Zen Master vs Psychedelics

[Vagos]

Would you agree that a Zen Master is extremely unlikely to have a bad trip ?

In the sense that a true Zen Master would not project a negative connotation to any experience and would therefore surf on any possible experience and enjoy it for what it is without having any investments as to how he or she likes it to unfold. 

[Hellspeed]

I don't know, in my experience i never had a bad trip. Only the first time i took cannabis almost a decade ago. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Zen master doesn't need psychedelics or thought.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

@Vagos ya.

[Samra]

Would a Zen master even have a trip? The mind would be so present that even the trip become ordinary. Maybe ? 

[Joseph Maynor]

5 hours ago, Samra said:

Would a Zen master even have a trip? The mind would be so present that even the trip become ordinary. Maybe ? 

Being doesn't need thought or a trip.

[Recursoinominado]

https://www.ramdass.org/ram-dass-gives-maharaji-the-yogi-medicine/

" To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this.”

The story about the time Ram Dass gave 1200ug of LSD to his guru.

[Vagos]

17 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Being doesn't need thought or a trip.

Agreed but what does that have to do with the question? I'm asking something practical. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Vagos

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Vagos said:

Agreed but what does that have to do with the question? I'm asking something practical. 

Why would you assume a Zen Master is any different from you or any regular person?

[outlandish]

6 hours ago, Vagos said:

Would you agree that a Zen Master is extremely unlikely to have a bad trip ?

Yes I would agree for sure. 

On a related note, there was an informal poll put out I think by Tricycle magazine some time ago, and IIRC, it found that while most modern western zen monks don't encourage people to take psychedelics, most of them had in fact taken them at some point, and for many of them it was an acid trip that sent them down that path in the first place. It's a controversial thing, and it definitely mostly meets disapproval in western zen buddhism, and there's definitely no formal place for it in the practice, but it's hard to deny that "it's around" at least in the past for many monastics' lives.

17 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

https://www.ramdass.org/ram-dass-gives-maharaji-the-yogi-medicine/

" To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this.”

The story about the time Ram Dass gave 1200ug of LSD to his guru.

This legend has been well questioned. Many people say the dude just palmed the acid and never really took it. If he did actually take, it would definitely be possible for an experienced meditator to sit it out and feel like it did nothing, or claim that at least. Psychedelics are just an extremely powerful placebo after all.

[Highest]

Someone already conscious of God will become FULLY conscious. I have to take lsd very soon. I know I will die (full ego death) and that is what I want and hope for.

[Scholar]

 

42 minutes ago, outlandish said:

Psychedelics are just an extremely powerful placebo after all.

What do you mean by that?

[outlandish]

@Scholar it's kind of in jest, but it's something I've heard other people say too, and there's some truth to it. The thing is that psychedelics are essentially content-free, and you get out of them what you put in. They don't specifically do anything to your mind, and sometimes while tripping it can be pretty hard to put your finger on what it is exactly that's different. Psychedelics can be compared a hi-fi, hi-res amplifier for your mind, so if your mind is fully empty and neutral in meditation, you've just got silence turned up all the way, with no added noise floor.

[Vagos]

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Why would you assume a Zen Master is any different from you or any regular person?

I don't understand what you mean... Because they have a much different psychology and a much different way of seeing life. Wouldn't you expect that psychedelics work way differently on a depressed and shy person than on a hyperactive social extrovert? In the same sense I believe they work much differently on a zen master than on the average Joe. 

[Gabriel Antonio]

Zen masters are still human beings, dude... 

[kieranperez]

I disagree. As far as I’m concerned, I think Zen Masters can still be impressed and also shocked by the depth of psychedelics. Zen masters also don’t really address things like repressed shadows and certain psychological issues that well (a lot of Ken Wilber’s discoveries and breakthroughs have been in filling in that gap) and I think psychedelics can really be powerful in opening up those missed issues that a lot of meditative traditions just don’t address all that well and all that accurately. I think psychedelics in that light for a Zen master can hit them and shock them in terms of that which can lead to a “bad trip”. 

It also depends on what stage on the spiral you’re talking about when you say “Zen master”. Zen masters in Japan are really Blue so I think psychedelics can maybe undermine some of that depending on how it’s used.

Tricky question. Tricky answer. 

[Tony 845]

Ram das said once he gave his guru LSD & he was completely un fased by it...

not sure how true it is ?‍♂️

[tecladocasio]

If he's enlightened I think is Impossible to have a bad trip .

[Vagos]

Just now, kieranperez said:

I disagree. As far as I’m concerned, I think Zen Masters can still be impressed and also shocked by the depth of psychedelics. Zen masters also don’t really address things like repressed shadows and certain psychological issues that well (a lot of Ken Wilber’s discoveries and breakthroughs have been in filling in that gap) and I think psychedelics can really be powerful in opening up those missed issues that a lot of meditative traditions just don’t address all that well and all that accurately. I think psychedelics in that light for a Zen master can hit them and shock them in terms of that which can lead to a “bad trip”. 

It also depends on what stage on the spiral you’re talking about when you say “Zen master”. Zen masters in Japan are really Blue so I think psychedelics can maybe undermine some of that depending on how it’s used.

Tricky question. Tricky answer. 

Good point. I was definitely talking about people that are deeply into Turqoise

[Forestluv]

 

On 2/26/2019 at 6:15 AM, Vagos said:

Would you agree that a Zen Master is extremely unlikely to have a bad trip ?

It depends on what you consider to be a "bad" trip.

An evaluation of "good" or "bad" would necessitate a contextualization of the mind-body experience. Without that context, the question cannot be answered.

For example, an aspect of psychedelics is that distinctions dissolve. Here judgments to distinguish between "good" and "bad" dissolves. After the experience, duality returns and the mind can make judgments and adds "good" and "bad" labels to an experience in which "good" and "bad" did not exist. This is true for sober experiences as well, yet it is much more dramatic with psychedelic trips because the mechanism can get disabled. If the mechanism is only partially disabled, there can be a struggle to maintain control. This can induce feelings of anxiety in the mind-body.