Karmadhi

Why is Russia being held to a higher standard than the US

133 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

Perfectly said. I personally think that both Russia and China are awesome countries with rich cultures nice people. There are a lot of cool and good aspects of Russian culture or Chinese culture that could be "better" than how the West does things.We are against the governance that those countries want to export to the west. The same way those countries are against the model of governance the west tries to export to them

The Chinese and Russians were not interested in exporting their governance models to the west. They were interested mainly in building up their economies.

Russia was a part of G8 till its protests over nato expansion (ignoring promises made to Gorbachev and Yeltsin ) made the west-centric G7 chuck them out. The Russians went on to create BRICS which is superior to G7 in terms of GDP and population coverage.

Quote

But my opinion is that the way western societies are ruled and governed is much better than how Russia or China is governed. I don't talk here about economics, sure China has a great economy, we could learn stuff from the Chinese about economics, but for the individual citizens life in Western democracies is literally heaven on earth.

The two world wars, created on the basis of military alliances originated in europe, killing over a hundred million people and which continues to traumatize europe at present.

The Nazis saw the Eastern european Slavs racially as subhumans and attempted to exterminate them with horrific atrocities till the Russians put an end to the Slav genocide which killed 25 milion Slavs as well as the Jewish genocide which killed six million jews.

Even social metrics like rising numbers of  homelesness, deaths due to hypothermia due to rising fuel prices, higher cost of living,spiralling healthcare costs, poverty , terrorist attacks, mass shootings, rising disparity of wealth between the western upper and lower classes shows that it is only a few of the sheltered wealthy and rich that lead a materially prosperous life in the west.

The third world war which can result in nuclear war and holocaust can turn the US, Europe and Russia into a nightmarish radioactive wasteland forever.

If you think this is a heaven on earth, you are seriously deluded.

Edited by Ajay0

Self-awareness is yoga. - Nisargadatta

Awareness is the great non-conceptual perfection. - Dzogchen

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. - Eckhart Tolle

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54 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

The Chinese and Russians were not interested in exporting their governance models to the west. They were interested mainly in building up their economies.

Russia was a part of G8 till its protests over nato expansion (ignoring promises made to Gorbachev and Yeltsin ) made the west-centric G7 chuck them out. The Russians went on to create BRICS which is superior to G7 in terms of GDP and population coverage.

The two world wars, created on the basis of military alliances originated in europe, killing over a hundred million people and which continues to traumatize europe at present.

The Nazis saw the Eastern european Slavs racially as subhumans and attempted to exterminate them with horrific atrocities till the Russians put an end to the Slav genocide which killed 25 milion Slavs as well as the Jewish genocide which killed six million jews.

Even social metrics like rising numbers of  homelesness, deaths due to hypothermia due to rising fuel prices, higher cost of living,spiralling healthcare costs, poverty , terrorist attacks, mass shootings, rising disparity of wealth between the western upper and lower classes shows that it is only a few of the sheltered wealthy and rich that lead a materially prosperous life in the west.

The third world war which can result in nuclear war and holocaust can turn the US, Europe and Russia into a nightmarish radioactive wasteland forever.

If you think this is a heaven on earth, you are seriously deluded.

Me? Deluded? Did you even analyze what you wrote? Have you heard of the principle think twice before you speak once? Have you studied even the most basic of history? 

Here I got you for having your mind infested by anti-western propaganda!

How the fuck can you say that that Nazi Germany was part of the West in 1940? Brah, The Nazis were on the same side with the Soviets in 1940. The West was staunchly opposing both Nazism and Communism. Nazi Germany had nothing to do with the West, they were sworn enemies of the West. 

And regarding your BS takes on the West, since my country has joined the western club of countries we have lots of stores where we can buy lots of food, lots of tools and basically anything we need. We can open businesses without bribing 10 politicians and 20 mafia thugs, we can go to the hospital without selling a cow to pay bribes to the doctors, we have roads, we were able to work abroad and bring money home to build houses, human rights are respected, we have a minimum wage that didn't exist before and much more benefits and freedoms that we didn't had before. And this is all in less than 20 years of EU membership. 

Homelessness? Bro in China and Russia if an oligarch wants your house, even though you have fully paid for it or you legally own it, those mafia thughs beat you with iron roads and break your knee caps until you sell it to them so that they can build a new car repair shop. 

Then talk about homelessness.

Edited by Daniel Balan

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45 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

The Chinese and Russians were not interested in exporting their governance models to the west. They were interested mainly in building up their economies.

 

Hahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣

That's why they spent billions to sway elections in literally every western country. That's why every social media site is filled with AI generated propaganda videos that bad mouth the west all day long. 

That's why twitter is flooded with Right Wing pro authoritarain content. 

That's why TikTok is full of "influencers" that come elections in Western countries, they flood the zone with shit and defamation videos on pro democratic parties or  candidates and praise and call "patriots" the wanna be dictators or far right nationalist parties.

That's why on every comment section on these platforms therey are thousands of bots commenting about how the pro democracy parties are full of thieves and how only the pro dictatorship (oligharch backed) patriots are pure and are worthy to lead the country.

Bro please, go sell the shit you are selling to someone else. I'm not buying it.


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18 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

Hahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣

That's why they spent billions to sway elections in literally every western country. That's why every social media site is filled with AI generated propaganda videos that bad mouth the west all day long. 

That's why twitter is flooded with Right Wing pro authoritarain content. 

That's why TikTok is full of "influencers" that come elections in Western countries, they flood the zone with shit and defamation videos on pro democratic parties or  candidates and praise and call "patriots" the wanna be dictators or far right nationalist parties.

That's why on every comment section on these platforms therey are thousands of bots commenting about how the pro democracy parties are full of thieves and how only the pro dictatorship (oligharch backed) patriots are pure and are worthy to lead the country.

Bro please, go sell the shit you are selling to someone else. I'm not buying it.

Russia and China are not selling their governance models to other countries here, but spending money to sway elections so that pro-russian and pro-chinese leaders are installed.

This maybe wrong, but it is still superior to the western practice of installing military dictators in south america under operation condor to remove democratically elected governments that instituted mass and poor-friendly policies which were not aligned with the exploitative policies (leading to high profits) of western companies operating there.


Self-awareness is yoga. - Nisargadatta

Awareness is the great non-conceptual perfection. - Dzogchen

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. - Eckhart Tolle

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9 hours ago, Lyubov said:

It’s kind of obnoxious though how every criticism of Russia is always countered by “what about the west.” This is such a stupid and intellectually dishonest take. I’m surprised more people aren’t banned from this section for this. We can discuss and condem western corruption and we can discuss and condem eastern corruption without having to be tribal and take sides like a bunch of moronic normie sheep who feed this belief system.

People only critique the other side of western corruption. So if you are on the left you will speak about the right and vice versa. Which is dishonest. Or people will say "we were fine before Trump, we were fine before Netanyahu" when it doesn't matter what singular leader is in power the results are literally the exact same because ultimately the people agree with those leaders

Critique the foundation of the west itself and then that will prove you are arguing in good faith 

Edited by Twentyfirst

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34 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

Me? Deluded? Did you even analyze what you wrote? Have you heard of the principle think twice before you speak once? Have you studied even the most basic of history? 

Here I got you for having your mind infested by anti-western propaganda!How the fuck can you say that that Nazi Germany was part of the West in 1940? Brah, The Nazis were on the same side with the Soviets in 1940.

Nazi Germany and Austria was part of western europe.  You cannot state that they were not part of the west. Anti-semitism was rampant in the west including the US at one time.

Also . Romania allied with Nazi Germany during World War II. Romanian leader Ion Antonescu was a fascist dictator and an enthusiastic proponent of the Holocaust. I have read of Romanian soldiers taking part in the nazi invasions of the eastern slav nations and took part in the anti-slav/jewish extermination campaign.

They were not part of western countries opposing nazism. After the Russians defeated the Nazis and advanced to Berlin triumphantly, the Romanians quickly switched allegiance to the western allied powers including Russia, which were hitherto their enemies, and proclaimed the losing nazis and fascists as their new enemies. 

For his role in the allegiance shift to the Russians and western allies , Romanian King Michael was awarded the Soviet "Order of Victory" by Stalin. 


Self-awareness is yoga. - Nisargadatta

Awareness is the great non-conceptual perfection. - Dzogchen

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. - Eckhart Tolle

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14 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Kid A what you call revolution Is it to expel a democratically elected government by force without waiting for elections?

About that of true and false, then we have to assume that what one side says is true and other is false. Ok, then I will choose one side and believe what that side says. It's simple, thanks, I was bit confused but not anymore 

And you choose the Russian narrative?

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Putin wants to turn Ukraine into Belarus. That is the proper analogy. And Belarus is aweful.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Nazi Germany and Austria was part of western europe.  You cannot state that they were not part of the west. Anti-semitism was rampant in the west including the US at one time.

Also . Romania allied with Nazi Germany during World War II. Romanian leader Ion Antonescu was a fascist dictator and an enthusiastic proponent of the Holocaust. I have read of Romanian soldiers taking part in the nazi invasions of the eastern slav nations and took part in the anti-slav/jewish extermination campaign.

They were not part of western countries opposing nazism. After the Russians defeated the Nazis and advanced to Berlin triumphantly, the Romanians quickly switched allegiance to the western allied powers including Russia, which were hitherto their enemies, and proclaimed the losing nazis and fascists as their new enemies. 

For his role in the allegiance shift to the Russians and western allies , Romanian King Michael was awarded the Soviet "Order of Victory" by Stalin. 

The west meant democracies and democratic institutions and human rights. Calling Nazi Germany a Western country is wrong. Nazi Germany was more alligned ideologically with the Roman Empire than the West. Soviet Union had nothing to do with the west. If it was even remotely resembling the west, there wouldn't have been necessary to fight a cold war with the west for half a century.

Unfortunately Romania was the second military force only behind the Nazi Wermacht, on the Eastern Front. Romanian soldiers together with German soldiers have done horrible things in that war. 

Romania has been part of the west only since 2007. 18 years of being a part of the west.

My main issue I have with your argument is that you falsely put Nazi Germany into the west. This is pure Russian propaganda. Only they want to portray the EU and NATO as some successor to Nazi Germany. Which is very false.

The west in Europe in the 1930's and 1940's consisted of France, Britain, Belgium, Portugal, Ireland, Switzerland, Sweeden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands. 

Edited by Daniel Balan

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1 hour ago, Kid A said:

And you choose the Russian narrative?

What narrative? That the US pushed for an illegal change of government, then crossed the red line by joining Ukraine in NATO to provoke Russia after 8 years of civil war , and five minutes later destroyed the Nord Stream to ruin Germany and sell its expensive gas?

Energy prices in Germany quadrupled and thousands of businesses went bankrupt. The crazy Germans got angry instead of being grateful, but luckily their president will always be at the US's disposal. And if for some reason Germans decide to vote for a party with a different tendency, their executives die mysteriously.

Edited by Breakingthewall

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10 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What narrative? That the US pushed for an illegal change of government, then crossed the red line by including Ukraine in NATO to provoke Russia, and five minutes later destroyed the Nord Stream to ruin Germany and sell its gas for five times more?

There is nothing illegal for the citizens of a country to revolt against their government when in the electoral campaign they promise closer ties and integration with the EU economy, only to do a U turn and start sucking Russian cock while betraying the expectations of the people that elected them.

It is called accountability. 

Such things are only "illegal" in Putin's Russia. Only there you must be forever the slave of the oligarchs that back Putin and any revolt is crushed immediately. 

People of Ukraine wanted their country to look like Germany not like Belarus. And this is nothing "Illegal". Illegal is to trap generations of humans in North Korea style dictatorships. 


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@Daniel Balan they can wait to the elections and vote against them . I know that in Ukraine is the only country in the world where the politicians say one thing and did another and it's dramatic, but they could wait one year and expulse them legally 

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19 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

The west meant democracies and democratic institutions and human rights.

Would that also accomodate western exploitative colonialism in Asia, Africa and south america and the atrocities committed over there !

Racism against Africans is still well-instituted in the west, and communists under Marx had supported Lincoln in the  american civil war for the freedom of the African laborers and in the civil rights movement for the political empowerment of the underprivileged and downtrodden blacks in the USA , as well as against apartheid in south africa. 

The US on the other hand designated the Nobel peace prize winning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist until 2008.

This is one of the reasons why the African union is mainly supporting Russia in the present conflict. alongside most countries in Asia and South america.

Do keep in mind that Nato countries including the US represents only 12% of the world population.


Self-awareness is yoga. - Nisargadatta

Awareness is the great non-conceptual perfection. - Dzogchen

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. - Eckhart Tolle

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2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Daniel Balan they can wait to the elections and vote against them . I know that in Ukraine is the only country in the world where the politicians say one thing and did another and it's dramatic, but they could wait one year and expulse them legally 

Bro, you don't understand the situation because you are a westerner, and you have lived all your life with the western comforts.

Western comforts for me have arrived in the last 8 years. It took 10 years of EU integration to finally have a bit of the comforts that you and your kin have experienced for generations. 

You don't understand what it means to live in a place like Russia. In a way Russia is a libertarian utopia. You only have something if you are strong enough to protect your possessions. If you don't have strong friends with connections, in a place like Russia you don't have ownership even for your own body. Literally. 

Do you think that people who have been caged for 50 generations in such a system would want to wait one more year so that spoiled people like you not to call it a CIA coup d'etat?


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6 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

Do you think that people who have been caged for 50 generations in such a system would want to wait one more year so that spoiled people like you not to call it a CIA coup d'etat?

No, it's much better start a war a destroy the country 

Btw, the new government was same or more corrupted than the former 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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Just now, Breakingthewall said:

No, it's much better start a war a destroy the country 

Who the fuck started the war? It was Russia who couldn't stand their colony breaking free from its chains, so they decided to decimate the whole population for daring to break free off their leash. 

It is like the entire Confederate South would go and exterminate all of Florida for wanting to abolish slavery and join the Union. It baffles me that you would have such a position. 


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40 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

Who the fuck started the war? It was Russia who couldn't stand their colony breaking free from its chains, so they decided to decimate the whole population for daring to break free off their leash. 

It is like the entire Confederate South would go and exterminate all of Florida for wanting to abolish slavery and join the Union. It baffles me that you would have such a position. 

Let's see, first, there's an illegal, forced change of government perpetrated by anti-Russian nationalists. Ukraine and Russia have a long tradition of problems with this, helping Hitler, Stephen Bandera, etc.

In Ukraine, there are like million people who identify as Russian and much more who speak Russian as main language, a large proportion of the country. These people feel threatened by a violent change of government and hold referendums. A civil war begins.

The Americans begin arming Ukraine and building fortifications, virus labs near military bases, pissing in Russia's face for eight years.

Then, at some point, they proclaim Ukraine's annexation into NATO, with the possibility (and certainty) of hosting nuclear weapons. Many analysts, including Kissinger, claim this will lead to Russia invading Ukraine, 100% certain.

Biden knows this perfectly well. He was behind Euromaidan with Victoria Nuland when he was vice president under Obama. In fact, his drug-addicted son was a director of Ukraine's largest gas company. The Nord Stream is then destroyed, and the US no longer enters a recession but grows by 2%. Ukraine is left in ruins with millions of exiles and Germany is in recession and all Europe weakened.

Just a scam, playing with the feelings of nationalist like puppets. 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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20 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Let's see, first, there's an illegal, forced change of government perpetrated by anti-Russian nationalists. Ukraine and Russia have a long tradition of problems with this, helping Hitler, Stephen Bandera, etc.

In Ukraine, there are 11 million people who identify as Russian, a large proportion of the country. These people feel threatened by a violent change of government and hold referendums. A civil war begins.

The Americans begin arming Ukraine and building fortifications, virus labs near military bases, pissing in Russia's face for eight years.

Then, at some point, they proclaim Ukraine's annexation into NATO, with the possibility (and certainty) of hosting nuclear weapons. Many analysts, including Kissinger, claim this will lead to Russia invading Ukraine, 100% certain.

Biden knows this perfectly well. He was behind Euromaidan with Victoria Nuland when he was vice president under Obama. In fact, his drug-addicted son was a director of Ukraine's largest gas company. The Nord Stream is then destroyed, and the US no longer enters a recession but grows by 2%. Ukraine is left in ruins with millions of exiles and Germany is in recession and all Europe weakened.

Just a scam, playing with the feelings of nationalist like puppets. 

Wow. It's time for some fact-checking:

Claim 1: "Illegal, forced change of government by anti-Russian nationalists"

FACT-CHECK: FALSE/MISLEADING

What actually happened:

Yanukovych fled on his own after his security forces killed 100+ protesters

Sources:

BBC: "Ukraine President Yanukovych flees Kiev" (Feb 22, 2014): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26304842

The Guardian interview with Yanukovych's own bodyguards: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/24/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-abode

Parliament voted 328-0 to remove him (including his own party members)

Sources:

Ukrainian Parliament official records: https://www.rada.gov.ua/news/Novyny/88188.html

Reuters: "Ukrainian parliament votes to oust Yanukovych": https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-parliament-idUSBREA1L0OU20140222

The interim government included Russian-speakers and Eastern Ukrainians

Sources:

Wilson Center analysis of government composition: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/ukraines-new-government

Carnegie Europe on linguistic diversity: https://carnegieeurope.eu/2014/03/10/ukraine-s-new-government-pub-54832

Far-right parties got only 2% in subsequent elections

Sources:

OSCE Election Observation Report May 2014: https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/119078

Central Election Commission results (Svoboda 4.71%, Right Sector 1.8%): https://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/vnd2014/wp300e?PT001F01=910

Claim 2: "Ukraine has tradition of helping Hitler, Stepan Bandera, etc."

FACT-CHECK: DISTORTED HISTORICAL CONTEXT

The complex reality:

Some Ukrainian nationalists did initially collaborate with Nazis

Sources:

Timothy Snyder: "The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing": https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500179

John-Paul Himka on OUN-UPA: https://www.academia.edu/2052133/

But Ukraine suffered enormously under Nazi occupation: 5-7 million killed

Sources:

US Holocaust Memorial Museum on Ukraine: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/kiev-and-babi-yar

Timothy Snyder, "Bloodlands" (2010), Yale University Press, pp. 411-412

2.5 million Ukrainians fought in Red Army against Hitler

Sources:

David Glantz, "When Titans Clashed" p. 302 (University Press of Kansas, 1995)

Soviet archives via Wilson Center: https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/117306

Modern Ukraine has Jewish president (Zelensky) and had Jewish PM (Groysman)

Sources:

Times of Israel on Zelensky victory: https://www.timesofisrael.com/zelensky-wins-ukraines-presidential-race-in-landslide/

JTA on Groysman appointment: https://www.jta.org/2016/04/14/global/ukraine-gets-its-first-jewish-prime-minister-volodymyr-groysman

Claim 3: "11 million Russians felt threatened and held referendums"

FACT-CHECK: MISLEADING

Reality of the "referendums":

Conducted under military occupation by Russian forces

Sources:

UN Resolution 68/262 declaring referendum invalid: https://www.un.org/press/en/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

Venice Commission legal opinion: https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(2014)002-e

No legitimate international observers present

Sources:

OSCE declining to observe: https://www.osce.org/cio/116313

EU non-recognition statement: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2014/03/17/declaration-on-crimea/

Many Russian-speakers opposed Russian intervention

Sources:

Rating Group polling in Kharkiv: https://ratinggroup.ua/research/ukraine/ocenki_harkovchan_situacii_v_gorode_27-28_fevralya_2022.html

KIIS survey of Russian-speakers: https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1043

Russian-speaking cities (Kharkiv, Odesa) didn't rise up

Sources:

International Crisis Group: "Nobody Wants Us": https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/eastern-europe/ukraine/252-nobody-wants-us-gradual-reintegration-eastern-ukraine

Carnegie analysis on Kharkiv: https://carnegiemoscow.org/2014/09/18/why-kharkiv-didn-t-follow-donetsk-and-luhansk-pub-56935

Claim 4: "A civil war begins"

FACT-CHECK: FALSE - It was Russian invasion, not civil war

Evidence of Russian involvement:

Key "separatist" leaders were Russian citizens

Sources:

BBC on Borodai's Russian citizenship: https://www.bbc.com/russian/russia/2014/05/140515_tr_donetsk_boroday

Bellingcat on Girkin's FSB service: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/14/identifying-the-separatists-linked-to-the-downing-of-mh17/

Girkin admitted: "I pulled the trigger of war"

Sources:

Original interview in Zavtra newspaper: https://zavtra.ru/blogs/kto_ti_strelok

Moscow Times translation: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598

Russian military units documented

Sources:

Guardian on captured paratroopers: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/russia-admits-soldiers-ukraine

NATO satellite evidence: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_112193.htm

OSCE monitoring reports: https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/156571

Claim 5: "Americans building virus labs near military bases"

FACT-CHECK: CONSPIRACY THEORY

What these labs actually are:

Soviet-era facilities US helped secure since 2005

Sources:

DoD Biological Threat Reduction Program documents: https://media.defense.gov/2022/Mar/11/2002954612/-1/-1/0/FACT-SHEET-THE-DEPARTMENT-OF-DEFENSE'S-COOPERATIVE-THREAT-REDUCTION-PROGRAM-BIOLOGICAL-THREAT-REDUCTION-PROGRAM-ACTIVITIES-IN-UKRAINE.PDF

Nunn-Lugar Program overview: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/nuke/R43143.pdf

Public health labs studying routine diseases

Sources:

WHO statement on labs: https://www.who.int/news/item/11-03-2022-who-advises-ukraine-to-destroy-high-threat-pathogens-in-health-laboratories

Science Magazine fact-check: https://www.science.org/content/article/fact-checking-russian-biological-weapons-claims

No evidence of bioweapons

Sources:

UN Security Council finding no evidence: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14840.doc.htm

US State Department fact sheet: https://www.state.gov/the-kremlins-allegations-of-chemical-and-biological-weapons-laboratories-in-ukraine/

Claim 6: "Ukraine's annexation into NATO with nuclear weapons"

FACT-CHECK: FALSE

The actual NATO situation:

Ukraine was NOT offered NATO membership before invasion

Sources:

NATO Bucharest Summit 2008 - no MAP offered: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_8443.htm

NATO Secretary General Jan 2022: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_190966.htm

Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in 1994

Sources:

Budapest Memorandum text: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 3007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

Arms Control Association analysis: https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Ukraine-Nuclear-Weapons

No nuclear weapons in new NATO states

Sources:

Federation of American Scientists report: https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/

NATO nuclear policy: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50068.htm

Claim 7: "Kissinger said invasion 100% certain"

FACT-CHECK: MISREPRESENTATION

What Kissinger actually said:

Advocated neutrality BUT with Ukrainian sovereignty

Sources:

Washington Post op-ed (March 2014): https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

Changed position after invasion to support NATO membership

Sources:

Financial Times on Davos speech: https://www.ft.com/content/6be7dd1d-f509-44a5-88fe-69f3cb93816e

The Spectator article (Dec 2022): https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/henry-kissinger-how-to-avoid-another-world-war/

Most experts didn't predict full invasion

Sources:

Foreign Affairs expert survey: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-02-21/what-if-russia-wins

RAND Corporation assessment: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA1971-1.html

Claim 8: "Biden behind Euromaidan with Victoria Nuland"

FACT-CHECK: CONSPIRACY THEORY

What actually happened:

Millions of Ukrainians participated spontaneously

Sources:

BBC day-by-day coverage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26232891

Pew Research: 58% supported Euromaidan: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

Nuland call discussed post-Yanukovych transition, not causing protests

Sources:

BBC transcript and context: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Politifact on "$5 billion" claim: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

Biden conducted normal diplomacy as VP

Sources:

White House archives: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/22/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine

CFR timeline: https://www.cfr.org/timeline/us-ukraine-relations

Claim 9: "Hunter Biden director of Ukraine's largest gas company"

FACT-CHECK: PARTIALLY TRUE BUT MISLEADING

The actual facts:

Hunter was on Burisma board 2014-2019 (problematic but legal)

Sources:

Burisma announcement: https://web.archive.org/web/20140517093402/http://burisma.com/en/media/company-news/

Senate report: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC_Finance_Report_FINAL.pdf

Burisma is ONE OF largest, not THE largest (Naftogaz is largest)

Sources:

Naftogaz annual reports: http://www.naftogaz.com/www/3/nakweben.nsf/0/3E92FC8C4C4EF585C2257EDD006F1485?OpenDocument

Ukrainian energy sector analysis: https://www.oecd.org/ukraine-hub/policy-responses/ukraine-s-energy-sector-and-the-energy-community-treaty-d187a44f/

This happened AFTER Euromaidan, not before

Sources:

Reuters timeline: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunter-biden-ukraine-idUSKBN1WX1P7

New York Times investigation: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us/politics/biden-son-ukraine.html

No evidence of influence on Joe Biden's policy

Sources:

Republican Senate investigation found nothing: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC_Finance_Report_FINAL.pdf

Ukrainian prosecutors confirmed: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-ukraine-idUSKBN1XU2N7

Claim 10: "Nord Stream destroyed... US grows 2%"

FACT-CHECK: MISLEADING CORRELATION

The facts:

No definitive proof who destroyed Nord Stream

Sources:

Swedish investigation closed without conclusion: https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/02/the-swedish-prosecutor-closes-investigation-concerning-nord-stream/

German investigation ongoing: https://www.generalbundesanwalt.de/DE/Home/home_node.html

US growth from post-COVID recovery, not Nord Stream

Sources:

Bureau of Economic Analysis GDP data: https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross-domestic-product-fourth-quarter-and-year-2022-advance-estimate

Federal Reserve analysis: https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/beigebook202301.htm

US was already major LNG exporter

Sources:

Energy Information Administration data: https://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/weekly/

IEA Gas Market Report: https://www.iea.org/reports/gas-market-report-q1-2023

Claim 11: "Ukraine left in ruins with millions of exiles"

FACT-CHECK: TRUE BUT MISATTRIBUTED

Who's actually responsible:

Russia is bombing Ukrainian cities

Sources:

UN Human Rights documentation: https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/01/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-9-january-2023

ICC war crimes warrants: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and

$411 billion in damage from Russian attacks

Sources:

World Bank damage assessment: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2023/03/23/updated-ukraine-recovery-and-reconstruction-needs-assessment

UN reconstruction estimates: https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-updated-damage-estimates-point-recovery-and-reconstruction-needs-411-billion

Refugees fleeing Russian invasion

Sources:

UNHCR: 6.5 million refugees: https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine

IOM displacement tracking: https://dtm.iom.int/ukraine

Additional Context: NATO Expansion Narrative

FACT-CHECK: MISLEADING FRAMING

Reality of NATO expansion:

Countries voluntarily join defensive alliance

Sources:

NATO Treaty Article 10 on voluntary accession: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm

NATO enlargement study: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm

Eastern Europeans sought protection from Russia

Sources:

Polish Ministry archives: https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/nato

Baltic security concerns per RAND: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1577.html

No written promise against expansion exists

Sources:

Gorbachev: "Topic not discussed": https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

National Security Archive documents: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard

NATO actually reduced forces before 2014

Sources:

Congressional Research Service report (2013): https://sgp.fas.org/crs/row/R42532.pdf

IISS Military Balance showing troop reductions: https://www.iiss.org/publications/the-military-balance

Summary Pattern

This narrative demonstrates classic disinformation techniques:

Victim-aggressor reversal - Ukraine defending = aggression

Cherry-picked facts mixed with fabrications

Conspiracy theories (biolabs, puppet masters)

Denying Ukrainian agency - Ukrainians can't want democracy independently

False correlations - US growth caused by Nord Stream

Sources for disinformation analysis:

EU DisinfoLab reports: https://www.disinfo.eu/

Atlantic Council DFR Lab: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/programs/digital-forensic-research-lab/

Bellingcat investigations: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/ukraine/

StopFake fact-checking: https://www.stopfake.org/en/main/

The fundamental fact remains: Russia invaded a sovereign nation. Whatever grievances existed could have been addressed diplomatically. The destruction you correctly identify is the result of Russian aggression, not Western manipulation.

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26 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Let's see, first, there's an illegal, forced change of government perpetrated by anti-Russian nationalists. Ukraine and Russia have a long tradition of problems with this, helping Hitler, Stephen Bandera, etc.

In Ukraine, there are like million people who identify as Russian and much more who speak Russian as main language, a large proportion of the country. These people feel threatened by a violent change of government and hold referendums. A civil war begins.

The Americans begin arming Ukraine and building fortifications, virus labs near military bases, pissing in Russia's face for eight years.

Then, at some point, they proclaim Ukraine's annexation into NATO, with the possibility (and certainty) of hosting nuclear weapons. Many analysts, including Kissinger, claim this will lead to Russia invading Ukraine, 100% certain.

Biden knows this perfectly well. He was behind Euromaidan with Victoria Nuland when he was vice president under Obama. In fact, his drug-addicted son was a director of Ukraine's largest gas company. The Nord Stream is then destroyed, and the US no longer enters a recession but grows by 2%. Ukraine is left in ruins with millions of exiles and Germany is in recession and all Europe weakened.

Just a scam, playing with the feelings of nationalist like puppets. 

Nice gaslighting. Unfortunately nothing you have said it is true. My country has been in NATO since 2004 and no nuclear weapons have been put here, hell we barely have any Patriots anti missle systems, we have like few military bases with like 10.000 foreign troops stationed here. The baltics are the same, and as of now Finlad is exactly the same as my country. So the nuclear and virus BS holds no water whatsoever. 

As I told you earlier, having your people demand accountability from the government after those Russian dick riders betrayed their public is nothing illegal. Hell, if Trump would become WOKE and stated to side with the liberals the Maga fanatics would literally kill him. And that won't be a KGB coup. Just a normal reaction of the people when you fool them with fake promises and then you do the exact opposite.

You framing the Ukrainians as nazis is just Russian gaslighting. Bandera? Bro have you heard of holodomor? After the Russians mass starved 5 million people do you not acknowledge that the Ukrainians wanted to break free from the Russian vice since at least the first world war? Bandera is a natural reaction from the Ukrainian society during WW2 when the Russians mass starved the Ukrainians in the 1930's doing a similar genocide similar to the holocaust. When you do a Holocaust onto the Ukrainians don't be surprised that extreme hatred towards you develops in form of Ukrainian nationalism. 

This is the last post I'm doing debating you. You are siding with the ones that behave the same way the Roman empire behaved towards tribes and nations that didn't want to obey them. I hope you are proud of yourself. 


https://x.com/DanyBalan7 - Please follow me on twitter! 

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11 minutes ago, Kid A said:
14 minutes ago, Kid A said:

Wow. It's time for some fact-checking:

Claim 1: "Illegal, forced change of government by anti-Russian nationalists"

FACT-CHECK: FALSE/MISLEADING

What actually happened:

Yanukovych fled on his own after his security forces killed 100+ protesters

Sources:

BBC: "Ukraine President Yanukovych flees Kiev" (Feb 22, 2014): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26304842

The Guardian interview with Yanukovych's own bodyguards: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/24/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-abode

Parliament voted 328-0 to remove him (including his own party members)

Sources:

Ukrainian Parliament official records: https://www.rada.gov.ua/news/Novyny/88188.html

Reuters: "Ukrainian parliament votes to oust Yanukovych": https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-parliament-idUSBREA1L0OU20140222

The interim government included Russian-speakers and Eastern Ukrainians

Sources:

Wilson Center analysis of government composition: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/ukraines-new-government

Carnegie Europe on linguistic diversity: https://carnegieeurope.eu/2014/03/10/ukraine-s-new-government-pub-54832

Far-right parties got only 2% in subsequent elections

Sources:

OSCE Election Observation Report May 2014: https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/119078

Central Election Commission results (Svoboda 4.71%, Right Sector 1.8%): https://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/vnd2014/wp300e?PT001F01=910

Claim 2: "Ukraine has tradition of helping Hitler, Stepan Bandera, etc."

FACT-CHECK: DISTORTED HISTORICAL CONTEXT

The complex reality:

Some Ukrainian nationalists did initially collaborate with Nazis

Sources:

Timothy Snyder: "The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing": https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500179

John-Paul Himka on OUN-UPA: https://www.academia.edu/2052133/

But Ukraine suffered enormously under Nazi occupation: 5-7 million killed

Sources:

US Holocaust Memorial Museum on Ukraine: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/kiev-and-babi-yar

Timothy Snyder, "Bloodlands" (2010), Yale University Press, pp. 411-412

2.5 million Ukrainians fought in Red Army against Hitler

Sources:

David Glantz, "When Titans Clashed" p. 302 (University Press of Kansas, 1995)

Soviet archives via Wilson Center: https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/117306

Modern Ukraine has Jewish president (Zelensky) and had Jewish PM (Groysman)

Sources:

Times of Israel on Zelensky victory: https://www.timesofisrael.com/zelensky-wins-ukraines-presidential-race-in-landslide/

JTA on Groysman appointment: https://www.jta.org/2016/04/14/global/ukraine-gets-its-first-jewish-prime-minister-volodymyr-groysman

Claim 3: "11 million Russians felt threatened and held referendums"

FACT-CHECK: MISLEADING

Reality of the "referendums":

Conducted under military occupation by Russian forces

Sources:

UN Resolution 68/262 declaring referendum invalid: https://www.un.org/press/en/2014/ga11493.doc.htm

Venice Commission legal opinion: https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(2014)002-e

No legitimate international observers present

Sources:

OSCE declining to observe: https://www.osce.org/cio/116313

EU non-recognition statement: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2014/03/17/declaration-on-crimea/

Many Russian-speakers opposed Russian intervention

Sources:

Rating Group polling in Kharkiv: https://ratinggroup.ua/research/ukraine/ocenki_harkovchan_situacii_v_gorode_27-28_fevralya_2022.html

KIIS survey of Russian-speakers: https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1043

Russian-speaking cities (Kharkiv, Odesa) didn't rise up

Sources:

International Crisis Group: "Nobody Wants Us": https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/eastern-europe/ukraine/252-nobody-wants-us-gradual-reintegration-eastern-ukraine

Carnegie analysis on Kharkiv: https://carnegiemoscow.org/2014/09/18/why-kharkiv-didn-t-follow-donetsk-and-luhansk-pub-56935

Claim 4: "A civil war begins"

FACT-CHECK: FALSE - It was Russian invasion, not civil war

Evidence of Russian involvement:

Key "separatist" leaders were Russian citizens

Sources:

BBC on Borodai's Russian citizenship: https://www.bbc.com/russian/russia/2014/05/140515_tr_donetsk_boroday

Bellingcat on Girkin's FSB service: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/14/identifying-the-separatists-linked-to-the-downing-of-mh17/

Girkin admitted: "I pulled the trigger of war"

Sources:

Original interview in Zavtra newspaper: https://zavtra.ru/blogs/kto_ti_strelok

Moscow Times translation: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598

Russian military units documented

Sources:

Guardian on captured paratroopers: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/russia-admits-soldiers-ukraine

NATO satellite evidence: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_112193.htm

OSCE monitoring reports: https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/156571

Claim 5: "Americans building virus labs near military bases"

FACT-CHECK: CONSPIRACY THEORY

What these labs actually are:

Soviet-era facilities US helped secure since 2005

Sources:

DoD Biological Threat Reduction Program documents: https://media.defense.gov/2022/Mar/11/2002954612/-1/-1/0/FACT-SHEET-THE-DEPARTMENT-OF-DEFENSE'S-COOPERATIVE-THREAT-REDUCTION-PROGRAM-BIOLOGICAL-THREAT-REDUCTION-PROGRAM-ACTIVITIES-IN-UKRAINE.PDF

Nunn-Lugar Program overview: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/nuke/R43143.pdf

Public health labs studying routine diseases

Sources:

WHO statement on labs: https://www.who.int/news/item/11-03-2022-who-advises-ukraine-to-destroy-high-threat-pathogens-in-health-laboratories

Science Magazine fact-check: https://www.science.org/content/article/fact-checking-russian-biological-weapons-claims

No evidence of bioweapons

Sources:

UN Security Council finding no evidence: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14840.doc.htm

US State Department fact sheet: https://www.state.gov/the-kremlins-allegations-of-chemical-and-biological-weapons-laboratories-in-ukraine/

Claim 6: "Ukraine's annexation into NATO with nuclear weapons"

FACT-CHECK: FALSE

The actual NATO situation:

Ukraine was NOT offered NATO membership before invasion

Sources:

NATO Bucharest Summit 2008 - no MAP offered: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_8443.htm

NATO Secretary General Jan 2022: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_190966.htm

Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in 1994

Sources:

Budapest Memorandum text: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 3007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

Arms Control Association analysis: https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Ukraine-Nuclear-Weapons

No nuclear weapons in new NATO states

Sources:

Federation of American Scientists report: https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/

NATO nuclear policy: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50068.htm

Claim 7: "Kissinger said invasion 100% certain"

FACT-CHECK: MISREPRESENTATION

What Kissinger actually said:

Advocated neutrality BUT with Ukrainian sovereignty

Sources:

Washington Post op-ed (March 2014): https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

Changed position after invasion to support NATO membership

Sources:

Financial Times on Davos speech: https://www.ft.com/content/6be7dd1d-f509-44a5-88fe-69f3cb93816e

The Spectator article (Dec 2022): https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/henry-kissinger-how-to-avoid-another-world-war/

Most experts didn't predict full invasion

Sources:

Foreign Affairs expert survey: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-02-21/what-if-russia-wins

RAND Corporation assessment: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA1971-1.html

Claim 8: "Biden behind Euromaidan with Victoria Nuland"

FACT-CHECK: CONSPIRACY THEORY

What actually happened:

Millions of Ukrainians participated spontaneously

Sources:

BBC day-by-day coverage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26232891

Pew Research: 58% supported Euromaidan: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

Nuland call discussed post-Yanukovych transition, not causing protests

Sources:

BBC transcript and context: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Politifact on "$5 billion" claim: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

Biden conducted normal diplomacy as VP

Sources:

White House archives: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/22/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine

CFR timeline: https://www.cfr.org/timeline/us-ukraine-relations

Claim 9: "Hunter Biden director of Ukraine's largest gas company"

FACT-CHECK: PARTIALLY TRUE BUT MISLEADING

The actual facts:

Hunter was on Burisma board 2014-2019 (problematic but legal)

Sources:

Burisma announcement: https://web.archive.org/web/20140517093402/http://burisma.com/en/media/company-news/

Senate report: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC_Finance_Report_FINAL.pdf

Burisma is ONE OF largest, not THE largest (Naftogaz is largest)

Sources:

Naftogaz annual reports: http://www.naftogaz.com/www/3/nakweben.nsf/0/3E92FC8C4C4EF585C2257EDD006F1485?OpenDocument

Ukrainian energy sector analysis: https://www.oecd.org/ukraine-hub/policy-responses/ukraine-s-energy-sector-and-the-energy-community-treaty-d187a44f/

This happened AFTER Euromaidan, not before

Sources:

Reuters timeline: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunter-biden-ukraine-idUSKBN1WX1P7

New York Times investigation: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us/politics/biden-son-ukraine.html

No evidence of influence on Joe Biden's policy

Sources:

Republican Senate investigation found nothing: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC_Finance_Report_FINAL.pdf

Ukrainian prosecutors confirmed: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-ukraine-idUSKBN1XU2N7

Claim 10: "Nord Stream destroyed... US grows 2%"

FACT-CHECK: MISLEADING CORRELATION

The facts:

No definitive proof who destroyed Nord Stream

Sources:

Swedish investigation closed without conclusion: https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/02/the-swedish-prosecutor-closes-investigation-concerning-nord-stream/

German investigation ongoing: https://www.generalbundesanwalt.de/DE/Home/home_node.html

US growth from post-COVID recovery, not Nord Stream

Sources:

Bureau of Economic Analysis GDP data: https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross-domestic-product-fourth-quarter-and-year-2022-advance-estimate

Federal Reserve analysis: https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/beigebook202301.htm

US was already major LNG exporter

Sources:

Energy Information Administration data: https://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/weekly/

IEA Gas Market Report: https://www.iea.org/reports/gas-market-report-q1-2023

Claim 11: "Ukraine left in ruins with millions of exiles"

FACT-CHECK: TRUE BUT MISATTRIBUTED

Who's actually responsible:

Russia is bombing Ukrainian cities

Sources:

UN Human Rights documentation: https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/01/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-9-january-2023

ICC war crimes warrants: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and

$411 billion in damage from Russian attacks

Sources:

World Bank damage assessment: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2023/03/23/updated-ukraine-recovery-and-reconstruction-needs-assessment

UN reconstruction estimates: https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-updated-damage-estimates-point-recovery-and-reconstruction-needs-411-billion

Refugees fleeing Russian invasion

Sources:

UNHCR: 6.5 million refugees: https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine

IOM displacement tracking: https://dtm.iom.int/ukraine

Additional Context: NATO Expansion Narrative

FACT-CHECK: MISLEADING FRAMING

Reality of NATO expansion:

Countries voluntarily join defensive alliance

Sources:

NATO Treaty Article 10 on voluntary accession: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm

NATO enlargement study: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm

Eastern Europeans sought protection from Russia

Sources:

Polish Ministry archives: https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/nato

Baltic security concerns per RAND: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1577.html

No written promise against expansion exists

Sources:

Gorbachev: "Topic not discussed": https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

National Security Archive documents: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard

NATO actually reduced forces before 2014

Sources:

Congressional Research Service report (2013): https://sgp.fas.org/crs/row/R42532.pdf

IISS Military Balance showing troop reductions: https://www.iiss.org/publications/the-military-balance

Summary Pattern

This narrative demonstrates classic disinformation techniques:

Victim-aggressor reversal - Ukraine defending = aggression

Cherry-picked facts mixed with fabrications

Conspiracy theories (biolabs, puppet masters)

Denying Ukrainian agency - Ukrainians can't want democracy independently

False correlations - US growth caused by Nord Stream

Sources for disinformation analysis:

EU DisinfoLab reports: https://www.disinfo.eu/

Atlantic Council DFR Lab: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/programs/digital-forensic-research-lab/

Bellingcat investigations: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/ukraine/

StopFake fact-checking: https://www.stopfake.org/en/main/

The fundamental fact remains: Russia invaded a sovereign nation. Whatever grievances existed could have been addressed diplomatically. The destruction you correctly identify is the result of Russian aggression, not Western manipulation.

 

Sure, sure, there are no proofs about the Nord stream. Sorry, those arguments are compelling. If I told you that Hitler didn't like Jews, you could provide a huge pile of outraged data claiming that Hitler loved Jews, but that they wanted to commit suicide, and Hitler hospitalized them to prevent such suicides. He would personally sing them Hebrew songs before they went to sleep, but the ungrateful ones still committed suicide.

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