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[Joseph Maynor]

Forgiveness is underrated.  

[Heaven]

How old is @Emerald?

If she is a teenager we should not be so harsh with her. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Forgiveness is underrated.  

Maybe I should make an apology/karma purge mega thread. Anyone can come and go after they cool down from forum jostles. Apologise where they feel they need to (link the thread, tag the user or not, as they choose). Absolve and heal. There is a big area of growth in domains of humility and surrender this forum has no place for. It could be a healthy, safe space to facilitate this.

We probably all go to bed, wake up and reread "the fuck was I thinking", "hmm, okay I see the point now", "oh yeah I was being uncharitable / a dick".  Usually when people cool down they see clearly. 

It would have stricter standard of moderating. But would probably assist with grudges, built up dislike, tension and karma accumulation.

[Joseph Maynor]

We are all on the path.   

[Xonas Pitfall]

46 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Xonas Pitfall 

It's interesting because this reflects a lot of the types of thinking that I see prevelent in the manosphere, MGTOW and Red-pill and adjacent communities.

They are fantastic at identifying truths - especially truths many people don't want to hear.

Then they go and fuck it all up with obsessive compulsive evo-psych/mechanistic style hyper fixated explanations and insane methods to try to leverage them. The truths are the good bit. The hyper fixated behavioural psychology is crazy. Half the downstream advice from the conclusions of their explanations act to make the problems for them worse. 

The endless evo-psych explanations are a form of cope. Not the truth observations they originate from.

Yes! I think this is a general pattern in ideologies and in how any strong bias can develop. You notice a truth, but then that truth gets twisted by your ego to benefit you. Because, again, ego is a very tricky little devilish thing that will twist things as much as it can, or as much as it needs to, to soothe itself. And then, when people point it out, you think they're attacking the "truth" rather than the actual distortion you've imposed on that truth.

It happens everywhere.

• A cult might start as a self-development group or a peaceful community for socialising and volunteering work, but then the leader starts using it to twist things and promote his own propaganda, or members end up being exploited for some ulterior motive (I'm not referring to Actualized.org, to be clear).
• A racist ideology might notice "objective" differences in appearance or culture, but then twist those observations to establish its own race, culture, country, or identity as superior.
• A religious person might start with a genuine interest in spirituality, morality, or understanding existence, but then twist those beliefs to justify their own superiority, condemn everyone outside their faith, and excuse harmful behaviour because they believe they're acting on behalf of some higher truth.
• A political movement might start with legitimate concerns about inequality, corruption, or injustice, but then become so invested in its own narrative that it excuses the same behaviour it originally condemned, as long as its own side is "responsible".
• And even in relationships, someone might recognise a genuine issue in their partner's behaviour, but then use that one truth to justify controlling them, or making themselves out to be the victim in every situation.

The pattern is that something can begin with a legitimate observation, 'a truth', but then the ego starts building a narrative around it that serves its own interests. And because the narrative is built around something that is at least partially true, it becomes much harder to recognise the distortion. 

In fact, truth is one of the most overpowered tools the ego can use, because it doesn't just fool others; it fools itself, too. It can take something that's genuinely true and use it to convince itself that it's completely in the right, to the point where it stops questioning itself altogether. You end up in a trance where you genuinely believe you're acting in the name of truth, while actually justifying actions that serve your own ego.

[Ulax]

51 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Forgiveness is underrated.  

Forgiveness without accountability is generally just sugarcoated submission

[Xonas Pitfall]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

Your overstating the degree of harmful stereotyping in my opinion.

How so? On this forum, I've seen some quite questionable things said about women and femininity. I've seen it from Leo himself, tbh.

I agree that people should be way more grounded in their positions. That's exactly why I am pointing out the extreme stereotyping.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Forgiveness without accountability is generally just sugarcoated submission

I think there needs to be a behaviour change. 

Sorry doesn't cut it. A change in behaviour (or an effort to) is the best apology.

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think there needs to be a behaviour change. 

Sorry doesn't cut it. A change in behaviour (or an effort to) is the best apology.

But expecting a behavior change is also too rigid.  According to who?  

[Joseph Maynor]

9 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Forgiveness without accountability is generally just sugarcoated submission

I tend to want as many perspectives here as possible.  This is my bias.  

[Xonas Pitfall]

I don't think we should naturally expect much forgiveness or acknowledgment in debates and forums, tbh. People can be very opinionated, biased, and ideologically blinded. They can be quite emotionally charged and "personal" topics, after all, so it's very understandable.

The best thing you can do is hold yourself to your own standards. Call out bad behaviour, inconsistencies, and flawed logic in a reasonable, understandable way, and when you catch yourself falling into those same patterns, acknowledge it and correct yourself, ideally publicly so it can have a good ripple effect/karma.

[Ulax]

8 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I tend to want as many perspectives here as possible.  This is my bias.  

Interesting

[Joseph Maynor]

Emerald should just hide this thread and carry on as normal.  

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But expecting a behavior change is also too rigid.  According to who?  

You can't just apologise over and over and still act out in the same terrible way. Eventually the behaviour needs to be addressed. 

As an example - you keep getting angry and verbally abusing your partner. Then apologising. The apology means very little if you continue to abuse and apologize, expecting forgiveness or for your partner to accept poor treatment. 

It lacks integrity. Your word, your apology, means nothing without your actions (not doing abusing) lining up. For most, we can accept a provisional time where we work on changing behaviour and be patient, accepting. But work needs to be done to change behaviour when it is unacceptable.

In this context, the behaviour should align with the guidelines, spirit of the forum and good, charitable terms of engagement. Ideally. 

Usually in this space, when users don't change, we can simply ignore them as a boundary. Even if they do apologise.

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You can't just apologise over and over and still act out in the same terrible way. Eventually the behaviour needs to be addressed. 

As an example - you keep getting angry and verbally abusing your partner. Then apologising. The apology means very little if you continue to abuse and apologize, expecting forgiveness or for your partner to accept poor treatment. 

It lacks integrity. Your word, your apology, means nothing without your actions (not doing abusing) lining up. For most, we can accept a provisional time where we work on changing behaviour and be patient, accepting. But work needs to be done to change behaviour when it is unacceptable.

In this context, the behaviour should align with the guidelines, spirit of the forum and good, charitable terms of engagement. Ideally. 

Usually in this space, when users don't change, we can simply ignore them as a boundary. Even if they do apologise.

Yes.  If your hypothetical is correct, there definitely is a place for fault finding.  

[Basman]

22 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

How so? On this forum, I've seen some quite questionable things said about women and femininity. I've seen it from Leo himself, tbh.

I agree that people should be way more grounded in their positions. That's exactly why I am pointing out the extreme stereotyping.

You just have an utopian bias. Your in an adversial relationship with reality fundamentally. That's the crux of the issue. The pushback is against bad leftist ideas of what men and women are because they are not true.

Fundamentally you don't accept what women and survival actually are. Women survival is falling in love with your rapist and raising their kids, stockholm syndrome style. That's how a lot of women survived historically. Leftists see that and want to deny its even there. 

[Talinn]

The purpose of this forum is literally to raise individual and collective consciousness such that this neednt be the norm.

 

I mean, what are we doing here, we can't aspire to any other notion of femininity? You're chewing on metal and telling us all it's the only way to eat