quest for unending profit growth. Right now, pharm execs may be celebrating their good fortune of aero risk and 1 trillion in profits. Yet what happens six months from now if covid decreases and that 1 trillion in profit is only 0.5 trillion profit? To us, that seems like good news, since covid is going down. Yet it's not good news to toxic capitalists because they have a conflict of interest. 

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6 hours ago, BadHippie said:

How about trying to understand where they come from - if it´s not completely crazy, like the narrative you described - instead of vilifying them and assume they did a bad job in fact-checking. 

Because I'm not going to waste my time engaging with every theory. There aren't enough hours in the day and it's non-productive. For example, there are lots of people that don't believe in germ theory. They don't believe germs actually exist. I'm not going to waste my time with that type of nonsense. Similarly, I'm not going to waste my time discussing whether Hitler was a hero, whether homosexuality is immoral, whether the coronavirus is a hoax, whether Bill Gates is trying ito mind control humanity etc. Engaging in that type of stuff is not how I want to spend my life. I consider it to be low consciousness.

And there is the issue of good faith. If someone may approach me to discuss the nature of germs. They may try to come across as open-minded to "explore different perspectives". Yet it soon becomes clear that they are not oriented to "explore" anything. They have a pre-conceived agenda - such as trying to push an idea that germs don't exist. If they cannot go meta to that filter, there entire perception and interpretation will flow through that filter. It's a waste of time to engage with that. 

However, there are grey areas. For example, it seems like there is some evidence that sars-cov-2 originated as a lab leak. However, reasonable evidence and theories are also being contaminated by whacko B.S. I just don't have the time to sort through all the reasonable evidence/theory and B.S. The issue isn't that important to me and there are other things I want to do in life. 

The further a mind expands it's cognition, the less patience it has for low level B.S. 

6 hours ago, BadHippie said:

There are good/bad reasons for (not) wearing a mask, there are good/bad reasons to (not) take vaccines, and so on. You make it look like there is on absolute truth, and everyone who disagrees is a crazy conspiracy theorist and believes stupid bullshit. I can talk to most "conspiracy theorists" pretty normally, they aren´t as dogmatic as you make it look. 

That is not at all my orientation. My mind does not work in binary constructs. Rather, my mind is oriented toward seeing spectrums and relativity along various inter-connected lines within a holistic system.

Seeing good/bad reasons for (not) wearing a mask, good/bad reasons to (not) take vaccines etc is entry-level stuff. Within each of those good/bad reasons there is a spectral degree of good / bad along. And if we look at any particular good / bad component there are smaller good / bad components inside. As well, each good / bad designation is relative and malleable. 

For example, you could give me a good reason for wearing a mask. That is along a spectral degree of "good" (from mildly good to extremely good). And there are multiple planes emanating from that good reason. Along one plane, it can be mildly good. Along another plane, your reason may be very good. And within that good reason there exists both aspects of goodness and badness. There is also relativity. 

Yet I generally don't speak in these terms because it takes a very fluid mind that can perspective jump and hold ideas with lose handles. Most minds don't work like this and most minds are too lazy to put in the effort. 

 

 

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Got my vaccine and my behavior has not changed. So much for the Bill Gates brainwashing. \xD/

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Vaccines are one-and-done. People don't have to take vaccines everyday. And pharmaceuticals can't charge a huge amount for a vaccine shot. They can't get away with charging $10,000 for one vaccine shot, yet they can easily get away with price gauge $10,000 from someone dependent on hypertension medication. 

An important point in the covid context is that pharmaceuticals have been paid upfront by the government and are continually paid. This completely removes risk and guarantees profit for the companies. This greatly reduces the toxic profit motive of pharmaceutcials. It's still there, yet at a much lower level. Covid is a very different environment than the opioid crisis. 

People in Germany are already talking about taking 3 vaccine shots yearly - because the virus (obviously) mutates. Personally I don´t feel like vaccinating myself. I´ve been healthy almost all of my life without any vaccination. They are probably a good thing for old people, but completely unnecessary for younger people, in the case of COVID. 

Yet they are trying to push mandatory vaccines for everyone. I don´t see how that´s not fishing for more profit? 

Quote

 

That is not at all my orientation. My mind does not work in binary constructs. Rather, my mind is oriented toward seeing spectrums and relativity along various inter-connected lines within a holistic system.

Seeing good/bad reasons for (not) wearing a mask, good/bad reasons to (not) take vaccines etc is entry-level stuff. Within each of those good/bad reasons there is a spectral degree of good / bad along. And if we look at any particular good / bad component there are smaller good / bad components inside. As well, each good / bad designation is relative and malleable. 

For example, you could give me a good reason for wearing a mask. That is along a spectral degree of "good" (from mildly good to extremely good). And there are multiple planes emanating from that good reason. Along one plane, it can be mildly good. Along another plane, your reason may be very good. And within that good reason there exists both aspects of goodness and badness. There is also relativity. 

Yet I generally don't speak in these terms because it takes a very fluid mind that can perspective jump and hold ideas with lose handles. Most minds don't work like this and most minds are too lazy to put in the effort. 

 

I agree. I most don´t use these terms. I just wanted to make a point. As you make it seem like all "conspiracy theorists" only have stupid reasons for what they believe when it reality it´s super nuanced. 

Quote

And there is the issue of good faith. If someone may approach me to discuss the nature of germs. They may try to come across as open-minded to "explore different perspectives". Yet it soon becomes clear that they are not oriented to "explore" anything. They have a pre-conceived agenda - such as trying to push an idea that germs don't exist. If they cannot go meta to that filter, there entire perception and interpretation will flow through that filter. It's a waste of time to engage with that. 

Sounds like Rule Omega to me. If you heard about it. 

Don´t you also have a pre-conceived agenda when you say that germs do exist? Did you actually check for yourself? I for example believe in germs, yet I don´t think I am a 100% right. I talked to a few people who said that the whole Virus-theory gets misinterpreted and they were even able to show me evidence (that was quite compelling, still not sure about it) for that. This doesn´t mean that there aren´t any germs though, just that I have to synthesize both perspectives to a higher one. 

 

Edited by BadHippie

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Posted (edited)

Just got my first vaccine today. No noticeable side effects so far.

Actually the most notable aspect of the whole experience was how incredibly well organized and hassle free getting the vaccine was. I think I may have been in and out of there in less time than it's taken me to get a prescription filled at a pharmacy. Almost as if it's easy to demonstrate that medical care can be delivered safely and efficiently through publicly funded mechanisms...

Edited by DocWatts

The problem is one of opposition between subjective and objective points of view. 

So either the objective conception of the world is incomplete, or the subjective involves illusions that should be rejected.  - Thomas Nagel

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