mmKay

"Stop the EU migration pact, save EUROPE"

56 posts in this topic

I don't think migration is as big a deal as it is made out to be. 

Paranoia of the masses. Maybe they don't have better things to focus on 

Bad feelings towards immigrants usually result from plain racism and has little to do with fear of losing cultural identity. 

A few million migrants and immigrants is not going to make any difference. 

It's literally insane level of ethno nationalism that is growing in the West. Reminds me of the Third Reich. 

It's closed minded, low consciousness and Stage Blue mentality gone amok. 

I predict a second peak in Nazism in Europe in the coming decades. 

Hogwash 

Who else is stoking these anti-people fears and paranoia other than the paranoid Right wing media?

 

Edited by Preety_India

Create your own life system. 

Preety preety

And then my dear, you can take a bath in suds. 

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@Preety_India That is a myopic view of a complex problem. The problems that arise from large immigration can't be dismissed that easily and the problems seen are systemic and will need to be addressed in near-time. 

The problems are vastly different in different countries and it's not helpful to lump "West" into the one and same category.

Unfortunatly, in Sweden, the inability to have constructive conversations about such hot topics, on a political level, has resulted in polarization and more-or-less the ignoring of an array of negative side-effects and thus postponing actions. 

This lack of actionability in Swedish politics isn't exclusive to immigration, nor is it a new phenomenon, but is deeply widely systemic.

The mistakes made so far will have long term consequences, and those mistakes don't have to do with immigrants or racism per se but rather naivite about the need for a sustainsble short and long-term plan in terms of impact on the Swedish systems e.g. wellfare, but most prominently the absolute lack of plans in terms of what successful integration looks like.

A lot of these problems seen arise from a Swedish post-modern approach towards and inability to handle Blue value system problematics that result from a fast and large change in population dynamics.

Approximately 20% of the Swedish population are immegrants and over the past years Sweden have kept one of the highest rates of immigration per million citizens out of the Europe an countries and the consequences of this is easy to see, not the least in terms of violent crime. 

These kind of things are reactions towards types of dysfunction perceived and such expressions and the underlying needs need to be acknowledge and understood for what they are, rather than seen as racism and "up coming peaks of nazism". Only then can they be addressed in ahealty and progressive way. Ignoring or dismissing these expressions just increases the pressure in the system until such a point that it depressurizes into unheatly expressions.

We need to stop viewing happenings as black-and-white and good-and-bad which further polarizes, and instead acknowledge that everything is shades of gray and welcome the exploration of each others perspectives to gain understanding of the percieved problems and underlying needs so that we can reach actionability and actual results rather than maintaining fixed positions and endless hateful discussions.

We all can start with noticing any emotional attachment to this subject, it is rather evident, and work towards detachment from it to further improve our own abilities to create positive change. 

Edited by Eph75

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It's a complicated topic, and i don't live in Europe, but my thoughts are as follow.

The EU is World's most developed place, and the continent where the population is higher in the SD scale, that means, in a few years it could become a breeding ground for 2 tier thinkers, who may have a chance at solving some of the world's problems.

It is sad that many countries suck right now due to past exploration by EU countries.

But the truth is, Europe doesn't help anyone in the long run by taking in more imigrants than it can handle.

By filling their countries with RED/blue or purple/RED or even Blue imigrants we pull their center of gravity down the spiral.

That way, we keep things sort of where they are, except the population will increase and we weill destroy more and more the environment.

So it's a best shot to limit immigration and do what we can to speed up the conscious development of the continent.

Untill we don't have a few powerfull governments on solid Green with at least some shades of yellow nothing is gonna get really better. And as people in third world countries reproduce like rabbits, the immigration problem will get worse and worse.

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3 hours ago, Eph75 said:

These kind of things are reactions towards types of dysfunction perceived and such expressions and the underlying needs need to be acknowledge and understood for what they are, rather than seen as racism and "up coming peaks of nazism". Only then can they be addressed in ahealty and progressive way. Ignoring or dismissing these expressions just increases the pressure in the system until such a point that it depressurizes into unheatly expressions.

Reality is not as soft and nuanced as you're trying to make it. 

Immigrants routinely face racist hate attacks and crimes. That's when such nuanced dialogue goes out the window. 


Create your own life system. 

Preety preety

And then my dear, you can take a bath in suds. 

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@Preety_India Reality is hard and nuanced, and most of all complex. You're lacking respect for the complexity of what is. It is in the face of volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity (VUCA) that we, need to come together into collaboration around that complexity, so that we increase our combined ability to face and handle these new circumstances and these new problems that they bring.

Again, racism can't be generalized, when talking about different countries that are vastly different in nature. In Sweden, racism is foremost an expression between different groups of immigrants and not native population against immigrants.

An interesting question here is, what exactly do people mean by racism, and what it includes - a question that calls for contemplation. The word carry vastly different meaning depending on where you are and who you are. Just like feminism wrongfully has gained a bad rap due to some radical elements that make a lot of non-constructive noise.

I understand that you are speaking from a different point of view, of course, what else is there, and that being valid, what else could it be, yet such a one generalization won't be valid for all nations.

I am focusing on the situation in Sweden for the simple reason that this is my playground. 

I wish you could visit Sweden and look for this western racism, and you will find something different, something far more complex in terms of something that few are willing to talk about, that goes way beyond the black-and-whiteness (absolutely no pun intended) of most peoples logic's and assumptions.

It is the contradictions held within the post-modern, ethnocentric, Green vMeme values when stuck in itself, unhealthy, that is currently preventing the overcoming of itself. In a sense it is the symbolism held within thoughts that produces such symbolic [non] actions that we are experiencing in Sweden, instead of producing actions that address the actual problems that have arisen. Seemingly out of fear of having such actions being confused and deemed as being racist which it of course is not. Paradoxically, more so, avoiding the problems becomes polarizing, segregating and racist in itself, if one were to compare the two side-by-side, and the outcomes they produce. 

So please, don't underestimate the complexity, and face that complexity rather than condensing the problems perceived  down to good and bad, as that position does not hold the power of change. 

Anyways, this is not trying to rub anyone in either way, but is only pointing to the need to go meta on self to be able to address the real problems, which aren't immigration-related at all, but the limitations of self to handle that uncertainty that happens when the boat get unbalanced and starts to rock. Immigration is just bringing that inherent dysfunction into light so that we can get to a point where we can address it, as individuals.

7 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

By filling their countries with RED/blue or purple/RED or even Blue immigrants we pull their center of gravity down the spiral.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this will be detrimental for the long term stage of development (COG) but rather presents such challenges that will force us to come together to face our lack of ability to handle the situation and grow from there. 

There will be a wider spread over different stages of development in the societies but handled well, it will accelerate the development of the immigration people and not noticeably regress that of then general population.

This too shall pass, we shall overcome these challenges. And we shall face new, greater challenges ahead. That is the only certainty there is. 

The main concern right now is to limit the collateral damage until such a point that we are able to come together in a more collaborative and constructive way. To do so we need to give ourselves breathing-room and time to deal with what is rather than continue adding to the existing problems, so that we can become who we need to be to help those in need.

But enough said about Sweden, we're an insignificant drop of 10 million people in the whole.

Edited by Eph75
Minor spelling corrections

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7 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Unfortunatly, in Sweden, the inability to have constructive conversations about such hot topics, on a political level, has resulted in polarization and more-or-less the ignoring of an array of negative side-effects and thus postponing actions. 

...

The mistakes made so far will have long term consequences, and those mistakes don't have to do with immigrants or racism per se but rather naivite about the need for a sustainsble short and long-term plan in terms of impact on the Swedish systems e.g. wellfare, but most prominently the absolute lack of plans in terms of what successful integration looks like.

A lot of these problems seen arise from a Swedish post-modern approach towards and inability to handle Blue value system problematics that result from a fast and large change in population dynamics.

...

These kind of things are reactions towards types of dysfunction perceived and such expressions and the underlying needs need to be acknowledge and understood for what they are, rather than seen as racism and "up coming peaks of nazism". Only then can they be addressed in ahealty and progressive way. Ignoring or dismissing these expressions just increases the pressure in the system until such a point that it depressurizes into unheatly expressions.

 

1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

It is the contradictions held within the post-modern, ethnocentric, Green vMeme values when stuck in itself, unhealthy, that is currently preventing the overcoming of itself. In a sense it is the symbolism held within thoughts that produces such symbolic [non] actions that we are experiencing in Sweden, instead of producing actions that address the actual problems that have arisen. Seemingly out of fear of having that being confused and deemed as being racist which it of course is not. Paradoxically, more so, avoiding the problems becomes polarizing, segregation and racist in itself, if one were to compare the two side-by-side, and the outcomes they produce. 

...

There will be a wider spread over different stages of development in the societies but handle well, it will accelerate the development of the immigration people and not noticably regress that of then general population.

I agree with that.

I personally think that immigration will happen (and is happening) naturally and that societies will become much more multicultural no matter what, but at the same time developed countries need to be able to handle challenges caused by immigration.

Many people that move out of their country because of difficult living conditions are mostly at stage blue which causes a clash with orange and green values. And some of them are also too low conscious for an highly developed country, and cannot be trusted. The ideal would be to have a psychological and consciousness test before immigration to see if they are conscious enough to live, evolve, and integrate in an advanced society. But almost nobody knows about spiral dynamics there's no such technology.

I think that mass immigration need to be regulated with proper systems and that countries need to limit the number of new people each year because otherwise it will overblow them.


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37 minutes ago, Raphael said:

 The ideal would be to have a psychological and consciousness test before immigration to see if they are conscious enough to live, evolve, and integrate in an advanced society. 

What you mean like a SD hunger games? 

 

If societies can build structures to support psychologically ill patients, elderly, prisoners coming back to society, surely there are structures that can be developed for bridging  individuals with different cultural backgrounds and sociological levels of development into society. The whole reason why yellows are cool is because they can build structures to get the other stages working well with each other. If you limit what stages come in, thats lame.

Edited by electroBeam

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21 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

If societies can build structures to support psychologically ill patients, elderly, prisoners coming back to society, surely there are structures that can be developed for bridging  individuals with different cultural backgrounds and sociological levels of development into society. The whole reason why yellows are cool is because they can build structures to get the other stages working well with each other.

True.

But, I'm specifically talking about the highly dogmatic ones, the more low-conscious, the ones that are not possible to change and integrate not matter what we do. A highly developed nation need to be careful to not accidentally overblown itself with such people while helping others who can evolve.

27 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

If you limit what stages come in, thats lame.

I don't think so. That's the same reason why some people are banned from this forum, if we allow too much low conscious people here this place would become a mess and die. It's a little similar with a country.


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52 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

If societies can build structures to support psychologically ill patients, elderly, prisoners coming back to society, surely there are structures that can be developed for bridging  individuals with different cultural backgrounds and sociological levels of development into society. The whole reason why yellows are cool is because they can build structures to get the other stages working well with each other. If you limit what stages come in, thats lame.

Yes, there is no particular need in having such "tests", the differences in values and morality are known already so it's more a matter of addressing what is already known, and being the best we can be at addressing new problems as the emerge, as fast as possible so that small emergent problems don't grow into large systemic phenomena.

As you say, these are Yellow traits and no society today is Green enough to allow for the stretching into Yellow a world view and such levels of systemic awareness, as the Green machine is too caught up in such post-modern contradictions still, in a sense working for change but it at the same ensuring status-quo by such limitations. 

It may be seen as dark and dystopic, but it isn't, and the discussion climate is slowly warming up, and things changing, and progressing, as things always have and will.

An interesting parallel is that of the Corona epidemic and it agitating the same structural problems, as they are structural and not exclusive to e.g. immigration. But with Corona there's no value system protecting anything, we're all against Corona and the lack of actionability and seemingly lack of high-level reasoning within government has been easier for more people to spot, and easier to hold as a thought as it's not a hot topic.

Edited by Eph75

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Far-Right propaganda. Careful what you swallow.

Identity and Democracy (French: Identité et démocratie, ID) is a far-right[7][8][9] political group of the European Parliament, launched on 13 June 2019 for the Ninth European Parliament term. It is composed of nationalist, right-wing populist and eurosceptic national parties from ten European nations. It is the successor to the Europe of Nations and Freedom group formed during the eighth term.

Edited by Rilles

How strange it is to be anything at all

 

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@Rilles Oh yes, that was likely to be the case/not surprising.

The expression from the pressure building up within a system is likely to appear on either extreme end of the spectrum, or both.

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I support immigration. Let's share some of the wealth we have in the EU! 

Besides, our population is shrinking  so we'll need more people sooner or later anyways. 

Immigration also has a positive impact on real estate prices. So, if you're a filthy rich European who owns real estate, good for you, you should support it, too :D

But, let's make sure these immigrants can actually work here. A lot of times they aren't even allowed to work or it takes years to get a permit, so they really have no other option but to engage in illegal activity. This needs to change.


Just try not to be a dick. - Buddha

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@datamonster Absolutely, this is another aspect of a dysfunctional system. Approval or denial of applied asylum must happen faster so that immigrants can begin an integration process as quickly as possible. People need to feel purpose and have a sense of usefulness. Just sitting around for years does no one good. Getting deported after years in the country due to a slow bureaucratic machine is unacceptable.

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15 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

It's a complicated topic, and i don't live in Europe, but my thoughts are as follow.

The EU is World's most developed place, and the continent where the population is higher in the SD scale, that means, in a few years it could become a breeding ground for 2 tier thinkers, who may have a chance at solving some of the world's problems.

It is sad that many countries suck right now due to past exploration by EU countries.

But the truth is, Europe doesn't help anyone in the long run by taking in more imigrants than it can handle.

By filling their countries with RED/blue or purple/RED or even Blue imigrants we pull their center of gravity down the spiral.

That way, we keep things sort of where they are, except the population will increase and we weill destroy more and more the environment.

So it's a best shot to limit immigration and do what we can to speed up the conscious development of the continent.

Untill we don't have a few powerfull governments on solid Green with at least some shades of yellow nothing is gonna get really better. And as people in third world countries reproduce like rabbits, the immigration problem will get worse and worse.

i think i mostly agree with these points

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All nationalists are inherently stupid (no exceptions), this earth is for everybody, whether they liked it or not. 

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We in Eu should try to let in only Lgbt people. That experiment has never been done yet. So let's make it so!

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@Preety_India Haha! But i am being serious. I am gay and i think many more lgbt people from around the world in EU would be something really wonderful.

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