Leo Gura

Spiral Dynamics Stage Blue Examples Mega-Thread

1,315 posts in this topic

 


"Buddhism is for losers and those who will die one day."

                                                                                            -- Kenneth Folk

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On 9/2/2020 at 1:22 PM, Bernardo Carleial said:

I will have to disagree with you on that regard. What happened is that Raskolnikov (the main character) was actually able to see the limitations of vMEME Blue, but he didn't know how to integrate it properly and transcend it into vMEME ORANGE. And because of that (also the fact that he had some money issues) what happened is  that he regresses into vMEME Red and ends up killing a person. And the rest of the book is him trying to make sense of all that...

Another point is that Dostoyevsky was anything but vMEME Blue. In his novels he is very critical about the way society was structured at his time (in 19th century Russia, which was very Blue and Red). He himself was exiled to Siberia to do forced labor.

I highly recommend everyone to go read this book. I'm glad you brought that up @DocWatts ! Sorry if I've been too harsh in my commentary, that wasn't my intention.??

Hey it's all good, I'm always more than happy to talk about literary works I enjoy, and enjoy hearing different perspectives on this stuff.

Dostoyevsky himself was an interesting case. While early in his life he was a left wing reformer who protested authoritarian rule in Russia (and his earlier work reflected this), his arrest in the brutal tzarist penal system (including a mock execution), broke him emotionally and spiritually, so he turned to religion to pick up the pieces, so to speak. So I suppose you could argue that he was closer to Orange at one stage of his life, but due to trauma regressed back to Blue, where he stayed at the rest of his life.

What's even more interesting is that you can see his knowledge of the Orange worldview reflected in the character Ivan in the Brothers Karamozov, who's a nuanced take on Orange (and the most interesting character in the book). Ivan ends up going insane from having a lack of belief in a higher power after the guilt of believing that his brother murdered thier father. Meanwhile the highly religious stage Blue character Alayosha is the most positively portrayed character in the whole book.

 

As for Crime and Punishment, I believe the work is meant as a retort to a Nietzcheien (Red) worldview, with Napoleon Bonaparte in particular in the crosshairs. The work shows how self destructive a Red 'beyond good and evil' mindset is, as the main character cannot escape the guilt of the murders he commits, and attempting to avoid responsibility ultimately proves to be self destructive; he ends up turning himself in to the authorities, and accepting a sentence of hard labor for his crimes. Guilt and obedience to lawful authority are pillars of Blue. The fact that he tried and failed to transcend Blue and regressed back in to Red in the way you mention strikes me as true, and something I haven't considered.

Of course if you see Nietzsche's worldview as Orange rather than Red (as I argue it's a nuanced power fantasy philosophy by a man who lacked agency in his own life), I could see how you would have a different interpretation of the work in question.

It was interesting to hear your take on it, might have to give it another read one of these days.

 

Edited by DocWatts
Spelling, clarity

I'm writing a philosophy book! Check it out at : https://7provtruths.org/

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from 5:55 in particular 


"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it" -Rumi

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7 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Hey it's all good, I'm always more than happy to talk about literary works I enjoy, and enjoy hearing different perspectives on this stuff.

Dostoyevsky himself was an interesting case. While early in his life he was a left wing reformer who protested authoritarian rule in Russia (and his earlier work reflected this), his arrest in the brutal tzarist penal system (including a mock execution), broke him emotionally and spiritually, so he turned to religion to pick up the pieces, so to speak. So I suppose you could argue that he was closer to Orange at one stage of his life, but due to trauma regressed back to Blue, where he stayed at the rest of his life.

What's even more interesting is that you can see his knowledge of the Orange worldview reflected in the character Ivan in the Brothers Karamozov, who's a nuanced take on Orange (and the most interesting character in the book). Ivan ends up going insane from having a lack of belief in a higher power after the guilt of believing that his brother murdered thier father. Meanwhile the highly religious stage Blue character Alayosha is the most positively portrayed character in the whole book.

 

As for Crime and Punishment, I believe the work is meant as a retort to a Nietzcheien (Red) worldview, with Napoleon Bonaparte in particular in the crosshairs. The work shows how self destructive a Red 'beyond good and evil' mindset is, as the main character cannot escape the guilt of the murders he commits, and attempting to avoid responsibility ultimately proves to be self destructive; he ends up turning himself in to the authorities, and accepting a sentence of hard labor for his crimes. Guilt and obedience to lawful authority are pillars of Blue. The fact that he tried and failed to transcend Blue and regressed back in to Red in the way you mention strikes me as true, and something I haven't considered.

Of course if you see Nietzsche's worldview as Orange rather than Red (as I argue it's a nuanced power fantasy philosophy by a man who lacked agency in his own life), I could see how you would have a different interpretation of the work in question.

It was interesting to hear your take on it, might have to give it another read one of these days.

 

Interesting take on Dostoyevsky's story. I haven't taken that in consideration, thank you for elucidating that @DocWatts.

As for "Crime and Punishment". I still take the same position that I've had before. Take the epilogue for example: even after confessing his crime and being sent to Siberia, he still sees himself as superior than the other prisoners and do not understand why they're picking on him, the only moment when he settled down was when he finds out that he's in love with Sonya.

As for Nietzsche... well... he is complicated. I see him as a "malfunctioning vMEME Orange". The reason why I say he is malfunctioning is because of his life story: due to a lot of trauma and mental disorder he developed a lot of hiccups on the vMEME Blue, which in turn he reacts against it very often by regressing into vMEME Red. Ken Wilber describes this behavior as being "An allergy" to a particular stage.

I would love to continue the conversation with you but I think this is getting beyond the scope of this thread. If you like we can message each other up or create another topic that talks about similar concepts. That would be cool!?? take care.?

 

 

Edited by Bernardo Carleial

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3 minutes ago, Bernardo Carleial said:

Interesting take on Dostoyevsky's story. I haven't take that in consideration, thank you for elucidating that @DocWatts.

As for "Crime and Punishment". I still take the same position that I've had before. Take the epilogue for example: even after confessing his crime and being sent to Siberia, he still sees himself as superior than the other prisoners and do not understand why they're picking on him, the only moment when he settled down was when he finds out that he's in love with Sonya.

As for Nietzsche... well... he is complicated. I see him as a "malfunctioning vMEME Orange". The reason why I say he is malfunctioning is because of his life story: due to a lot of trauma and mental disorder he developed a lot of hiccups on the vMEME Blue, which in turn he reacts against it very often by regressing into vMEME Red. Ken Wilber describes this behavior as being "An allergy" to a particular stage.

I would love to continue the conversation with you but I think this is getting beyond the scope of this thread. If you like we can message each other up or create another topic that talks about similar concepts. That woul be cool!?? take care.?

 

 

Yeah for sure man, would be happy to.


I'm writing a philosophy book! Check it out at : https://7provtruths.org/

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Truly inspiring life story, incredible storyteller. This guy taught Gordon Ramsay btw.

00:00 - 15:50 - Stage blue

15:50 - 24:12 - Stage orange (aspiring)

24:12 - 43:33 - Stage orange (mastery)

43:33 - 59:40 - Stage green

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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Excellent insight into the Blue worldview from Pastor Sempa

Edited by TheAlchemist

"Only that which can change can continue."

-James P. Carse

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On 7/29/2020 at 6:11 PM, Husseinisdoingfine said:

@Leo Gura Aright Leo, you seemed to like the last time I posted peak blue

Now get ready for more P E A K E S T B L U E

Everyone, help me post more P E A K B L U E and label it as such

Damn, I got so brainwashed by the yellow-turquoise+ values, I sometimes forget where I am living

Edited by Hello from Russia

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Flanders = prototypical stage Blue dweeb.

Can't stand him.

 

 


I'm not friendly.

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This and all the replies to it ?

Gotta scare away the Moslems with the union Jacks and bacon 


"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it" -Rumi

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2 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

Screen Shot 2020-09-08 at 1.16.30 PM.png

Santa sounds like a child murderer that lists and kills children that irritates him.

Edited by VerballyHazardous

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@VerballyHazardous I find it hilarious that this mirrors what people get indoctrinated with in most religions. Santa here is a very good depiction of what I was told about God as a kid.

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You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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