Karmadhi

Why is Russia being held to a higher standard than the US

179 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura I think Israel should exist aside a Palestinian state too. And like me many more think that. Why not both? 

But you compartmentalize in your mind the existence of your state from the ethnic cleansing needed to create it and also sustain it.

Why noth both? Because the injustice from the taking of the land has created a hatred for you that will not die and will not give you peace in your nation.

You expect the taking of the land to just be forgiven and forgotten, but that's not how humans work.

Not to even mention that your top political leadership wants even more land and they run the show, not you.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not to even mention that your top political leadership wants even more land and they run the show, not you.

Yeah I agree that as long as Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich parties are in charge it won't change.

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But you compartmentalize in your mind the existence of your state from the ethnic cleansing needed to create it and also sustain it.

Why noth both? Because the injustice from the taking of the land has created a hatred for you that will not die and will not give you peace in your nation.

You expect the taking of the land to just be forgiven and forgotten, but that's not how humans work.

I understand. Is there a better alternative? I think it is the best solution that can be.

If Israel will give them a bit more areas as a compensation to the areas the settlements has taken, and make more measures to help them feel they also won somehow it can help to cool their hate, but it is hard to find a politician even in the center-left to think of it holistically enough.

I believe many Palestinians just want to live their lives and most of them won't be that ideological as they anyway stay in their homes they have for decades in Judea and Samaria.

Edited by Nivsch

🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation.

 

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18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I think it is the best solution that can be.

And the skunk thinks his smell is actually quite pleasant and beneficial for the world.

Edited by Leo Gura

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4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And the skunk thinks his smell is actually quite pleasant and beneficial for the world.

Do you think Two-State solution isn't a fair one?

Edited by Nivsch

🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation.

 

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@Leo Gura The thing is that to leave the Jews in 1945 without justice is also unfair.


🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation.

 

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3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The logic here is much more existential. Israelis literally need to kick Palestinians off the land in order to have a Jewish nation.

It is critical to understand that for understanding this conflict. It is a zero-sum game for them. Israel cannot exist without ethnic cleansing. Once you buy into the idea that Israel needs to exist, you accept the ethnic cleansing project.

Agreed - but on a different timeline. They literally needed (past tense) to cleanse Palestinians post Holocaust (existential survival logic) - in order to settle a majority Jewish state in a majority Arab land.

But today they have a state, one of the strongest militaries in the region, nuclear deterrence and superpower backing. So the existential survival logic doesn't exist today, only a existential threat to their supremacy and domination beyond their own state.

They play conflation Olympics between survival and supremacy - hence the deceptiveness on which an entire thread on the forum exists lol. Though I'm sure in some minds they do feel existential threatened - largely self inflated by their own propaganda, past trauma/paranoia and worldview - but speaking objectively it doesn't exist.

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura I think Israel should exist aside a Palestinian state too. And like me many more think that. Why not both? 

Bro we know not all Israeli's are as twisted as the far right but to mention it every chance with a disclaimer is tedious business.

Israels predicament is that it was a settler colonial project in response to a horrific Nazi project, but a settler colonial project that happened at the wrong time in history - during a time when de-colonization was happening and where that sort of way of doing things was phasing out of global norms.

This means that even if they achieve their aims (largely have) they will be hated by the world for doing so. It’s got a moral and legitimacy crisis for continuing to exist the way it is by not settling the injustice it caused at its inception and continuing that injustice till today.

Zio's missed the boat.

Edited by zazen

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15 minutes ago, zazen said:

So the existential survival logic doesn't exist today, only a existential threat to their supremacy and domination beyond their own state

I am partially disagree, but let's assume it was the case, still, you are missing out the micro dimension. Many citizens are in such an experience about themselves personally and it infilterates to the macro collective feeling.

Edited by Nivsch

🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation.

 

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27 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israels predicament is that it was a settler colonial project in response to a horrific Nazi project,

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

The idea of return has never left the Jews. Migration began in the mid-19th century. This is a radically different era from the 20th century. It's the era  of Napoleón , to give us an idea. Until the 20th century, infrastructure didn't allow for the coordination necessary for effective return.

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50 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura The thing is that to leave the Jews in 1945 without justice is also unfair.

It shows how little Jews actually learned. Wanting to always be the victim. That’s tough and at the same time they became the nazis themselves now. I’m Jewish btw. My grandma had to flee Germany for the USA. Was stateless, lost her dad to nazis, etc. I see Germany/Poland as my ancestral homeland. Genealogically we were there for 800+ years. I don’t need to spin a tale about a made up country that isn’t even 100 years old and how I’m indigenous to it. 

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Keep in mind there is no path towards peace and likely won’t ever be. Because peace means capitulation and surrendering to thieves who stole your land and killed your ancestors. There is also a LONG fight ahead too. It’s generational and Palestinians won’t forget this war or all what’s happened before since the Zionist inception of “Israel.” Palestine and the Arab world far outnumber the Jews in that region. There is a possibility of Israel gets it’s aid cut (very likely as boomers die) and other states recognize Palestine that Israel will be forced towards a day of reckoning for their crimes.

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15 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

There is a possibility of Israel gets it’s aid cut (very likely as boomers die) and other states recognize Palestine that Israel will be forced towards a day of reckoning for their crimes.

It's not a possibility. It's a certainty it'll happen in some form. The only question is which. A quiet thing, a few hundred years from now, where they apologise for their violent past - led up to by years of collapse? Or a violent reminder that actions have consequences in the short to medium term. Or after their state is gone and historians reflect on it a thousand years from now?

Though religion has had a strengthening of late. So it may sustain them another few hundred years in their fanatical, self-destructive ways.

Also, America turned around on its isolationist path somewhat when it realized it is in fact influenced by the world around it. The UK even did slightly, stopping that momentum in its tracks. 

But these patterns are obvious and predictable. In time a genocide is recognised, reported on and documented. Even if it's far in the future. Israel cut off their leg here to do the horrors they've done. They went from victims people felt sorry for, to sociopaths in the public mind.

And as this topic is on Russia: So did they. (They went from strongman with a valid grievance to a violent sociopath and now a crippled nation)

No double standards here.

Edited by BlueOak

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I wouldn’t say it’s certain. There’s a real possibility Israel destroys everything around them and builds up such a strategic advantage that it will be swept under the rug. Think about what the USA did to natives. But I think what’s more likely is some degree of aid will be cut and international support will be so overwhelming that they have to scale back their Zionism. It’s not likely Israel will have to give back all the land they stole. 

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58 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

There’s a real possibility Israel destroys everything around them and builds up such a strategic advantage that it will be swept under the rug

I think that the idea is more buying everything around them. Buying in the sense that Islamic states see the enormous economic advantages of collaborating with Israel and the US.

When Saudi Arabia recognizes the state of Israel, Israel will be officially legitimate in the eyes of Islam. It may take a while for that idea to take hold, but it will, and this will have a very important side effect: the opening of Islam. Something absolutely necessary for the humanity.

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1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

It's not a possibility. It's a certainty it'll happen in some form. The only question is which. A quiet thing, a few hundred years from now, where they apologise for their violent past - led up to by years of collapse? Or a violent reminder that actions have consequences in the short to medium term. Or after their state is gone and historians reflect on it a thousand years from now?

All of that is very well from our Western, emo perspective, but do you think Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Morocco, and the Islamic world in general see things the same way and think about the suffering of the Palestinians? They respect strength. If they perceive weakness, their contempt is absolute. Right now, the opinion of Israel in the Islamic world is better than it was before the destruction of Gaza. Islam doesn't respect compassion, respect determination and force. You could see how good friends are Putin and the Chechens now, when they were absolute enemies. 

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6 hours ago, Lyubov said:

It shows how little Jews actually learned. Wanting to always be the victim. That’s tough and at the same time they became the nazis themselves now.

You are talking exactly like the far right people from here talk about Gazans. Equally dellusional stance.


🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation.

 

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On 10.10.2025 at 2:27 PM, Karmadhi said:

What wrong did the thousands of Iraqi civilians do to be killed by USA bombing of Iraq?

Agree that invasion was mostly irrational.

Edited by Nivsch

🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation.

 

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4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

All of that is very well from our Western, emo perspective, but do you think Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Morocco, and the Islamic world in general see things the same way and think about the suffering of the Palestinians? They respect strength. If they perceive weakness, their contempt is absolute. Right now, the opinion of Israel in the Islamic world is better than it was before the destruction of Gaza. Islam doesn't respect compassion, respect determination and force. You could see how good friends are Putin and the Chechens now, when they were absolute enemies. 

I think they catalogue history like everyone else. They record the genocides of the previous cultures the same as anyone. So one option is this is just one more recorded atrocity and labeled as a reason to structure their societies based on force of arms and violence. 

What they think of it I cannot predict accurately in detail, but the above is just a snapshot of one possible outcome. Another might be hatred toward western influence, or Iranian influence, the Jewish people, or non arabs for example.

I can absolutely with near certainty tell you what it won't do. Make the area a better or less violent place to live in. War rarely does, genocide even less.

Being blunt:
1, Your conclusion lacks nuance.
2, Colonisers killing arabs makes few friends.

Its more murky than that because the Jewish people have been around the area for a long time, but Israel hasn't, and many of the countries you just referenced think of things in terms of thousands of years. A lot of them don't like each other or Iran's influence, but they do view Israel as a blip on the map (much as i've argued against this rationale to another poster). If I take the Russian or Iranian perspective, its a country that's barely been there for very long.

It would be hard to make a case that this genocide has increased Israel's safety longterm. I would say they are utterly reliant on American power now to exist. Short term an action was needed to remove Russian and Iranian influence in their backyard, but this was a very poorly executed example of it.

You could see how good friends are Putin and the Chechens now, when they were absolute enemies. 

https://minorityrights.org/communities/chechens/

Chechens have a pro Russian regime but they are not good friends. The second Moscow is weak enough they are one of the first, not the first, but one of the first areas that will break away. You mistake fear for friendship.

Edited by BlueOak

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@BlueOak Why doesnt Ukraine do a peace deal like Gaza did instead of fighting still?

I have seen in surveys that majority of Ukranians want to settle this in the negotiating table

https://news.gallup.com/poll/693203/ukrainian-support-war-effort-collapses.aspx

https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/how-many-ukrainians-support-compromise-with-1756651938.html

So why not try to make peace?

Of course they would have to make concessions but given their bad situation at the moment, it does not seem unreasonable

What do you think?

How much longer can Ukraine keep this up when they are running out of men and even many parties in Europe and USA are starting to get war fatigue

Not to mention for Russia this is now a huge sunk cost so they will go all in no matter what

Trump managed to get the war in Gaza to end, maybe he can do same for Ukraine 

Edited by Karmadhi

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2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Chechens have a pro Russian regime but they are not good friends. The second Moscow is weak enough they are one of the first, not the first, but one of the first areas that will break away. You mistake fear for friendship

That's true, Chechenia seems a hellish situation. They are "friends" because the other option is the devastation. 

2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

can absolutely with near certainty tell you what it won't do. Make the area a better or less violent place to live in. War rarely does, genocide even less.

It depends, sometimes sufficiently hard war creates the desire for peace. For example Japan or Germany. I'm not saying that this is the case of Palestine. Palestinian are still willing to fight, but the countries around could see that there is nothing to gain with this history and would be better admit the situation. I think that it will be the case, but everything is possible 

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