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[Talinn]

I'm not one to sit on a toxic rotary table forever , but claiming Emerald was upset that she couldn't be "king of the thread' is extra odd phrasing for a person who took explicit pride in being a woman ...

[enchanted]

38 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I am sad to read these words. You don't ask what I meant, but assumed you knew.

You also didn't ask what I meant and you assumed that I assumed something. And you also assumed that my words are something to get sad over and then you got sad by them.

But please clarify by what you meant if you feel like my response implies a misunderstanding. 

Edited 13 hours ago by enchanted

[Ulax]

It is always interesting to view these discussions from a tier 2 development standpoint

[Thought Art]

@Natasha Tori Maru Okay, good. I just felt ignored and then she made the claim about men here… and she’s even leaving from the men here. 
 

I am not convinced she even demonized Leo here…

There was nuance in that thread. 
 

It takes time for people to digest ideas too. We can’t look for instant agreement here. 

@Talinn Fair, ill change it to queen. 
 

Emerald does deserve respect, I agree. 
 

We all do. 
 

But, a label is one thing. I don’t really care, what matters here to me is not bowing. There was plenty of nuance in that thread. Of course, lots of shit too.  This is the internet. I DO wish there was more female voices here. 

Edited 13 hours ago by Thought Art

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, enchanted said:

You also didn't ask what I meant and you assumed that I assumed something. And you also assumed that my words are sad and then you got sad by them. Not my fault. 

You had to, though. 

I am trying to illustrate how miscommunication is happening. I just expressed a feeling, you don't need to defend. I never claimed it was your fault or you were responsible.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Okay, good. I just felt ignored and then she made the claim about men here… and she’s even leaving from the men here. 
 

I am not convinced she even demonized Leo here…

@Talinn Fair, ill change it to queen. 

I read your replies. Enjoyed them! I think you had a nuanced point that overlapped with Emeralds cohesively. There was a lot going on in that thread, and I suspect it was just a capacity/distraction issue that your arguements weren't addressed.

I didn't see you engage with any dishonest argument tactics. This was the crux of Emeralds issue. Not losing or winning. The manner and conduct of engagement was the friction element.

I have always read you as having an honest character in that way.

Edited 13 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Thought Art]

@Natasha Tori Maru Well thank you! 
 

I don’t have perfect conduct here on the forum but I generally try to be good faith. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Thought Art said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Well thank you! 
 

I don’t have perfect conduct here on the forum but I generally try to be good faith. 

It is noticed for sure 

Same for me (regarding conduct). We all misbehave. Human nature. Grace is in how we reconcile. 

And I can see how this whole thread appears to run counter to reconsiliation. I think it is simply Emerald asserting a boundary for what she will/won't tolerate. Leaving the forum is the boundary.

[Thought Art]

@Natasha Tori Maru Fair, fair. And I respect that boundary. Please give me some grace as I pushed back on some rhetoric of the thread of others, and her response though I have gained more clarity and continue to reflect and deepen my understanding.
 

She is right there is a lot of challenging people here sometimes. They also tend to be loud and opinionated. I am that way at times and in the past. 
 

The worst is when people make bad faith arguments, get triggered, attack, smear, distract, avoid, have big ego, etc. 
 

But, people really are only as mature, educated and conscious as they are. I know a lot of people here simply can’t do better than they do. They are more undeveloped than they think which is largely due to their low development… catch 22. 

Most people in general, and here are not mature, wise, loving, awake, developed, mystics, Actualized, Good, etc. People may have these qualities and that is amazing. People are indeed growing, maturing, developing actualizing, reflecting, becoming more loving.

But, also some people are going backwards. We had a lot of mods get demodded recently and I think it’s because over time their lack of maturity, stability integrity became clear. 

It’s normal to go backwards, forwards, to go down rabbit holes of self deception, to be a jerk sometimes, etc.

She’s right this forum struggles at times.

But, it is a personal development forum. Not just for those who are developed and so here we are.

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Thought Art

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Thought Art

Quote

But, it is a personal development forum. Not just for those who are developed and so here we are.

Definitely. Which is why we give grace.

If we want to develop or work on ourselves, we have to admit that we can be wrong. We also need a good measure of openness AND groundedness in balance. To be here on this forum, wanting to develop, means we admit there is something that needs critical assessment, recalibration and change.

Engaging in dishonest debate tactics often isn't an attempt to get closer to the truth. It's about winning and egos.

The fact of the matter remains - some people are here just to debate. Some are here for spiritual insights, some are here for philosophy. It varies. We clash a lot when we think we are all here with the same meaning in tow, looking at the forum to fulfil or grow different aspects of our life.

[Thought Art]

And no one is perfect here. Even Leo. He is especially casual and I think we can’t take this few word responses as the totality of his opinion or capacity for reflection and understanding.

[eos_nyxia]

4 hours ago, enchanted said:

How do you know that the women are treated differently or worse?

 Everyone is treated poorly here in my opinion at least some of the time. I've seen women on here act horribly. Ive seen two guys get into the stupidest arguments.

Women: Stop feeling sorry for yourselves. You don't deserve more delicate treatment because you are a woman. 

My conclusions are the result of reading the whole thread which caused Emerald to decide to leave, which I also posted in. And just generally being on this forum since...  about late 2019? I used to post under a different account. Sometimes it's not just what is explicitly said or not addressed, as it was in the case of Emerald's meticulous posts, but also the whole energy and atmosphere of certain parts of the forum (and frankly certain users), especially in the Dating & Sexuality section. Women have been objecting to the dehumanizing attitude toward women (often in the name of dropping huge groundbreaking truths) the whole time I've been here. In this case, the pretense is that the men who are arguing are truly listening, but they so often are not -- I can only assume this to be the case if you don't bother to engage with another's points thoroughly and in good faith. 

Everyone treating everyone else badly regardless of gender is a separate issue; this is about a specific reoccurring aspect which is part of the zeitgeist of this forum, which is also very much a part of the zeitgeist of our time. That is as much a reason to take it seriously as anything else. 

This has already been brought up: it is pretty condescending to assume that the reason why women are reacting the way they are is because of sheer unawareness of intrinsic power differentials, especially physical, as if we are all virgin spring flowers that were born yesterday who never had to deal with the reality of being in female bodies and the social reality of being female... literally our whole lives. As if that message hasn't already been sent to a lot of us super directly either by society, our elders, or interactions with our peers IRL. Using this as a trump card to whip out at the last moment in an argument is pretty goofy, and then a bunch of dudes come together to pat each other on the back for dropping some harsh truthz, lol. 

Again, if you need another man's perspective (since female disagreement tends to get reduced down to being on the opposing gender divide): my partner reads pretty much all my posts, and he thinks this forum has a lot of incel energy and that I'm too charitable (I personally don't think I am, as I write for myself, to sometimes share perspectives and to occasionally practice forming my thoughts into rhetoric). When I point out that a lot of the posters here have had relationships and had sex, he... still thinks this is the case. He's referring to the attitude and energy though. The bitterness and lack and insecurity shines through the veneer of belief in one's power simply because they are male...

My personal feeling is that highly specialized niche groups tend to have higher highs and lower lows in terms of the quality of interactions and people who I would personally enjoy and benefit from being around. I felt the same way about being a teenage metalhead -- there are some top-tier awesome people, and then there are a lot of people who I would never voluntarily choose to be around.

If your argument is about justifying a race to the bottom in terms of standards for behaviour, why bring this to a personal development forum of all places?

4 hours ago, enchanted said:

This place is a turn off for everyone. We are here because at this point on our lives we have nowhere better to be.

TBH, this is a good example of the start of a good "race to the bottom" sort of attitude. Because nothing is serious here, none of this matters, so accountability and conduct doesn't matter either?

Like if you want something better, hold yourself to higher standards first and foremost. Really be willing to scrutinize your own conduct and motives without making excuses for yourself. 

[Jirh]

I guess most women tend to have higher expectations from a space like this, which is reasonable but ultimately unrealistic, because disagreement on such spaces especially on delicate nuanced/advanced topics doesn't usually indicate a simple difference of perspective, but a fundamental gap in understanding and mental capacity. Most women here are extra developed. They're like the top smartest highest consciousness women right now. But the men here are at a much broader scale of intellect and consciousness and life experience. Many men aren't even capable of seeing the feminine or reflecting it back. I struggle with this myself sometimes, so I understand and sympathize with the general struggle. But then again, I can see and understand how that experience feels like from the woman's perspective.  It surely sucks to be unseen. To put yourself out there and try to connect, while actually making more effort into your comments to appeal to men's worldview and make logical sense. All to be dismissed as if you are a ghost. It goes unnoticed, unappreciated, unacknowledged, and even strawmanned sometimes, which is the ultimate irony and proof that you aren't the ghost but actually talking to one (or multiple), which is why I think it's an issue of choosing the wrong audience and looking at the cup half empty while there are others who actually see you and agree with your point of view.

[integral]

But you've never been wrong on the forum.

To accomplish this, one has to hold Their ground indefinitely. Holding one's ground is a trap and why debat does not lead to truth and always leads to dissatisfaction + reinforcement of preconceived beliefs.

Debating is where both participants integrate the other person's perspective in a way that reinforces and strengthens their already pre-held beliefs.

Edited 6 hours ago by integral

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Jirh @eos_nyxia I enjoyed your analysis above 🫶🏻

@integral It wasn't the winning or losing, right / wrong that resulted in @Emeralds departure. It was the dishonest, uncharitable debate tactics engaged in.

[integral]

18 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@integral It wasn't the winning or losing, right / wrong that resulted in @Emeralds departure. It was the dishonest, uncharitable debate tactics engaged in.

I'm sure all of that happened. 

As she said, the main reason she's leaving is her identity is playing out a childhood trauma, It was written in her post.

Maybe she's struggling to not debate people who are dishonest and uncharitable and not put so much energy into it.

Why put so much energy into people who don't have the integrity to debate properly? I guess trauma Can play as that incentive.

And I guess that trauma could allow you to interpret how people are engaging In a distorted way.

On top of that, there's a long-term pattern of her never being wrong. And the reason is she's holding her perspective indefinitely.

Edited 6 hours ago by integral

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, integral said:

Why put so much energy into people who don't have the integrity to debate properly? 

Hence leaving the forum.

[integral]

5 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Hence leaving the forum.

This place is like the epistemic holy grail in comparison to every other place on the internet. lmao

Where is she gonna go? There are many stage green communities that value Vibe over everything else, where they're epistemically blind to how important Vibe is to them in the writing style. It might be a nicer environment?

Edited 6 hours ago by integral

[integration journey]

We are definitely vibing in this thread😂

[Xonas Pitfall]

9 hours ago, Basman said:

Sure, but then I would caution about bias. At the end of the day, what is being said is obvious stuff.

No, that's my exact point. When we say "obvious stuff," people are taking "obvious" and the notion of "normalcy" or "matter-of-factness" as truth. Leo has plenty of videos on this, and in general, we are aware that the notion of what is "normal" or "obvious" is an extremely fickle thing.

Same way a white person who's racist might say, "Okay, but it's obvious the white race is superior. Look around you!" Or a religious person might say, "Okay, but it's obvious there has to be a creator. It's just obvious. It's obvious Jesus is the way." You're using nuance for a bias, but this stuff is "obvious" to these people.

And to clarify about the hunting part. I'm completely okay with accepting that that's the truth, or not the truth; I don't have a bias there. Nor do I think Emerald or anyone in the conversation wanted to say, "Women and men are equal and equally strong and equally developed, and they do the same roles equally and equally efficiently with equal desire and preference, and all is the same." That's a silly takeaway.

If I remember correctly, what was discussed in the thread was the notions of femininity in modern times vs. previous times, and how a lot of the traits you'd see as masculine, you'd see in women as well, because that's what survival entails. The notion of what femininity is was questioned, as well as how it relates to masculinity, how the split developed, and so on. But then a lot of it turned into more rigid, simplistic, binary ways of seeing gender that are stereotypical and don't really question anything, and most of it was also very gender-war-esque, without proper argumentation. People made assumptions and argued very strongly in absolute terms: "This is 100% how we evolved. This is 100% what gender is."

I'd say that's one of my biggest critiques of some of these discussions.

It's completely fine to say, "It seems, based on research and evidence, that men, on average, are taller than women or have greater bone density, muscle mass, etc." But what you don't do is say, "Hence why men are generally more capable, femininity means being weak and dependent, and if you claim to be strong, you're not actually a woman. You are a masculine woman. You need to be fragile and frail; that's what true femininity is." Do you see how big that leap is?

Same thing to bring back the racist argument. It's okay to say, "Objectively, you can see that white people have less melanin and black people have more, hence why black skin appears darker." But what's not okay is saying, "Hence why they appear dirtier and less attractive, and why they need to be slaves." These are huge leaps.

Edited 5 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall