Why is Russia being held to a higher standard than the US

[Twentyfirst]

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

@Twentyfirst

Maybe some understanding can come from this.

If you punch Europeans in the face repeatedly, they just fight back harder. Its always been that way. 

I've been thinking about why. It's because we like to be detached and sit comfortably away from it all. So we do anything necessary to protect that way of life. If that means giving someone guns so the fight stays away from our borders we do that, if that means giving America military control we do that; if that means going to war with Russia because it disrupts that enough, we will. If it it means crashing the Russian economy so much the entire country shatters, we will do that, whatever it takes (as little as it takes preferably, is the European way of viewing the world).

In the same way Europe didn't understand how Russians can tolerate such poverty and conditions they find themselves in, Russia doesn't understand what lengths Europeans will go to, to avoid that. Its true there is high reluctance to war, but its also true there is equally high reluctance to lose that comfort and luxury. - Which turns things nationalist, which turns things violent and causes Europeans to start attacking rather than sitting idle.

It seems like Europeans are always the instigator and then they claim they got punched first. If Europeans really wanted to just be left alone then why is it so hard to be left alone. Think of a country like Bhutan. That's a real peaceful country, no weapons, doesn't meddle or have drama. How far is Europe from that? Very far. Don't ignore European history either which is half a century of whites killing other whites because their shade of white was 1% off. Nobody else in the world had two world wars. And such brutal violent wars too

I don't know it all just sounds too perfect. No way Europeans are just angels and Russians are evil. Ya'll are messed up more than you admit. Europe is the original colonial powers. British, Spanish, French, Belgium, Netherlands. So much destruction was caused and the world is still feeling the effects today. Russia never did that

Europeans just really believe their own bullshit. That you are the superman and batman of human rights and women's rights and whatever other bullshit they taught you in school. Your society lied so much that it started to believe it

When you say Russians can tolerate the conditions they are in what do you even mean? Like they still use fires instead of stoves? European society is extremely degraded and dysfunctional. You have the cultural break down of everything that makes humans human and happy. You can't even trust your own parents so you estrange them from yourself. Your spouse cheats on you. Your business partner cheats you. Your priest scams you. Just stop focusing on others and first fix your own crap THEN talk to the world about how to be moral 

Edited 19 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[BlueOak]

37 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

I was being sarcastic but don't Europeans do the same thing? 

"Russian citizens should take this opportunity to defeat their oppressive governments and join NATO where they rightly belong and where they can evolve past savagery" 

"Now that Israel is bombing Iran it is the perfect chance for their citizens to finally stand up to the bully leaders to hold them in chains, so they can join the civilized world and finally make progress in their miserable lives"

Maybe you haven't thought this. But honestly, how prevalent and common is this way of thinking from Westerners? "Let's dominate and bomb you into submission which will give you the evolution you didn't ask for"

It's not all sarcasm though. If you don't think that you can benefit from learning the good things about Russia then you don't understand cultures in an open minded way at all 

Europeans rarely do anything but sit back and let everyone else fight. There was a culture in the 80's and 90's of America thinking it can liberate cultures thousands of years old than it from themselves, this sense of superiority in America (and Russia) persists somewhat today but is toned down. Its getting a hard reset in Russia.

Russian's splitting off into countries better representing their minorities and cultures would benefit those cultures yes. They would no longer live off table scraps thrown to them by their Muscovite masters, they'd make outside alliances and enrich themselves. Sibera should be Russia's richest provinces by far.

I'll be happy to learn much from those cultures.

I've had my fill of the Muscovites for a few decades. Those guys go on about themselves more than the Americans did in the 80s.
 

Edited 19 hours ago by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

30 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

It seems like Europeans are always the instigator and then they claim they got punched first. If Europeans really wanted to just be left alone then why is it so hard to be left alone. Think of a country like Bhutan. That's a real peaceful country, no weapons, doesn't meddle or have drama. How far is Europe from that? Very far. Don't ignore European history either which is half a century of whites killing other whites because their shade of white was 1% off. Nobody else in the world had two world wars. And such brutal violent wars too

I don't know it all just sounds too perfect. No way Europeans are just angels and Russians are evil. Ya'll are messed up more than you admit. Europe is the original colonial powers. British, Spanish, French, Belgium, Netherlands. So much destruction was caused and the world is still feeling the effects today. Russia never did that

Europeans just really believe their own bullshit. That you are the superman and batman of human rights and women's rights and whatever other bullshit they taught you in school. Your society lied so much that it started to believe it

When you say Russians can tolerate the conditions they are in what do you even mean? Like they still use fires instead of stoves? European society is extremely degraded and dysfunctional. You have the cultural break down of everything that makes humans human and happy. You can't even trust your own parents so you estrange them from yourself. Your spouse cheats on you. Your business partner cheats you. Your priest scams you. Just stop focusing on others and first fix your own crap THEN talk to the world about how to be moral 

Ah yes, Bhutan, a lovely place. Where China is trying to steal its territory. Sorry, even they don't get left alone by large authoritarian blobs unless its resisted. Thankfully for them, India stepped up. Much like Europe did for Ukraine.
https://banotes.org/south-asia/bhutan-china-territorial-dispute-boundaries/

Its not like you to resort to moralism, Twentyfirst. Its like you barely read my posts. Where I have to tell people every single time.
People are people the world over. There are no angels. Morally superior absolutes or imperatives. Only the interests of the country or people involved.

Outside of Moscow and St Petersburg. That Russia can tolerate being in a run-down state with garbage piling up (pre war), with roads that barely function, half of them not having basic appliances, and living on wages that would make a McDonald's worker laugh. That's what I meant.

What I mean now is, Russians will put up with dying in a meat grinder, going without gas, food prices going up up and up (Ukranian sanctions have only been going on two months, wait till 4 months.) The internet shut down to avoid people saying the wrong thing, and people arrested for the slightest discontent. Entire families and communities out in the east having their youth wiped out, and the rest not getting paid while people in Moscow live fat lives and panic when they go without the internet for a night. That they don't mind China playing their country like a fool and buying up whatever it wants, while Russia slides back a 100 years, or carrying a million more wounded vets and criminals in your society. - That sort of thing, that they can bear that without rising up and choking the man in charge (their local governors and police). Hell even the oligarchs don't get paid these days.

Westerners didn't appreciate how good your propaganda was, or how much the Russian population will tolerate.

Just as you don't appreciate how little we'll tolerate and what lengths we will go to, to protect our way of life. - But I think you are starting to realise.

I didn't make European's mindset, I am just telling you what it is. Karens on Crack, and people who will bomb you into the stone age if you interfere too much with their way of lives. We go to great lengths not to get involved and live comfortable lives. So Russia needs to quit while they can and stop trying to involve us more, it will not end well.

Edited 19 hours ago by BlueOak

[Twentyfirst]

10 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Europeans rarely do anything but sit back and let everyone else fight. 

For a short time period of 80 years but before that Europeans fought all the time

Now they are investing more time, energy, and resources into bringing that all back for whatever reason 

[Ajay0]

18 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Saying that Stalin wasn’t as bad as Hitler is like comparing a serial killer to a serial killer.
It's utterly nonsensical moral relativism that, even if correct, is not a firm context to base an argument for favourable relations on.

Hitler sent to extermination camps the nazi defined racially inferior Slavs, gypsies, Jews, homosexuals and dissidents. Black pows ( French and American) were sent for summary execution .

Stalin was a Slav himself, and due to paranoia and German intelligence work showcasing competent Soviet generals and leaders as traitors, sent them to concentration camps. Most of his purges were due to paranoia and fear of traitors and spies.

Stalin's purges was mainly due to his lack of education ,which Trotsky had pointed out, and poor judgement on his part with respect to character.

Stalin was sympathetic to the anti-colonial movements in Asia, Africa and South America due to his communist conditioning. His approach to race was dictated by Marxist ideology, which framed racial issues through the lens of class conflict, identifying capitalism and Western imperialism as the source of racial exploitation. The Soviet Union under his rule officially promoted anti-racist rhetoric and provided support to international anti-colonial movements.

Obviously since Asia, Africa and latin america constitute over 80% of humanity and benefitted from communist support with respect to their independence and development, Stalin cannot be put in the same league as Hitler as a tyrant.

 

[Twentyfirst]

10 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Ah yes, Bhutan, a lovely place. Where China is trying to steal its territory. Sorry, even they don't get left alone by large authoritarian blobs unless its resisted. Thankfully for them, India stepped up. Much like Europe did for Ukraine.
https://banotes.org/south-asia/bhutan-china-territorial-dispute-boundaries/

Its not like you to resort to moralism, Twentyfirst. Its like you barely read my posts. Where I have to tell people every single time.
People are people the world over. There are no angels. Morally superior absolutes or imperatives. Only the interests of the country or people involved.

Outside of Moscow and St Petersburg. That Russia can tolerate being in a run-down state with garbage piling up (pre war), with roads that barely function, half of them not having basic appliances, and living on wages that would make a McDonald's worker laugh. That's what I meant.

What I mean now is, Russians will put up with dying in a meat grinder, going without gas, food prices going up up and up (Ukranian sanctions have only been going on two months, wait till 4 months.) The internet shut down to avoid people saying the wrong thing, and people arrested for the slightest discontent. Entire families and communities out in the east having their youth wiped out, and the rest not getting paid while people in Moscow live fat lives and panic when they go without the internet for a night. That they don't mind China playing their country like a fool and buying up whatever it wants, while Russia slides back a 100 years, or carrying a million more wounded vets and criminals in your society. - That sort of thing, that they can bear that without rising up and choking the man in charge (their local governors and police). Hell even the oligarchs don't get paid these days.

Westerners didn't appreciate how good your propaganda was, or how much the Russian population will tolerate.

Just as you don't appreciate how little we'll tolerate and what lengths we will go to, to protect our way of life. - But I think you are starting to realise.

I didn't make European's mindset, I am just telling you what it is. Karens on Crack, and people who will bomb you into the stone age if you interfere too much with their way of lives. We go to great lengths not to get involved and live comfortable lives. So Russia needs to quit while they can and stop trying to involve us more, it will not end well.

-The point I was making with Bhutan is they really live in peace and not just say they do. They can't control the actions of anyone else. But you can tell they are really about peace and not just saying words about peace. It's like how Netanyahu claims he wants peace in the middle of a genocide, you can tell that he isn't really about it. So I am making a distinction between words and actual actions. The Europeans claim they just want to be left alone but they expand NATO, they poke bears, they have dialogue of what war is necessary, they are allied with other military powers, they talk shit and hate on other cultures just because those cultures aren't exactly the same (which is funny because no cultures are the exact same and that is what is amazing about cultures). You go on the news and see some farmer in Afghanistan a thousand miles away that makes a dollar a day and suddenly the only way for you to feel safe in your apartment in Paris is to bomb him just because " the news says so", loose example but you get what I mean

-You are right that people are people but you mistake the degree of that. Just because China kills people and the USA kills people doesn't mean they are the same. China kills a fraction of the people and in less savage ways. Apply that to everything that can be considered corruption and the USA is worse than Russia so it's funny that Americans are telling Russians how to behave when it should be the other way around

-Moscow and St Petersubrg  hold a lot of the population though. What about Mississippi and places like that in America? They are 3rd world compared to NYC 

-There we go. Found that colonial activism. "Russians will suffer before doing the right thing of choking their corrupt leader and becoming liberated". I literally just told you that's how you think and you proved me right. As if you know what's best for the Russian people. Because you are from an advanced futuristic society where civility meets pure DNA and everyone else needs to be whipped into submission to even dream of one day being like you. But if I tell you to overthrow Epstien Pedos that steal from you everyday you think I am bonkers because how dare someone from a primitive society tell you how to run yours. Colonial activism is you using even one instance of corruption in Russia to persuade the Russian people to turn on their own country under the guise of you wishing they could live liberated lives but really it's you wishing for destruction and then conversion to your values 

-Ah yes, the Russians will only defend their crappy way of life due to propaganda. Because if their lives really are crap then they must be tricked into keeping it. No way that they actually love their lives and want to continue living in the exact same way

-I know how far Westerners will go to protect their way of life. It's disgusting and unnecessary. Nobody is instigating anything it's always you guys that start it. Very aggressive people. Also what the hell are you protecting? The right for women to be prostitutes because "my body my choice". The right to abort 100 million babies or whatever the number is. The right for single mothers, estranged fathers, and confused children growing up in broken homes? The list goes on and on 

-You understand half the mindset which is that savagery of bombing anyone at the slightest threat. What you don't know is that you guys are the ones starting it. Another thing you don't know is you are your own biggest threat 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

@BlueOak

This is pretty good for seeing how your society can turn you into someone who "defends threats"

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

-The point I was making with Bhutan is they really live in peace and not just say they do. They can't control the actions of anyone else. But you can tell they are really about peace and not just saying words about peace. It's like how Netanyahu claims he wants peace in the middle of a genocide, you can tell that he isn't really about it. So I am making a distinction between words and actual actions. The Europeans claim they just want to be left alone but they expand NATO, they poke bears, they have dialogue of what war is necessary, they are allied with other military powers, they talk shit and hate on other cultures just because those cultures aren't exactly the same (which is funny because no cultures are the exact same and that is what is amazing about cultures). You go on the news and see some farmer in Afghanistan a thousand miles away that makes a dollar a day and suddenly the only way for you to feel safe in your apartment in Paris is to bomb him just because " the news says so", loose example but you get what I mean

-You are right that people are people but you mistake the degree of that. Just because China kills people and the USA kills people doesn't mean they are the same. China kills a fraction of the people and in less savage ways. Apply that to everything that can be considered corruption and the USA is worse than Russia so it's funny that Americans are telling Russians how to behave when it should be the other way around

-Moscow and St Petersubrg  hold a lot of the population though. What about Mississippi and places like that in America? They are 3rd world compared to NYC 

-There we go. Found that colonial activism. "Russians will suffer before doing the right thing of choking their corrupt leader and becoming liberated". I literally just told you that's how you think and you proved me right. As if you know what's best for the Russian people. Because you are from an advanced futuristic society where civility meets pure DNA and everyone else needs to be whipped into submission to even dream of one day being like you. But if I tell you to overthrow Epstien Pedos that steal from you everyday you think I am bonkers because how dare someone from a primitive society tell you how to run yours. Colonial activism is you using even one instance of corruption in Russia to persuade the Russian people to turn on their own country under the guise of you wishing they could live liberated lives but really it's you wishing for destruction and then conversion to your values 

-Ah yes, the Russians will only defend their crappy way of life due to propaganda. Because if their lives really are crap then they must be tricked into keeping it. No way that they actually love their lives and want to continue living in the exact same way

-I know how far Westerners will go to protect their way of life. It's disgusting and unnecessary. Nobody is instigating anything it's always you guys that start it. Very aggressive people. Also what the hell are you protecting? The right for women to be prostitutes because "my body my choice". The right to abort 100 million babies or whatever the number is. The right for single mothers, estranged fathers, and confused children growing up in broken homes? The list goes on and on 

-You understand half the mindset which is that savagery of bombing anyone at the slightest threat. What you don't know is that you guys are the ones starting it. Another thing you don't know is you are your own biggest threat 

 

 

-Yet its Russia invading. 
Maybe if we attack Russia and claim you started it, that will work? No? Strange that. What if we had a really good reason in our minds? Still no? Huh.

Russia doesn't get to dictate what other countries, or in this case moronically entire continents and alliances can do. We can't turn around and tell Belarus it can't join a Russian alliance or we'll invade it. Is that a good reason to invade Belarus? No it'd be ludicrous, just like your country.

Again for the 1,000 time if you don't want everyone to join NATO stop threatening them! All this war did to me was prove why NATO had to exist, before it, America was pulling away, the EU wasn't anywhere near unified. NATO might have been a memory within a decade. Now it'll be around for another 50 or more years.

Oh and NOBODY in NATO officially promised Russia they wouldn't expand toward its borders; that is some offhand rumor from an informal meeting spoken by a Soviet and not on record. It's a repeated lie by the Russians that this was official.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_regarding_NATO's_eastward_expansion

Europeans tend to talk **** when you are threatening to nuke them. Yeah it happens. When you are meddling in their elections. Killing their friends and families over the border. Yeah it doesn't endear them to you, its true. Strange that. When you flood them with migrants, try to destabalise their countries political spheres internally. Yeah we don't like it, I know, shocking. Maybe the Russia victimhood ego is so far advanced that it can do literally anything and still feel victimised. Quite a feat. Maybe I used the word Karen on the wrong side here?

Colonial activism? I am telling you how Europe thinks. They believed you'd kill Putin rather than suffer him. They were wrong but largely due to your propaganda, you dismiss just how good it is. All countries use it; yours is just better. I could list the 50 things Russia has instigated, but what's the point? If you haven't read it the first time, you won't read it this time. Despite what you seem to think. If it moved out of Ukraine tomorrow, that'd be that. You don't get to play the Colonialism card and the Europeans don't want to get involved card at the same time. Pick one.

I had no delusion that this would be quick. I said it'd be a decade or more, at the very start of this. That was easy to see given the size of the countries involved, their history, and readiness. I personally thought we'd already have troops in Ukraine, or not fumble around half in half out of this conflict, not giving Ukraine what it needed until 4 years on, and you'd be pushed out. I underestimated just how much Europe wants to distance itself and freeze this conflict. As i've said 50 thousand times before, i'd rather never interact with Russia for the rest of my days, the very opposite of a colonial mindset.

-Oh and if Bhutan are invaded or has their lands stolen by an aggressive state, they don't live in peace. The only reason Bhutan exists is because of the Indian military capacity. There were better examples you could pick, but there would usually be a force guaranteeing their existence also.
 

Edited 6 hours ago by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

One day we won't be having these circular conversations based on propaganda and lies.

We'll just have the actual conversation about why the war started:

Russia considered Ukraine Russia.

*I'll have a watch of the video and maybe comment next time. So far, its advocating the Bhutan way which I answered above.

Edited 5 hours ago by BlueOak