Why is Russia being held to a higher standard than the US

[Karmadhi]

13 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Why haven't you included China in this list? For all the atrocities they've committed. Iran for all the weapons its supplied to kill Ukranian civilians? Turkey or Iran for their actions in Syria?

I specifically talked about invasions on my thread

Then when Leo made it about annexation of land, I made it about that too

Iran did not invade anyone, neither did China

To me invading or bullying other countries is another level of asshole than your bullying your own.

But that is just how i see it

North Korea is far worse than China on its citizens using that paradigm.

If i start shitting on countries that supply weapons to conflicts then i will have to include half the world

 

Edited Sunday at 12:32 PM by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

Saying that Russia wants to annex another country is not accurate. Russia wants to annex a part of Ukraine populated by Russians who want to be Russia and who are at war with Ukrainian nationalism. It's a unique situation, and it's been greatly exacerbated by the US to make money. 

[Kid A]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Saying that Russia wants to annex another country is not accurate. Russia wants to annex a part of Ukraine populated by Russians who want to be Russia and who are at war with Ukrainian nationalism.

After 20 years of Russian disinformation warfare, that is.

[Breakingthewall]

17 minutes ago, Kid A said:

After 20 years of Russian disinformation warfare, that is.

What are you talking about? It's easy to find what really happened. Maybe not for you, but for anyone really interested in the chain of events and understanding is easy.

[Kid A]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What are you talking about? It's easy to find what really happened. Maybe not for you, but for anyone really interested in the chain of events and understanding is easy.

Here's Claude's summary of it:

I'll provide a medium-length comprehensive analysis of Russian disinformation warfare against Ukraine since 2004, with fact-checks confirming false narratives.

The Orange Revolution Era (2004-2008)

The Poisoning and Initial Protests

When Viktor Yushchenko was poisoned with dioxin in September 2004, Russian media launched a multi-pronged disinformation campaign. They first denied the poisoning occurred [FALSE: International toxicologists in Austria, Switzerland, and Germany independently confirmed TCDD dioxin levels 1,000 times normal], then claimed he was an alcoholic who damaged his own face [FALSE: Medical evidence clearly showed dioxin poisoning], and finally suggested it was staged for Western sympathy [FALSE: Nearly fatal poisoning documented by multiple specialists].

During the Orange Revolution protests (November 2004-January 2005), Russian state media and affiliated outlets created an alternate reality:

Protesters were allegedly paid $50-100 per day by American NGOs [FALSE: No evidence ever produced; millions participated spontaneously after fraudulent election]

George Soros and the CIA orchestrated a coup [FALSE: While Western NGOs supported civil society, the protests were indigenous response to election fraud documented by OSCE observers]

"Trains of nationalists" from Western Ukraine were coming to attack Russian speakers [FALSE: Protests included massive participation from Russian-speaking regions; no ethnic violence occurred]

Orange color was deliberately chosen to provoke associations with Ukrainian nationalist movements [FALSE: Simply Yushchenko's campaign color with no historical connection]

Post-Revolution Destabilization Campaign (2005-2008)

After the revolution's success, Russia established institutional disinformation infrastructure. The "Institute of CIS Countries" coordinated information warfare, while "anti-orange" youth movements like Proryv received Russian funding. During the 2006 and 2009 gas conflicts, Russian media portrayed Ukraine as "stealing European gas" [FALSE: Contractual disputes over pricing; Ukraine was paying below-market rates per existing agreements].

Russian-funded media promoted the "Novorossiya" (New Russia) concept, claiming eight Ukrainian oblasts were historically Russian territory [HISTORICAL MANIPULATION: These territories were ethnically diverse, including Ukrainians, Jews, Greeks, Tatars, Germans; never exclusively Russian]. They organized pseudo-academic conferences declaring Ukrainian statehood "artificial" [FALSE: Ukrainian national identity, language, and culture developed over centuries independently].

The Yanukovych Interlude (2010-2013)

Soft Power Infiltration

During Viktor Yanukovych's presidency, Russia shifted to subtler influence operations while preparing for potential escalation. Russian businesses acquired major Ukrainian media outlets through proxy oligarchs. The "Russian World" (Russkiy Mir) foundation expanded cultural centers promoting civilizational unity [IDEOLOGICAL MANIPULATION: Soft power tool to justify future intervention].

Anti-EU Association Campaign (2013)

As the Vilnius Summit approached, Russian media intensified disinformation about the EU Association Agreement:

Economic catastrophe predictions claimed Ukraine would lose $100 billion [FALSE: Manufactured numbers with no economic basis]

EU membership would require legalizing same-sex marriage [FALSE: Association agreement contained no social policy requirements]

Polish farmers would buy all Ukrainian farmland [FALSE: Land moratorium remained in place]

Ukrainian products couldn't meet EU standards and would be banned [FALSE: Agreement included transition periods and assistance]

70% of Ukrainians opposed EU association [FALSE: Independent polls consistently showed majority support]

Euromaidan - Information Warfare Escalation (November 2013 - February 2014)

Phase 1: Minimization and Dismissal (November 21 - December 1, 2013)

Russian media initially dismissed protests as "a few hundred students manipulated by Western grants" [FALSE: Hundreds of thousands participated within days]. After Berkut special forces brutally beat students on November 30, Russian media claimed students "provoked" police with "extremist actions" [FALSE: Video evidence showed peaceful students attacked while sleeping].

Phase 2: Demonization and Fear-mongering (December 2013 - January 2014)

As protests grew, Russian propaganda shifted to presenting an existential threat:

All protesters were labeled "Banderovtsy" (followers of WWII-era nationalist Stepan Bandera) [FALSE: Protests included diverse political views; far-right represented tiny minority]

"Armed militants from Lviv" were supposedly seizing government buildings [FALSE: Protests remained overwhelmingly peaceful despite government violence]

Protesters were allegedly given drugs and alcohol to maintain aggression [FALSE: Maidan kitchens famously served tea, not alcohol; no evidence of drug distribution]

"NATO instructors" were training extremists in camps [FALSE: No evidence of any NATO involvement]

Plans existed to ban Russian language immediately after victory [DISTORTION: While Parliament briefly considered repealing 2012 language law, it was quickly dropped; Russian was never banned]

Russian Channel One created fake witness testimonies about "trains of Galician extremists" coming to kill Russian speakers [STAGED: Multiple "witnesses" identified as paid actors]. Life News produced segments showing "terrified Kyiv residents fleeing the city" [FAKE: Actors performed in multiple videos with different identities].

Phase 3: The Sniper Massacre (February 18-22, 2014)

When government snipers killed over 100 protesters, Russian media immediately launched multiple false narratives:

Opposition leaders ordered snipers to shoot their own supporters for sympathy [FALSE: Ballistic evidence, videos, and investigations confirmed shots from government-controlled positions]

"Georgian mercenaries" hired by the opposition were responsible [FABRICATED: "Mercenaries" who "confessed" on Russian TV were actors; Georgia officially denied involvement]

Shots came from opposition-controlled buildings [FALSE: Forensic reconstruction proved trajectories from government positions]

Bodies were "theatrical mannequins" [GROTESQUE LIE: All victims identified by families, documented by doctors]

Crimean Annexation - Hybrid Warfare Blueprint (February-March 2014)

Manufacturing Consent (February 22-27, 2014)

Russian media created a false crisis to justify intervention:

"Trains of Right Sector fighters" heading to Crimea to massacre Russians [FALSE: No such movements occurred; Right Sector had minimal presence even in Western Ukraine]

Crimean Tatars were preparing terrorist attacks against Russians [FALSE: Crimean Tatar leadership explicitly called for peace]

"Secret NATO documents" revealed plans for base in Sevastopol [FALSE: No such documents or plans existed]

"Seven buses of armed Banderists" approaching Crimean border [FALSE: Complete fabrication; no evidence of any such groups]

Russian media showed "spontaneous self-defense forces" emerging to protect locals [FALSE: These were Russian special forces, as Putin later admitted in April 2014].

The Occupation and Referendum Theater

The "little green men" were presented as local self-defense who "bought uniforms at military surplus stores" [ABSURD LIE: Professional Russian special forces with Russian-exclusive equipment]. Putin personally denied they were Russian forces on March 4, 2014 [DIRECT LIE: He admitted the truth in documentary "Crimea: Path to Homeland" one year later].

The March 16 referendum was portrayed as free and fair with 96.77% support and 83% turnout [MASSIVELY FALSIFIED: Russia's own Human Rights Council accidentally published real data showing 30-40% turnout with 50-60% yes votes]. "International observers" validated results [FAKE: Real international organizations (OSCE, UN, EU) refused to observe; "observers" were far-right European politicians and extremists].

The Donbas War - Denial and Deception (April 2014 - February 2022)

The "People's Uprising" Fiction (April-August 2014)

Igor Girkin/Strelkov, a Russian FSB colonel, was presented as a "local reenactment enthusiast" [FALSE: Active FSB officer who later admitted "I pulled the trigger of war"]. Other Russian military intelligence officers were given elaborate fake backstories as "former miners" and "local activists" [FALSE: Most key figures were Russian citizens with no connection to Donbas].

The capture of military equipment was portrayed as "trophies from Ukrainian army" [FALSE: Modern Russian equipment never possessed by Ukraine appeared, documented by NATO and OSCE]. When Russian paratroopers were captured in August 2014, they were "lost on training exercises" [ABSURD: They were 50km inside Ukraine with full combat equipment].

MH17 - The Disinformation Firehose (July 17, 2014)

Within hours of shooting down MH17, Russian media produced constantly changing narratives:

Ukrainian Su-25 shot it down [PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE: Su-25 maximum altitude 7,000m; MH17 at 10,000m]

Ukrainian BUK aiming for Putin's plane [FALSE: Putin's plane nowhere near Ukraine that day]

CIA filled plane with dead bodies for false flag [INSANE AND OFFENSIVE: 298 real victims with grieving families]

Ukraine used captured Russian BUK [FALSE: JIT investigation proved BUK came from Russia's 53rd Brigade in Kursk]

Russian media created fake Spanish air traffic controller "Carlos" and fake Ukrainian pilot "Voloshin" who "confessed" [BOTH FABRICATED: No such persons existed in those positions].

Years of Denial (2014-2022)

Major battles involving regular Russian forces were systematically denied:

Ilovaisk (August 2014): Russian armor columns described as "volunteers on vacation" [FALSE: Entire battalion tactical groups don't vacation with tanks]

Debaltseve (January-February 2015): Russian artillery support denied [FALSE: OSCE documented cross-border shelling]

Russian military deaths: Soldiers who died in Ukraine buried secretly, families silenced [COVER-UP: Cargo 200 (military dead) hidden from public]

"Humanitarian convoys" (70+ from 2014-2019) brought "baby food and medicine" [FALSE: OSCE spotted military equipment; Ukraine denied inspection rights].

The Inter-War Preparation Period (2015-2021)

Gradual Escalation (2015-2018)

Russian media normalized occupation while denying involvement. They promoted "civil war" narrative [FALSE: International conflict with Russian forces] and demanded Ukraine negotiate directly with "rebels" [MANIPULATION: Forcing Ukraine to legitimize Russian proxies].

Passportization and Annexation Preparation (2019-2021)

Distribution of 800,000+ Russian passports in occupied territories was presented as "humanitarian aid to abandoned people" [ILLEGAL: Geneva Convention prohibits occupier from changing civil status]. Claims that Ukraine "abandoned" these citizens [FALSE: Ukraine couldn't provide services due to Russian military occupation].

COVID-19 Weaponization (2020-2021)

Pandemic disinformation included:

US biolabs in Ukraine creating ethnic-specific bioweapons targeting Slavs [SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE: No such technology exists]

Ukraine deliberately spreading COVID in occupied territories [FALSE: No evidence; occupied areas suffered due to Russian healthcare failures]

Western vaccines were "genetic weapons" [FALSE: Anti-vaccine propaganda while Russia promoted its own Sputnik V]

Putin's Historical Revisionism (July 2021)

Putin's 5,000-word article "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians" became mandatory reading for Russian forces. Key false claims:

Ukraine was "created by Lenin" [FALSE: Ukrainian national movement predated Soviet Union by decades]

Ukrainians and Russians are "one people - a single whole" [FALSE: Distinct languages, cultures, and national identities]

Modern Ukraine is "anti-Russia project" [FALSE: Ukraine's independence isn't about Russia but about self-determination]

Full-Scale Invasion and Beyond (2022-2024)

Pre-Invasion Crescendo (October 2021 - February 2022)

Russian media prepared the population with escalating false narratives:

"Genocide in Donbas" with 130,000 refugees fleeing to Russia [FALSE: UN documented ~3,400 total civilian deaths over 8 years, mostly in 2014-2015]

Ukraine preparing "Operation Storm" to retake Donbas [FALSE: No offensive preparations or capabilities]

Discovery of "mass graves of Russian speakers" [FABRICATED: No evidence provided]

Ukraine developing plutonium-based nuclear weapons [FALSE: No nuclear program, no plutonium]

Ukraine planning false flag chemical attack [PROJECTION: Russia preparing narrative for potential chemical weapons use]

Invasion Justifications and War Crimes Denial (February 2022 - Present)

"Special military operation" for "denazification" [ORWELLIAN: Full-scale war against democratic country with Jewish president]. When war went badly, narratives constantly shifted:

Bucha massacre: "Bodies appeared after Russians left," "satellite images faked" [FALSE: Satellite imagery, phone records, forensics all confirmed Russian atrocities during occupation]

Mariupol theater bombing: "Azov Battalion false flag" [FALSE: Russian airstrike killed 600 civilians in clearly marked shelter]

Kakhovka dam destruction: "Ukrainian sabotage" [FALSE: Dam under Russian control; flooding benefited Russian defense]

Grain theft: "Protecting grain from Western exploitation" [FALSE: Systematic theft of Ukrainian grain documented]

Key Disinformation Strategies and Techniques

The Firehose of Falsehood

Russian strategy involves overwhelming audience with numerous, often contradictory narratives. MH17 generated 15+ different explanations; Bucha massacre had 8 different denials. Goal isn't coherent alternative truth but destroying concept of truth itself.

Projection and Reversal

Consistently accusing Ukraine of what Russia itself does: calling democratic Ukraine "fascist" while exhibiting fascist characteristics, claiming Ukraine commits genocide while conducting genocidal actions, accusing Ukraine of aggression while invading.

Manufactured Evidence

Creating fake witnesses, documents, and recordings. Hiring actors to play refugees, victims, or "concerned citizens." Producing fake "intercepted communications" and "secret documents."

Historical Weaponization

Rewriting history to justify present aggression. Denying Ukrainian nationhood, claiming territories as "historically Russian," invoking WWII constantly while distorting its history.

This comprehensive disinformation campaign represents the most extensive information warfare operation of the 21st century, combining traditional propaganda with modern digital tools to justify aggression, confuse international audiences, maintain domestic support, and attempt to destroy Ukrainian national identity. The scale, sophistication, and persistence of these operations demonstrate that information warfare was not auxiliary to military operations but central to Russian strategy against Ukraine.

[Breakingthewall]

@Kid A what you call revolution Is it to expel a democratically elected government by force without waiting for elections?

About that of true and false, then we have to assume that what one side says is true and other is false. Ok, then I will choose one side and believe what that side says. It's simple, thanks, I was bit confused but not anymore 

Edited Sunday at 05:44 PM by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Saying that Russia wants to annex another country is not accurate. Russia wants to annex a part of Ukraine populated by Russians who want to be Russia and who are at war with Ukrainian nationalism. It's a unique situation, and it's been greatly exacerbated by the US to make money. 

If Putin could take all of Ukraine he would. He tried to take Kiev and failed comically.

He is like the fox and the sour grapes. After he failed to take Kiev he now says the grapes were sour anyway.

Putin is a pragmatic opportunist. He will do whatever people let him get away with. Which is why pushback is important. A bully keeps bullying until he is punched in the face.

Edited Sunday at 08:18 PM by Leo Gura

[Twentyfirst]

9 hours ago, BlueOak said:

There is economic pressure globally, as we are an interconnected system. Dismantling Russia is certainly costly in the short term, that's why nobody wanted to do it for years, but they've realised its the fastest way to stop them without direct military intervention or another 10 years of war. Whether that's Russia unable to fight, unable to support itself, breaking up into 12 nations, or entering negotiations with Ukraine. 

This guy has been reasonably consistent:
 

 

I still don't understand why you would want to sacrifice your quality of life to see the dismantlement of a country a couple thousand miles away

 

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If Putin could take all of Ukraine he would. He tried to take Kiev and failed comically.

He is like the fox and the sour grapes. After he failed to take Kiev he now says the grapes were sour anyway.

Putin is a pragmatic opportunist. He will do whatever people let him get away with. Which is why pushback is important. A bully keeps bullying until he is punched in the face.

I don't know, it doesn't seem feasible to have a population of millions of people hostile to your regime subjugated nowadays; it's too costly. On the other hand, annexing an area where the majority wants it does make sense.

[Leo Gura]

@Breakingthewall But why are you acting like it's okay to annex part of another country? Especially when you know the annexation will result in a million deaths.

If you are against the Iraq war you should also be against the Putin war.

Edited Sunday at 08:44 PM by Leo Gura

[BlueOak]

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I specifically talked about invasions on my thread

Then when Leo made it about annexation of land, I made it about that too

Iran did not invade anyone, neither did China

To me invading or bullying other countries is another level of asshole than your bullying your own.

But that is just how i see it

North Korea is far worse than China on its citizens using that paradigm.

If i start shitting on countries that supply weapons to conflicts then i will have to include half the world

 

China invaded Tibet and East Turkestan.
They have also decided to claim everyone's territorial waters in the South China Sea.
They repeatedly want to invade Taiwan. 
Just today they have been harassing filipino fishermen, in waters they have decided are theirs unilaterally. 

China has had more border disputes than anyone in my living memory.

The point to carry forward however is to:

Tell you this is a universal problem, and highlight the futility of the framing you are using. Picking two countries on the side you don't like and focusing on why they are not good compared to everyone else, or as bad as X. Individuals do this to make sure their own worldview is the right one in their mind.

Why is one side worse than the other.  <---- Countries don't make policy like this. A country is millions of people with a divergent set of interests, and when those interests are hindered by a country it is considered in a certain way, and policy made accordingly, when enough interests are threatened, its considered in a certain way; when they are aided, it's considered in a certain way.

Edited Sunday at 09:11 PM by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Saying that Russia wants to annex another country is not accurate. Russia wants to annex a part of Ukraine populated by Russians who want to be Russia and who are at war with Ukrainian nationalism. It's a unique situation, and it's been greatly exacerbated by the US to make money. 

"Russia has not borders but neither do other civilizations," 

Putins own words.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-endless-border-putin-rosenberg-bbc-threatening-comment-billboard-1861020

Russia wants whatever it can take. Right now that's not much. Its not a country its a collection of countries, and its been a lifelong ambition of Putin to restore what was lost when the USSR fell. He doesn't consider Ukraine a country, he doesn't consider the Ukranian leader a legimate leader.

"The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-map-proves-ukraine-not-real-despite-saying-ukraine-2023-5?op=1

Almost every war Russia has fought has been to topple old USSR countries, or retake old provinces.

[Lyubov]

It’s kind of obnoxious though how every criticism of Russia is always countered by “what about the west.” This is such a stupid and intellectually dishonest take. I’m surprised more people aren’t banned from this section for this. We can discuss and condem western corruption and we can discuss and condem eastern corruption without having to be tribal and take sides like a bunch of moronic normie sheep who feed this belief system.

Edited Sunday at 09:09 PM by Lyubov

[Karmadhi]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

specially when you know the annexation will result in a million deaths.

Where did you get this from? Russia has annexed 20% of Ukraine for over 2 years now and nothing close to that has happened

I think the reason people do not seem to see it as a bad thing when Russia annexes Eastern Ukraine, is because in their mind Eastern Ukraine is mostly Russians and therefore it is fine if Russia gets it. I am sure they would have major issue if they took parts of Poland for example where there are no Russians.

Note: I am just explaining their though process, it is not what I think. I do not support annexations in general.

Edited Sunday at 09:11 PM by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Where did you get this from? Russia has annexed 20% of Ukraine for over 2 years now and nothing close to that has happened

The death toll of this war is close to 1 million.

[Karmadhi]

29 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

China invaded Tibet and East Turkestan.
They have also decided to claim everyone's territorial waters in the South China Sea.
They repeatedly want to invade Taiwan. 
Just today they have been harassing filipino fishermen, in waters they have decided are theirs unilaterally. 

Those were indeed wrong but were done many decades ago. I usually refer to after 1990s, because beforehand I can also say USA annexing Hawaii for example but I am not going that further back. Until 1990s there was still a law of the jungle in a way so I do not use it as a reference point.

If they invade Taiwan I would indeed have huge issues with it but so far it has not happened

29 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

China has had more border disputes than anyone in my living memory.

The point to carry forward however is to:

Tell you this is a universal problem, and highlight the futility of the framing you are using. Picking two countries on the side you don't like and focusing on why they are not good compared to everyone else, or as bad as X. Individuals do this to make sure their own worldviewis the right one in their mind.

What is your point? When did I defend China? I started this saying Russia got punished more than other countries for doing a similar thing and now you are telling me that China is getting away with bad things. You are simply proving my point more. I do not like China nor support it. I prefer Europe over China any day of the year.

Edited Sunday at 09:20 PM by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The death toll of this war is close to 1 million.

Ok clear, I miss understood you

I do not think anyone here supports Russia invading Ukraine. At most they blame both the West and Russia about it. But I have not seen anyone here actually support the invasion. It is general sentiment that it was wrong. Even Russian apologiest say that it was wrong. 

Edited Sunday at 09:21 PM by Karmadhi

[Raze]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The death toll of this war is close to 1 million.

It isn’t, that’s casualties which include injuries

[BlueOak]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Those were indeed wrong but were done many decades ago. I usually refer to after 1990s, because beforehand I can also say USA annexing Hawaii for example but I am not going that further back.

If they invade Taiwan I would indeed have huge issues with it but so far it has not happened

What is your point? When did I defend China? I started this saying Russia got punished more than other countries for doing a similar thing and now you are telling me that China is getting away with bad things. You are simply proving my point more. I do not like China nor support it. I prefer Europe over China any day of the year.

One last go. 

This country isn't as bad as this country: Is not how countries make policy.
They don't sit here and objectively work out who is morally superior or objectively more detrimental to the interests or sovereignty of someone else.

They look at their own national interests. These interests don't come from a single source; they are extremely multifaceted. 

As for the China point - you literally posted that China hasn't invaded anyone, when right now they are invading someone. 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20251012-china-philippines-trade-blame-over-boat-collision-in-disputed-sea

I don't know why you'd both be confused that I raised the point and at the same time quote the point and answer it?

Edited Sunday at 09:23 PM by BlueOak

[Karmadhi]

Just now, BlueOak said:

One last go. 

This country isn't as bad as this country: Is not how countries make policy.
They don't sit here and objectively work out who is morally superior or objectively more detrimental to someone else.

They look at their own national interests. These interests don't come from a single source; they are extremely multifaceted. 

Their interest need to be within international law. The more a country disregards international law the worse they are in my eyes. This is me judging countries foreign policies. 

1 minute ago, BlueOak said:

As for China - you literally posted that China hasn't invaded anyone, when right now they are invading someone. 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20251012-china-philippines-trade-blame-over-boat-collision-in-disputed-sea

I don't know why you'd both be confused that I raised the point and at the same time quote the point and answer it?

I was not aware of it. I consider invasion taking considerate parts of land. But if China is taking whole islands I will investigate and correct myself.