mmKay

"Stop the EU migration pact, save EUROPE"

56 posts in this topic

@Preety_India Notice how you are reading into things based on your biases and how that disrupts and direct away from a deeper discussion emerging, which incidentally is what I was pointing to earlier, the post-modern paradox.

These discussions much too often gets shut down, just like this, on these kind of premises; people looking to hear that immigrants are e.g. associated with being criminals, wanting to make the percieved opposition out to be e.g. racist, xenophobic and against immigration by emphasizing such connections, when the need is a discussion around such as, but not limited to, that immigrants are highly over-represented in [more] serious crime (based on readily available statistical data) and how to find a way to change this. 

Notice that this does not mean that immigrants are criminals but rather that a lot of such crime is committed by immigrants. This is nowhere a racist claim, nor is it a right-wing expression. These connection are biased, even though such claims may be, and are, emphasize by right-wing people, they still are not right-wing claims. 

The result is that crucial discussions that are so deeply need cannot happen and the discussion gets diverted away from the issue(s) at hand and into grid-lock situations.

By leaning into the discussion and helping it forward by adding perspective, and gaining perspective, and through healthy discussion and collaboration, allows for getting at the core of problem(s). 

In this post-modern paradox where the post-modernists defence of the immigrants, based on ethnocentric values, the contradiction lies in the inability to facilitate and help that very discussions to happen, by appearing to be the protectors of values and expressions of people, yet only accepting the importance of values and expression of one group [immigrants] while cancelling/negating the importance of values and expression of another group [priviledged white people]. 

The effective result is that the problems keep growing which leads to increased friction within the system, and thus leads to increasing intolerance towards the phenomenon. The immigrants become the victims in this equation, while the critique is mainly against our own system and our inabilities. 

There is a sense of there being a need and expectation not to meet the opposition in discussion and collaboration, in such sense that it would be equivalent to agreeing to and adopting the perspectives, or part of the perspectives that the opposition hold.

Stretching oneself into constructive conversations around difficult topics will allow post-modernism Green to stretch towards growing towards and into Yellow, overcoming the unhealthy expression that prevents that development from happening.

The best we, all of us, can do is to promote the introduction of such discussions and put collaboration into focus, and also actively help shifting people towards having outcome-oriented mindset where the focus is positive-action-orientation rather than focused on the differences in opinion that we hold.

We need such Yellow catalyzers to help facilitate these discussions and add the guidence that is needed, so that the negative side-effects from a Green-Orange or Green-Blue clash is minimized and positive outcomes can be maximize through actionability that addressesdifficult problems and the challenges in order to impact those at the core. 

Food for thought - how can you help; help yourself to help that discussion to become productive?

 

 

 

Edited by Eph75

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@Eph75 if you see biases in my thought then those who are skeptical about immigrants are equally biased if not more. 

 

Edited by Preety_India

Create your own life system. 

Preety preety

And then my dear, you can take a bath in suds. 

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@Preety_India

Drumroll..

We're all biased, based on our value system, which is greatly dictated by our level of development, which is dictating what we are able to percieve, which is dictating the range of action that are available to us and which we sensibly can pursue. 

This is irrelevant from an outcome driven perspective, which is about making a dent in that which is percieved as a problem. The more meta, structural and systemic level this can be effectively addressed at, the greater impact and change potential there is. 

The more gridlocks are created around difference focus, the more content fixation is being exercised and the lesser or no impact is made. Potential is negligable and time is wasted as the problems are allowed to  grow in the meantime. 

Effectively more harm is likely to be added to the system than good. 

But it's not really about exercising value systemic dogma in an ideological way judging whose perspective is right(er), i.e. always "mine" and whose is wrong(er), i.e. always "yours". You will always see the other as "more biased" and you will always see yourself as "more objective". This is the essence of self-deception. 

Is there a problem? Yes, what that problem is, that is what needs to be explored. It can be readily available, such as mentioned crime and we all want less crime, but it could be hidden in forms of unmet needs, e.g. as fear of culture as we know it changing over time, fear of change, fear of losing something or fear of becoming more of that which the immigrants are trying to escape from. The way forward is to better understand the problem in a less biased, more subjectively objective way, so that effective actions can work the problems.

Does it feel bad or wrong to accept that you, just as everyone else, are biased?

Gaining greater awareness of ones own biases allows for navigating self, so that we better can navigate others, into helping themselves navigate their own biases.

Edited by Eph75

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I mean even part of the far right in Europe is not against immigration, that is not the problem most people have with it.

What most are against is :

-Mass immigration.
-Illegal/uncontrolled immigration.
-Confusing migrants with refugees.
-Migrants/Refugees refusing to integrate.
-Incomparable values resulting in social unrest.
-Ideological politicians acting as if nothing is going on.

Edited by Yog
typo

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@Yog  it has nothing to do with mass immigration, legal immigration refugees, or integration. It's all about ethnonationalism. Watch Carl Benjamin discussion with Vaush 

Vaush exposes right wing motives. 

 


Create your own life system. 

Preety preety

And then my dear, you can take a bath in suds. 

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@Preety_India Hm. It is, in part.

But do you see how mass immigration and diversity to the point of minimal overlap activates dormant/sleeper ethno-nationalism in people, many of whom are not right wingers ? Right wing motives are a result/effect of this, not a creator. They serve more as an amplifier, not a generator. I feel like many left wingers put the horse before the cart when it comes to this question.

I'll watch the video anyway, Vaush can have good points at times.

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On 02/12/2020 at 6:34 PM, PurpleTree said:

Love it and agreed

Thank you :) 


“If you are irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?” - Rumi.

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11 hours ago, Preety_India said:

@Yog  it has nothing to do with mass immigration, legal immigration refugees, or integration. It's all about ethnonationalism. Watch Carl Benjamin discussion with Vaush 

Vaush exposes right wing motives. 

 

Yes yes, it it always because of racism, there just can't be any other reasons, everyone is racists and so on, everything is fine, there are no problems beside it. 

Only thing Vaush can expose is how stupid he is, he should go out of his house once in a while. 

 

Edited by Claymoree

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Hard to say what should be weighted more; The flexibility of each country to decide how many immigrants they want to take in or the power of commitment from all the countries together. Chances are that some countries wont be able to handle the increased inflow of people, which could in turn and over time create a situation like we have seen in Sweden. At the same time, chances also are that countries which by now is not doing anywhere near what they could do, will be obligated to take care of way more immigrants and also be able to integrate them. 

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11 hours ago, mmKay said:

SO this is still going on. Thoughts?

https://www.saveurope.eu/

I don't get it. 10k signatures and "they" stop immigration. Is that the deal lol.

it looks to me, that in order for something like this to succeed, you'll need to get humongous amount of signatures per country.

Something in the scope of a referendum. Which will ofc need some heavy marketing and cash.

Or am i missing something and being stupid ?

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Whats to get? Its far-right propaganda, Im surprised Leo hasnt locked this already.


How strange it is to be anything at all

 

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@Preety_India

On 30.11.2020 at 10:10 PM, Preety_India said:

I don't think migration is as big a deal as it is made out to be. 

Paranoia of the masses. Maybe they don't have better things to focus on 

Bad feelings towards immigrants usually result from plain racism and has little to do with fear of losing cultural identity. 

A few million migrants and immigrants is not going to make any difference. 

It's literally insane level of ethno nationalism that is growing in the West. Reminds me of the Third Reich. 

It's closed minded, low consciousness and Stage Blue mentality gone amok. 

I predict a second peak in Nazism in Europe in the coming decades. 

Hogwash 

Who else is stoking these anti-people fears and paranoia other than the paranoid Right wing media?

That's just such a naive and inappropriate position, sorry. I live in Germany and since 2015 we took almost 2 million refugees.

And it makes a difference, I can tell you that.

When around 2% of the population more or less suddenly consists of completely foreign cultures which completely different values, it influences society on many, many levels, it also influences politics, both left and right, it influences the economy, etc. Even a country as stable and rich as Germany is troubled by something like that. 

On 30.11.2020 at 10:10 PM, Preety_India said:

Reminds me of the Third Reich.

Well then I strongly suggest you educate yourself on the 3rd Reich a bit more. You can't compare it with today's nationalists, that's grossly inflationary. Actual Nazis as they lived 80 years ago were absolutely ready and eager to kill and annihilate anybody who didn't fit their NS raciology. That's not how your average nationalist of 2021 who rants about foreigners while drinking at his local pub thinks. These people aren't even close to Nazis.

I can only agree with those here who emphasized that it's a very complex topic, because it really is a big deal.


"Love is all that I can give to you ❤ Love is more than just a game for two!"

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErVP6xLZwg 

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This is a typical problem with green. It is impossible to get real and rational about an issue as they get emotionally blinded and someone has to be the villain.

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On 1.12.2020 at 8:20 AM, Yog said:

This was an alright watch. It also looks fairly unbiased.
 

What is for you "fairy unbiased"? Do you find it´s ok to interview and broadcast the racists?

RT (Russia Today) moves constantly the limits of what is acceptable in out society and what is not. For me racism is not acceptible and no way unbiased.

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