Jordan B Peterson On Mindfulness

[Esoteric]

So I think Jordan is an interesting figure. Obviously really intelligent with a great verbal ability and a lot of knowledge when it comes to psychology, mythology etc. A good role model for a lot of lost men out there. Though, I was surprised to see his stance on mindfulness, saying it is just a fad. Also linking a study on his facebook page that says that mindfulness helps women but not men (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/04/20/mindfulness-helps-women-not-men-first-study-suggests/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw)

Now for that study, it appears that the people are rookies and are signing up to a 12 week class. So obviously it can be rough in the beginning to see any results. It can take months or even years before you truly reap the benefits of it. Though I am surprised that a very spiritual and intelligent person like Peterson didn't take that into consideration.

What are your thoughts about this? Discuss.

[Visionary]

My thoughts on this? Who gives a shit what Peterson thinks. Try it. Only way to find out. The guy is apparently very narrow minded with regard to this. And does not even take into consideration, that his opinion can influence millions to NOT do these practices (yes, people are that stupid).

 

[Esoteric]

7 minutes ago, Visionary said:

My thoughts on this? Who gives a shit what Peterson thinks. Try it. Only way to find out. The guy is apparently very narrow minded with regard to this. And does not even take into consideration, that his opinion can influence millions to NOT do these practices (yes, people are that stupid).

 

Well if it can influence millions of people to not start meditating then maybe you should care about this? Also, he doesn't come off as narrow-minded to me, that's why it is surprising to see his stance on this. Sure he have some arrogance and can be a bit judge-y here and there. Maybe he thinks it feminizes men or something.

[Leo Gura]

You can only expect so much from your academics. Don't expect them to be mystics. It's hazardous to their careers.

[Socrates]

@Leo Gura I would love to hear your opinion about the books Peterson suggests https://jordanbpeterson.com/2017/03/great-books/

[SOUL]

Yes, it's just a fad that's been going on for thousands of years....and his opinion of it is a fart in a tornado.

[hundreth]

I really like Jordan Peterson and he's a brilliant guy with many thought provoking ideas - but this study doesn't really prove anything.

So two groups meditated over 41 hours and the guys feel worse. Could it simply be men and women process thoughts and emotions differently?

[AxelK]

Peterson has my respects for standing up to these horrible SJWs, but his mind seems very limited in the context of taking in information that does not correspond with his paradigm and worldview. He seems obsessed with marxists, postmodernists and religion. I would listen to him only if i was interested in learning traditional, mainstream information. His ego seems to be in the way for him to accept new and radically different information.

 

Just my two cents, i might have read him wrong, but this is my impression of him having watched some of his lectures and a good amount of interviews.

Edited July 9, 2017 by AxelK

[gleb]

Very surprised to hear this. Jordan Peterson seems like a deep thinker and articulates intense topics fairly easily. But I guess that doesn't mean he's not susceptible to paradigm lock. His work revolves around transmission and analyzing ideas after all. It's probably pretty easy to get lost in them ;). 

Additionally, he's a clinical psychologist in the West. It makes sense that he would lean toward integration/strengthening of ego rather than dissolving it considering he's been immersed in the field that promotes that for many years. 

Regardless, I love the work he does. Definitely a good role model for younger men in my opinion. His grounding and confidence in himself is nearly tangible when I watch his lectures. I would love to meet the man in person. 

 

[Visionary]

4 hours ago, Esoteric said:

Well if it can influence millions of people to not start meditating then maybe you should care about this? Also, he doesn't come off as narrow-minded to me, that's why it is surprising to see his stance on this. Sure he have some arrogance and can be a bit judge-y here and there. Maybe he thinks it feminizes men or something.

Feminizes men? So you mean men are more in contact with their emotions and their feminine side? Probably the best thing that could happen to men. And of course i care about those millions. Mindfulness has not only helped me with my problems, but so so so much more. So who cares what Peterson says? If ya get me.

[Esoteric]

3 minutes ago, Visionary said:

Feminizes men? So you mean men are more in contact with their emotions and their feminine side? Probably the best thing that could happen to men. And of course i care about those millions. Mindfulness has not only helped me with my problems, but so so so much more. So who cares what Peterson says? If ya get me.

Well I don't know how familiar you are with Peterson, but a big part of what he wants to achieve with his lectures is to bring back healthy masculinity into the western culture. Hence why I said that. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with him (I disagree with him on a lot of things). Yeah, I get what you are saying. Again, I was just surprised by it, because he does talk about mystics and artists in a positive light. He also talks a fair bit about shamanism and psychedelics with an open mind, so for him to say mindfulness is a fad and that he links to a flawed study is just surprising because he does not come across as ignorant and usually has a lot of knowledge before tackling a specific topic.

 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Socrates said:

@Leo Gura I would love to hear your opinion about the books Peterson suggests https://jordanbpeterson.com/2017/03/great-books/

Some decent books on there, but just scanning over the list, I can see it will be way too academic and get you very little actual growth.

Following some academics is great, but don't get too carried away with them. They are ultimately lost in mind, and their entire careers and livelihoods hinge on that, so they will not lead you very far in your own development, because if they were far in their own development, they would stop being academics.

Sounds harsh of me to say, but it's just the practical reality of current academia. You will not find happiness there.

Crusading against postmodernists (or anyone for that matter) is the red flag here. Conscious people do not crusade.

[Loreena]

@Esoteric Its incredibly narrow minded for him to say that given the well-known benefits of mindfulness. 

If you wish to know in detail you could refer to Jon Kabat Zinn. This guy has a lot to say on the subject. 

Just because somebody is regarded intelligent and superior in their field of work, doesn't automatically translate as perfection in every arena of life. There are blind spots to every teacher, guru, philosopher, academician. 

Its just shows that one should rational and objective thinking and factual study and not simply rely on the name or rank of an individual.

 

 

[TJ Reeves]

So I looked at the actual study itself as opposed to the analysis of the article by the Telegraph.

My main interpretation is as follows:

Mindfulness gives you the tools to spot issues with your emotions and thoughts. Women have a better way of then handling these emotional issues in real time and in real life because of the way they were raised. Men, on the other hand, do not. So, as opposed to showing why mindfulness fails, Peterson's study just shows why men need to both take mindfulness classes to spot their issues and then take emotional-focused therapy classes to address issues in a healthy manners. 

Here's my reasoning:

As noted by the authors of the study, the issue here does not lie with meditation itself but with gendered forms of emotional expression. In the beginning of the paper, the authors of the study write:

Importantly, research also suggests differences in response mechanisms to psychological distress. When coping with psychological distress, men tend to “externalize” their distress by directing action outward (e.g., playing sports or video games, watching TV, etc), whereas women tend to internalize their distress by directing action inward (e.g., ruminating or writing about a negative event) .

The other thing women do is that they talk to each other about their emotional baggage. Women are much better at talking to others about their emotions than men are because of the way they are cultured. In a society that much become less about doing and more about allowing yourself to Be, it's important to let go of this externalized "doing" that characterizes masculinity.

As a result of men's externalization of emotions and need to "do" stuff, men:

• Suffer from greater amounts of attentional issues ("what should I do to solve my problems!? There are too many options of what to do! ")
• Take on greater job risks ("I have to do something to get noticed, so I won't feel so worthless and I can finally be happy!")
• Refuse aid more often from mental health professionals ("Because all they do is talk talk talk instead of actually finding solutions!") 
• And thus, commit suicide more often ("At least it's technically a form of doing something")

The difference is so great, some sociologists argue that the #1 factor for determining a straight male's lifetime longevity is whether he's married during middle age. Why? Again, women are simply much better to talk about emotions with.

Another study, the Harvard Longevity study, demonstrated that:

"close relationships, more than money or fame, are what keep people happy throughout their lives. Those ties protect people from life’s discontents, help to delay mental and physical decline, and are better predictors of long and happy lives than social class, IQ, or even genes. That finding proved true across the board among both the Harvard men and the inner-city participants."

And what is the secret to keeping and maintaining strong relationships? Respectful discussion of emotional issues, the ability to discuss solutions to those issues with one another, and being there celebrating each other's wins. Women do a much better job of this then men, who are off trying to live out some grand purpose on their own.

Going back to the study itself, I do not see any issue with these findings. I can easily interpret the studies results as follows:

• men and women both learned to recognize their emotions in real time without identifying with them, as they should have with mindfulness practice
• the women in the study proceeded to talk with their friends about the new emotional flavors that came up in regular every-day life
• the men, when faced with new emotional flavors, either tried to "do" stuff to fix it or did not talk to friends about it nearly as much as the women

So, the women gained a benefit but the men didn't.

Mediation is just practice. What matters is Game Time. What matters is ordinary, every day life.

I still think that the mindfulness practices are important for showing men their emotional flavors in the first place. What must happen is that the men become well trained at talking about that shit with other men and women. 

Overall, the study may be evidence that for men, Mindfulness alone is not enough in its early stages, but that doesn't mean it should be thrown out. Instead mindfulness would be better off intertwined with some form of emotion-focused therapy for men. Women, by nature of how they were raised in culture, may not need such therapy as much, although it might be beneficial for some people, regardless of gender.

Edited July 9, 2017 by TJ Reeves

[Steph1988]

@Leo Gura This is interesting to me because i'm following all his programs and plan to do his authoring program and it feels like 2 competing styles of self development.

It is a pity he waved off the tradition of mindfulness like its some useless trend i would love to see him go full on into the subject and why he thinks that actually.

But you dismiss him quite quickly as well, how well do you know his work? and did you watch his some of his lectures?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

because if they were far in their own development, they would stop being academics.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You will not find happiness there.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Conscious people do not crusade.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

They are ultimately lost in mind

These are big statements.............and i actually like that because you get to the heart of the matter quickly, i guess that would almost justify a video on its own.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

They are ultimately lost in mind, and their entire careers and livelihoods hinge on that

But so your career and other people who teach your particular style of PD hinge on getting not lost in mind what makes your way superior to his?

curious to see your take on this in a more elaborate way someday because there are opposing views on life here by 2 people claiming to know what is the best way.

[Leo Gura]

@Steph1988 Yes, I'm sure it looks that way from your POV.

I just can't communicate to you how I come to these conclusions. They integrate hundreds of sources and 1000s of hours of practice. The only way for you to really understand is to walk the path yourself.

I have made a career out of personal development, but the difference is, I understand that all my words are not the Truth. And my career in personal development will be short-lived.

I am not kidding about the black hole effect. It's very real. And it is already happening to me. At some point, you may just find me sitting alone in a cave in silence. Come say Hi, but don't expect any answers.

When you get far enough down the rabbit hole, you'll understand why it must be this way.

[Steph1988]

@Leo Gura Ok fair enough words can only get us so far and i can't possibly know what you have experienced with my limited time with self development.

I find the rabbit hole kind of risky and scary i'm not sure i'm willing to take it that far i have to be honest, having a passion,friends,family,healthy sex life,no money worries decent work and contributing to society seem to me the highest ideal to strife for.

And when u are sitting in that cave in total bliss i hope you don't suddenly wake up in panic realizing that was not the thing u were looking for but unable to turn back to society and realizing its too late i have thought about that and that idea scares the hell out of me .

[Toby]

@Outer good video. Another good one here:

 

[AlwaysBeNice]

He did actually have a mystical experience he talked about. But yeah, as long as there are denial systems/negative ego, one will have a tendency to ignore and even hate spirituality.

 

[Edita]

On 7/9/2017 at 6:08 PM, Leo Gura said:

You can only expect so much from your academics. Don't expect them to be mystics. It's hazardous to their careers.

Leo, he seems to be quite open minded about DMT ?

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Edita