JohnnyRocket

Jordan Peterson

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I'm reading Jordan Peterson's, "Maps of Meaning" and just watched the first lecture of his, "Biblical Series I: Introduction to the Idea of God". Which I thought was amazing.

I have also recently finished Leo's latest and very profound video on, "Similarities and Differences" and have been watching Leo's videos for 2-3 yrs now.

I honestly see many more similarities than differences in what each man is saying. Perhaps they are taking things from a slightly different perspective, but the message seems to be the same to me. 

Leo, apparently doesn't see much similarity between Peterson and himself. In fact, is quite critical of him. I have developed quite a fondness of both and find their messages quite compatible.

 Where am I going wrong?

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Differences that I see:

Leo sympathizes with socialism and Peterson does not.

Peterson is way too analytical about biblical text and like to spend too much time philosophizing. Leo does this but he seems to value direct consciousness work more so.

Leo trips and Peterson does not.

Peterson is focused on the map and Leo is focused on the territory.

 

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@JohnnyRocket The biggest issue when it comes to Peterson and God is, you are never going to find God listening to him because he himself does not understand what God is.

God is precisely not a map or a meaning.

Peterson's work is what keeps him from discovering God.

His intuition is right that God is worth seeking. But he does not understand how to realize God because he's stuck in orthodox Christian notions of God, which are extremely misleading.

And then his silly politics stems from that.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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What’s weird is I hear quite a bit of the same tone but in both, especially the older Leo videos.  Same kinda preachy, ranty tone. I’m not trying to make Leo sound bad, so don’t get your panties in a twist here.  But oftentimes we don’t like those who have similar qualities to ourselves.  It’s like holding up a mirror to your shadow-side.  

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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Tone is the least of JP problems.

The deep structural issue is that he is programming his fans with stage Blue mentality, against Green. It stifles movement up the Spiral, which is what's necessary for people to find God. So he's shooting his own fans in the foot.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Just now, Leo Gura said:

Tone is the least of JP problems.

logic

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Fair enough, he still sound a lot like a part of your dark side, or maybe your old dark side then !

what about everyone is everything ? isn't peterson a part of you that you deny ?

the only things that makes me cringe in your video is your own mirror agenda, maybe he has this "orange side" but you can't deny he has lot of yellow aswell in his mind. ( I'll not believe in spiral as truthness tool though, it's like IQ in a society, you believe your own archetypal of IQ, your is called spiral dynamics .. can you see ? )

maybe lot of us are still orange, but still lot your green sides makes you a bit of a biased idealist.

my 2 cent, but talking about "god" makes a christian assumption, you should as nietzshe and create your own word for talking of your own concept

never use the word god would be better in the futur maybe for your credibility ( from my frequency view point )

Edited by Strikr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sbw__MsJZ0

We know nothing, and even, I m not sure. a.V.e

 

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9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Tone is the least of JP problems.

The deep structural issue is that he is programming his fans with stage Blue mentality, against Green. It stifles movement up the Spiral, which is what's necessary for people to find God. So he's shooting his own fans in the foot.

I would say he's programming his fans with orange mentality which is why his message resonates so much with a lot of people these days (in our predominantly orange culture). Of course there are blue elements here and there but I wouldn't say he's programming his fans with blue :) If anything, he's vehemently against blue seeing how he cockrides "the individual" so much haha - pure orange!

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@RendHeaven It's an odd mix of Blue/Orange.

On the one hand he rails against collectivism, on the other hand he is against porn, for traditionalist values, and for sexual Marxism.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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@Strikr God is a Christian assumption?

Lol

Spiral Dynamics describes JP and his fans perfectly.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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8 hours ago, Feel Good said:

People are wasting precious time talking about Jordan Peterson. 

That's it. 

No more to say on the matter.

This is how much I care about Peterson. 

6 lines. 

Oi at least give him 7 lines bro

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@omTom @SgtPepper I like Peterson when he talks about psychology. After listening to Peterson a bit, I feel can read bible chapters and already figure out the message that Jordan Peterson would give from his interpretation. That's not an insult to him, its just observation. 

Over the last century, societal attitudes in the West towards religion have gotten worse. Thus society has gotten more secular and people are seeing the vacuosness social customs and traditions.

From evolving out of blue and into orange, we now experience a new set of problems. For all the problems of religion, religion gave people a sense of community and structure in their lives which kept them happy. You knew where you were going. But now we have many young men who feel isolated, lazy, nihilistic and unmotivated in life. It is this problem that Jordan Peterson wishes to address this. 

However, I have a problem with how Jordan Peterson wishes to address this problem. His social/political message to people is that life is meaningful, and therefore you must take responsibility. He's saying that the premise that life is meaningful at the level of the individual will lead to fulfillment. He says that whilst nihilism is intellectually valid it will leave you miserable. A spiritual vacuum has been created with the abandonment of religion. 

Jordan Peterson essentially argues you can find meaning and fulfillment  in life through pushing yourself to the limit in the pursuit for mastery/success in life. There is meaning in pursuing your art, meaning in facing your fears, meaning in raising your family and etc. When pushing yourself to the limit, you're at the border between "order and chaos" as he calls it. 

I semi-agree with him here. Finding something to immerse yourself in brings fulfillment. My critique of Jordan Peterson is that his message ignores how to solve core problem, and so his advice will not directly lead to people becoming truly self actualized at all. What I mean by this is that I don't think his message in isolation is effective at getting people motivated. The only real solution I see is for people to do meditation/yoga. 

Peterson neurotically clings to the existence of meaning, neurotically clings to the existence of good and evil. If people want to really develop themselves, they need to learn to accept the present moment for what it is. People need to embrace the nihilism and grow from it, not sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist. 

That being said, there is definitely value in what Jordan Peterson says in when he encourages people to find their craft and master it. 

Off the top of my head I can't articulate the exact details but Peterson spreads the idea that we must, in a subtle yet influential way, have a society that is embedded with religious and traditional values. I'm probably doing Peterson's opinion a disservice here, but he's essentially spreading high quality blue mixed in with orange. 

With the new problems we are facing, Peterson wishes to look backwards for the solution whilst I wish to look forwards. That's the way I see it. 

As a side note though, I enjoy listening to Peterson talk. I sense a unique and somewhat quirky style in the sentences he constructs. Peterson is right in saying that myths and stories certainly hold lessons worth thinking about.

Edited by lmfao

Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough

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9 hours ago, Feel Good said:

People are wasting precious time talking about Jordan Peterson. 

That's it. 

No more to say on the matter.

This is how much I care about Peterson. 

6 lines. 

You nailed it!  Take what's useful to you from Peterson, leave what's not.

1 line.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

firstphilosophy.org

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@Leo Gura Isn't Jp a very "moralizing" example of person ? He is losing the meaning of spirituality I think.

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18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@RendHeaven It's an odd mix of Blue/Orange.

On the one hand he rails against collectivism, on the other hand he is against porn, for traditionalist values, and for sexual Marxism.

On one hand being against porn could be considered Blue, on the other hand it could be considered a Turquoise value. The Buddha and the Bhagavad Gita speak extensively about avoiding lust on the path to truth. Then again it's not being "against" porn as much as suggesting you should avoid it if you can. Blue seeks to censor and ban porn. The higher spiral dynamics levels tend to avoid it on a personal level. 

Also, JP has been heavily misquoted with that "enforced monogamy" bit. He doesn't want to enforce anything, he wants freedom. On the other hand, he has personal values he feels will help society. Sadhguru is also a proponent of monogamy. Does this make him stage Blue?

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8 hours ago, hundreth said:

On one hand being against porn could be considered Blue, on the other hand it could be considered a Turquoise value. The Buddha and the Bhagavad Gita speak extensively about avoiding lust on the path to truth. Then again it's not being "against" porn as much as suggesting you should avoid it if you can. Blue seeks to censor and ban porn. The higher spiral dynamics levels tend to avoid it on a personal level. 

Also, JP has been heavily misquoted with that "enforced monogamy" bit. He doesn't want to enforce anything, he wants freedom. On the other hand, he has personal values he feels will help society. Sadhguru is also a proponent of monogamy. Does this make him stage Blue?

I agree with your premise that avoiding porn can fall on any color of the spectrum, but JP certainly isn't approaching it from a turquoise perspective. He believes in MORALS and RESPONSIBILITY which are great within a certain context, but JP lets those things run his life. He's against all the rules that don't serve him, but he clings to the rules that do serve him. His new book? 12 rules for life. Lol. So much for freedom... no, he's definitely a fan of restraints but what he does is he chooses very carefully what he believes to be the RIGHT restraints. In a dualistic world, that works wonderfully handy dandy. But it doesn't serve Truth. If you're on a spiritual journey, that's a big no-no.

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11 hours ago, PhilGR said:

@Leo Gura Isn't Jp a very "moralizing" example of person ? He is losing the meaning of spirituality I think.

Yes, that's one of the problems with his whole system. Same with Sam Harris.

For JP, that comes from his Blue traditionalist Christian values. Christianity is traditionally very moralistic, which is a classic case of shooting their followers in the foot.

Someone like JP cannot accept the deeper truth that all morality is a human invention and that to be truly Good you must abandon all moral ideologies. A truly conscious person does not moralize because he's conscious that evil literally does not exist and that ALL is Good so there is nothing to moralize about. Moralization is something the ego does. And you can clearly see Peterson falling into this trap with respect to the post-modernism, socialism, and stage Green as a whole.

A classic Christian, stage Blue, conservative trap.

The very reason that JP is fighting against post-modernism is because stage Green's relativism undermines all transitional notions of good vs evil. Which is correct! Those notions are human inventions! But JP does not want to bite that bullet and pass through post-modern nihilism to more advanced stages of morality, which are based on consciousness, not human ideas of good vs evil. JP feels that to admit to relativity is to open Pandora's box of chaos. Stage Blue fears chaos (stage Red). Which is why the subtitle of his book literally expresses his fear:

Quote

12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos

But this fear must be surrendered to, not fought against. Stage Green is not chaos, it's just a new, higher kind of order.

Stage Blue creates rules to keep itself from sliding into chaos. Stage Blue becomes the anal-retentive rulekeeper stereotype, which leads to all sorts of neuroses (which are well-hidden from public view through suppression).

JP has created a public identity out of fighting against chaos. Which is precisely just his own shadow.

The profound irony is that JP hasn't cleaned his own room. Which is why he's acting out in public.

The mind is a tricky beast. Especially the mind of an intellectual.

"The better the model, the bigger the problem."

Everything that's happening to JP is predicted by Spiral Dynamics, if one would just bother to study it closely. When it comes to people's behaviors and ideological positions, there's little new under the sun. There's nothing original about how conservatives behave or think. It's very robotic. Predictable like clockwork. In fact, they pride themselves on that.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Stage Green is not chaos, it's just a new, higher kind of order.

@Leo Gura How is it a higher kind of order? Is it better at establishing stability? Higher in Spiral Dynamics?

Edited by CreamCat

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26 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Leo Gura How is it a higher kind of order? Is it better at establishing stability? Higher in Spiral Dynamics?

Well green is more or less "born" out of resistance to orange. What puts it "above" orange (and blue) is that it is able to see the flaws of an orange mentality... for example, someone in stage orange is blind to the idea that a paradigm shift could possibly even be an option.

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