Some Can't Be Helped?

[BlessedLion]

8 hours ago, Butters said:

Do you believe that spiritual experiences are something most people benefit from? Can most people who desire to expand their consciousness? 

In another thread someone said something like "some people go to 10 ayahuasca retreats and nothing changes" and that is true. Some people go to 6 Tony Robbins events per year. 

Can we then conclude that some people simply cannot expand their consciousness in this lifetime? 

And does that then make a kundalini retreat or a yoga retreat or a psychedelic retreat completely useless to them? Surely it's still time better spent than being on TikTok. 

 

Absolutely. This is known as Saktipat and it is very real. Don't underestimate the power and effect one can have on another with one powerful conversation. Not in some fantasy Jesus way, walking on water and having everyone who looks at you dissolve into unconditional love, but in a more human way.

 

One retreat can change the whole trajectory of someones life

[Ramasta9]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The sickest people of all are sitting in corporate boardrooms, not shamanic retreats.

I was referring to in terms of those on the spiritual/conscious/psychedelic path (as we are in these forums). 

[Harikrishnan]

3 hours ago, Rigel said:

That’s assuming they are interested in going on a discovery process in the first place which is highly unlikely. People don’t just scroll TikTok and then spontaneously have non-ordinary consciousness. 

Actually some do! Last day I heard a excerpt from adyashanti, where he said (paraphrasing) a women came for retreat who have never meditated or did any consciousness work came saying she lost I, she thought it was bad and thats why she came to retreat. Many masters had spontaneous awakening without any practice.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

Please go to some guru who transmit Kundalini energy.

I am getting too old and too set in my ways to go chasing after magical gurus. A wild goose chase if there ever was one.

I've interacted with various so-called mystical enlightened people and I have not seen any of them have any kind of life-changing aura. That is stuff you read of in New Age books.

To become transformed just from an aura is a New Ager's wet dream. Zero work. Zero thought. Just magic.

Edited 16 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Mellowmarsh]

10 hours ago, Butters said:

Do you believe that spiritual experiences are something most people benefit from? Can most people who desire to expand their consciousness? 

In another thread someone said something like "some people go to 10 ayahuasca retreats and nothing changes" and that is true. Some people go to 6 Tony Robbins events per year. 

Can we then conclude that some people simply cannot expand their consciousness in this lifetime? 

And does that then make a kundalini retreat or a yoga retreat or a psychedelic retreat completely useless to them? Surely it's still time better spent than being on TikTok. 

 

Nothing ever changes because the one that only appears to change , apparently, is actually changeless.

The one that appears to change, apparently, never changed, for this ONE can never be found to be truly there in an objective way.

This makes it impossible to cling to a teaching or to haggle over other people’s ideas or interpretations.

Perception in this case, is deception.

 

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Do we think others help us, or is it that we help ourselves? 

Maybe we can recieve a push that causes a stumble and realignment - but it is *us* that does the realigning.

In my experience 

[Bjorn K Holmstrom]

This thread hits home for me. I went deep on the spiritual path, had mystical experiences that shifted my entire way of being, but eventually, I felt a strong pull to come back (or to be more truthful, I came back a bit on a whim).

Actually, I probably was subtly afraid of losing myself completely, and the primal safety/survival instinct kicked in when I came back. @Joshe mentioned that identity structures allow for persistence, and I think that is crucial. I realized that my normal self, the architect, the person who can function in society, is actually the most beneficial vehicle for mankind right now.

The challenge isn't just expanding consciousness; it's integrating that expansion into a structure that can actually do things in the world (like fixing the corporate boardrooms Leo mentioned). If we dissolve too much, we lose the agency required to change the system.

So for me, the goal shifted from transcending the human form to upgrading it.

Edited 12 hours ago by Bjorn K Holmstrom

[Natasha Tori Maru]

20 minutes ago, Bjorn K Holmstrom said:

If we dissolve too much, we lose the agency required to change the system.

So for me, the goal shifted from transcending the human form to upgrading it.

May I ask - what it is you are dissolving, or think needs to be dissolved?

I have not lost agency in my process. On the contrary - the body moves. Tasks are done. Deadlines met. Sleeping happens. Body eats. It all happens when it should, just as it should. But with no resistance. Effortless power.

All resistance to experience is lowered - flow and ease are restored. Like there is no centre.

I still accomplish a lot. More than many.

 

[Bjorn K Holmstrom]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

May I ask - what it is you are dissolving, or think needs to be dissolved?

I have not lost agency in my process. On the contrary - the body moves. Tasks are done. Deadlines met. Sleeping happens. Body eats. It all happens when it should, just as it should. But with no resistance. Effortless power.

All resistance to experience is lowered - flow and ease are restored. Like there is no centre.

I still accomplish a lot. More than many.

 

That sounds like a beautiful state of flow/Wu Wei, Natasha. I have tasted that, and it is indeed effortless power. I'd love to feel it again.

To answer your question: What I fear dissolving is the 'Strategist' or the 'Architect'.

In my experience, navigating daily life (eating, sleeping, tasks) can be done in flow. But building entirely new infrastructures (like a political movement or complex software systems) often requires holding a painful tension between 'what is' and 'what needs to be.'

My fear is that if I dissolve all resistance to the present moment, I will lose the friction required to change the future. If I accept the world as perfect/effortless, why would I spend 10 years fighting to upgrade its operating system?

The 'upgrade' I am seeking is the ability to hold that strategic tension/vision without it collapsing into anxiety. To build the cathedral without suffering, but with the will to move heavy stones that don't want to move.

Does your effortless power extend to long-term strategic warfare (metaphorically) against rigid systems? I am genuinely curious.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Bjorn K Holmstrom said:

My fear is that if I dissolve all resistance to the present moment, I will lose the friction required to change the future. If I accept the world as perfect/effortless, why would I spend 10 years fighting to upgrade its operating system?

The 'upgrade' I am seeking is the ability to hold that strategic tension/vision without it collapsing into anxiety. To build the cathedral without suffering, but with the will to move heavy stones that don't want to move.

Ah! Okay - I am familiar with this. Prior to - shall we say - the 'resistance' to judging of experience, I used pressure to create solutions. Which you could supplant with 'friction required' - as you coin. The impulse I had previously came with an element of force (pressure, friction). And a latent, ever buzzing anxiety would hum in the background of my days at work. I bounced my focus of this anxiety to come up with creative solutions to problems that arise in the moment from the active construction site, and to planning builds with many latent conditions and unusual build phases. Hypervigilance was used to accomplish this.

One day I had this experience of total stop. I guess a cessation? Experienced stopped having a center. I didn't seem to have experience - suddenly experience had me. I stopped judging experience. And with that, all resistance was removed. It seemed when problems arose on site (I work commercial construction as a project manager/estimator) I naturally attended to them, then returned to my previous task. I simply trusted I would be able to find the solution to any changing event. I looked at sequences and made changes to hopefully get to an outcome. I trusted I knew exactly what to do when a certain set of variables lined up to influence a positive outcome. Now that is all I do - watch and act to influence the outcome I need. I no longer get anxious about the outcome - I feel it is out of my control. The attachment to the outcome was removed which produced an equanimous state even at work. Because I stopped feeling as if I was the center of my experience, I no longer looked at some tasks as good, bad, fun, boring. The tasks just got done by the body. I had no where else I wanted to be. If I had to wash the dishes or file some invoices - it was an experience free of judgement and so, welcome.

Having said that, I operate from that state at work 90% + of the time now. It feels like I am not doing anything - like I do not make a direct decision. My hands just type the emails they need to. Take off quantities as needed with the mouse. Call those who need information. Order on such a date so as to hopefully have materials on a date. 

There are times I slip out from this state back into a distortion of experience back to my force driven way of being. But these are less and less. And when it does happen - I backtrack and pay attention to what put me in that state as a way to identify where in my process I am contracting. I 'work' (dissolve?) these contractions. But not dissolve ego. After all - even if the ego is an illusion, we cannot kill something that didn't exist in the first place  I suppose ego is like the moon - it is illuminated. But it is an illusion that appears to have light. The light is from the sun. The moon is present and shines in brilliance - but it is an illusion.

I suppose the above answers:

1 hour ago, Bjorn K Holmstrom said:

Does your effortless power extend to long-term strategic warfare (metaphorically) against rigid systems? I am genuinely curious.

Most of the time - yes! Especially in estimating where not only do I quote large medical refits and science facilities - but gantt charts for the construction programs. And due to the nature of my work (medical construction) the program wins the bid in many cases. Operations and downtime are usually the top consideration when the work is state/federal. Money isn't as much of an issue. So creative solutions are how we win bids. 

I think I used to fear that without my ego I would not have the compulsion to achieve. But seeing through it arose effortlessness that enabled me to achieve and do so much more without the mind wasting power that came with resistance, anxiety & force. That energy now goes to the feeling of the body just - doing its thing.

I digress and I may not have answered directly.... I enjoyed your question and the answer process though 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Miguel1]

12 hours ago, cetus said:

Remembering back to my first experience of non- ordinary consciousness it was a total game changer.  More real than reality itself. How can anyone not be permanently changed after such a discovery?

Reminds me of when I was 10-12, I had my first mystical experience of when I disconnected from my ”mind” or took a step back to consciousness.

I have since wondered is this just a normal thing kids go through where they just realize that there is distinctions between objects, people, and themselves. But isnt this what younger kids / babies go through?

I have asked many people and nobody experienced what I experienced.

I remember vividly, I was actually in a shower praying to Allah, because my brainwashed muslim kid friends brainwashed me to fear devils around, and only by praying, will you get rid of them.

But suddenly, a shift in consciousness happened. It was permanent, and hella scary.

It’s hard to describe, but it felt like suddenly I became the witnessing consciousness and disconnected with my normal mind/self back then.

It felt like instead of being part of the earthly world, I suddenly stepped back to something witnessing the world.

It was scary as hell. And I had no way to make sense of it. This shift changed my experience of life forever.

To this day I’m still wondering if this was a deep mystical experience, or just normal psychological thing kids go through.

Edited 8 hours ago by Miguel1

[gettoefl]

I need suffering and before it gets too late. Until then thanks but no thanks, am fine with TikTok.

[cetus]

@Miguel1 I'd certainly call that a mystical experience. Consciousness became untethered from the identity of the self. It does feel somewhat scary when it first happens. Kind of ghosty feeling like being eyes without a face.

[Miguel1]

23 minutes ago, cetus said:

@Miguel1 I'd certainly call that a mystical experience. Consciousness became untethered from the identity of the self. It does feel somewhat scary when it first happens. Kind of ghosty feeling like being eyes without a face.

Exactly, well described. And imagine it happening when you are 10!

[Ponder]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I find the notion that you are gonna change some dysfunctional guy with your epic aura, laughable.

You are more likely to be stabbed to death by that guy than to change him.

New Agers love this idea that you can cure people with just your epic spiritual aura. I will believe it when I see it with my own eyes. Until such time, skepticism.

Fair. Almost have been stabbed twice tbf. 
 

I actually have many such stories, but I’m too lazy to share any atm.

Will do a big post about it eventually. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Ponder

[LastThursday]

20 hours ago, Butters said:

Can we then conclude that some people simply cannot expand their consciousness in this lifetime?

Like anything it's easy to assume that what you see as beneficial, is actually beneficial to others also. On here you're preaching to the converted, so it seems obvious that expanding conciousness is where it's at. But to give an extreme example, it's just like a mafia boss who knocks off the opposition, and sees that as beneficial and asks: why doesn't everyone do that?

The bottom line is that everyone is different, and there isn't a "right" thing to do in life, it's all relative. Maybe even, for a lot of people expanding consciousness is actually a bad thing to do.

[Ishanga]

@Bjorn K Holmstrom @Natasha Tori Maru I learned this from Sadhguru, who is extremely active on all fronts, Spiritually the highest level of Experience and Expression as well as very active in the World to make change and transform, that is why I reference him so much, he is the living example that is here RIGHT NOW and doing it, not some master 2,000 yrs ago that is long gone dead and all we can do is read about it!,

What he says to do is just "Do what is Needed" no more no less.. Of course he is here with a physical Body and Mind and can see what is going on around him, especially a guy like him who is actually travelling around the world, meeting rich/famous/powerful ppl while at the sametime probably in the same day meeting normal everyday ppl, none of Us have this opportunity or are doing it..

So Your already set in how You want to be, your BEING is set, peace/Bliss is already Your Experience, this gives You more energy and clarity than you can ever use, plus it bypasses the normal survival instinct and egoic protective construct, "What about Me" is now gone for the most part, yeah you don't do reckless things (but he does, he drives his motorcycle pretty crazy they say), and consciously set up a plan for what to do that will benefit others and the planet.. This is where the motivation and drive comes from, not from mentally realizing "If I am Okay with everything, there is no resistance to what is, then why would I do anything to make change in the world", its a completely different way of looking at things.. He Consciously creates the drive to do what he thinks is needed to be done!

Why would SJV build temples, start environmental projects like Save Soil, Rally for Rivers, Project Green Hands, Cauvery Calling and go to prisons to help prisoners, set up hospitals all over, have 3 school systems set up at his main Ashram, etc and still do the Spiritual Activities and Events he is popularly known for... its not too profit personally from the money, its too make change and transformation...

Edited 4 hours ago by Ishanga

[Inliytened1]

21 hours ago, Butters said:

Do you believe that spiritual experiences are something most people benefit from? Can most people who desire to expand their consciousness? 

In another thread someone said something like "some people go to 10 ayahuasca retreats and nothing changes" and that is true. Some people go to 6 Tony Robbins events per year. 

Can we then conclude that some people simply cannot expand their consciousness in this lifetime? 

And does that then make a kundalini retreat or a yoga retreat or a psychedelic retreat completely useless to them? Surely it's still time better spent than being on TikTok. 

 

All you need is an open mind. 

A locked or closed mind cannot grasp that which is taught here and would not fully open themselves to meditation or retreats.  Some people cannot be helped because they have already chosen not to be.  But for the open enlightenment can dawn.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Most people can't be helped.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to change.

 “If the truth shall kill them, let them die.”

[Butters]

I wasn't really referring to Actualized.org members, we're a special breed who do all this self reflection and whatnot. I'm referring to the general population of spiritual or semi-spiritual people who go to a retreat. Do you think most benefit from this? It seems to me most go for socialization purposes, just like why people attend church. 

Different but related question: do you think the average modern Orange/Green hippie grows their consciousness at all in their lifetime, or is it just a bunch of air, even WITH proper spiritual practices such as Kundalini? 

Edited 3 hours ago by Butters