LA Protests

[Leo Gura]

I am disappointed that I don't see a genuine desire to understand reality here, but instead the defending of political dogmas.

This is not in the spirit of our work or values here.

[Apparition of Jack]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am disappointed that I don't see a genuine desire to understand reality here, but instead the defending of political dogmas.

This is not in the spirit of our work or values here.

Just because your average dipshit Trump voter complaining about Spanish on government forms doesn’t understand how he benefits from a worldwide system of extraction and oppression, doesn’t mean he’s immune to the consequences of that system when they come back to bite him in the ass. Just as @BlueOak points out, America had ample time to level the playing field, to use some of the massive wealth it got from other nations to re-invest in those nations and make a more stable world, but it didn’t. Instead it chose fascism, ethno-nationalism and even more corporate greed instead.

I keep saying this but nature abhors an imbalance. America can only exploit other nations for so long before some of those nations want a piece of the pie. If it doesn’t want foreigners coming to its borders, it should invest in those countries instead, not shut them down and threaten to bomb them. You can’t have both, and trying to do so will cause you to lose your mind.

 

EDIT: Empire-building is a trade-off. You sacrifice either wealth, or global influence, or cultural homogeneity depending on your goals, but you can’t have all three. America is trying to have all three, and it’s losing the plot as a result. 

 

America is like if Italians in the Roman Empire were complaining about all the Egyptians and Galls moving to Rome. Pure geopolitical blindness and economic insanity.

Edited Wednesday at 12:02 PM by Apparition of Jack

[PurpleTree]

Left and right don’t trust each other at all. Otherwise they could find solutions.

[Schizophonia]

What are the alternatives ?

Edited Wednesday at 12:07 PM by Schizophonia

[Basman]

They are here illegally. It's not that deep.

Leftists will act like your crazy for wanting borders to have integrity. It's crucial for trust in institutions. Just look at what happened with Brexit. People will vote in Hitler 2.0 if they feel like their institutions are making them unsafe. 

[PurpleTree]

36 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Just because your average dipshit Trump voter complaining about Spanish on government forms doesn’t understand how he benefits from a worldwide system of extraction and oppression, doesn’t mean he’s immune to the consequences of that system when they come back to bite him in the ass. Just as @BlueOak points out, America had ample time to level the playing field, to use some of the massive wealth it got from other nations to re-invest in those nations and make a more stable world, but it didn’t. Instead it chose fascism, ethno-nationalism and even more corporate greed instead.

I keep saying this but nature abhors an imbalance. America can only exploit other nations for so long before some of those nations want a piece of the pie. If it doesn’t want foreigners coming to its borders, it should invest in those countries instead, not shut them down and threaten to bomb them. You can’t have both, and trying to do so will cause you to lose your mind.

 

EDIT: Empire-building is a trade-off. You sacrifice either wealth, or global influence, or cultural homogeneity depending on your goals, but you can’t have all three. America is trying to have all three, and it’s losing the plot as a result. 

 

America is like if Italians in the Roman Empire were complaining about all the Egyptians and Galls moving to Rome. Pure geopolitical blindness and economic insanity.

Maybe maga is trying to have homogeneity. I guess the fear is that if there are too many let’s say latinos and leftists in the US they will get the vote power and destroy the « empire » from within or make it weak and then get destroyed by competition like China or something along those lines.

[LordFall]

19 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

You know what I think it is? What it really just comes down to?

We’re all afraid of being killed. That’s it. 
 

We’ve gotten so use to political stability and reasonable (enough) governance thar the idea that this things could fail and the institutions that should protect us instead could turn against us frightens the begeezus out of us. Which… of course it does. That’s scary as fuck.

But… that’s where we are anyway. People could die. Well-meaning, sensible people could die.

None of us chose this. Many of us chose to fight against this. But it found us all the same.

Look, I don’t want to die more than anyone else. I enjoy my life here on earth and want to make the most of it. And I’m certainly not going to needlessly go out and provoke violence. 
 

But paradoxically sometimes the best way to protect yourself is to protect others first. “First they came for the unionists” and all that. 
 

If anyone here has a sense of faith or their higher power/self I feel like it’s time to put your trust in that. Learn to accept every day as it comes and believe in the fundamental goodness of humanity, no matter what happens. We’re eventually going to die anyway, why not at least try to uphold what you truly believe while you’re here?

What’s the alternative? Just roll over and let fascism win? Let millions of people be oppressed, hurt, imprisoned, shot and killed while we do nothing? Especially if we had the chance to stop it? 
 

Why would anyone accept that? Is life with a jackboot over your neck really a life? You could argue that at least you’d be alive, but to what end? Just so you can get high / jerk off / slave away at a job in private? And especially when there’s a chance for a better future for everyone?

Why content yourself with misery? Don’t any of you believe this world could be better? Freer, kinder, more creative, more uplifting? Are we just meant to be slaves for faceless corporations and vile political ideologies our entire lives? Is that all that it means to be human?

Or is there the chance of something more? Something truer, more meaningful, more wholesome, more enlightening? Why not take that chance? Why waste the only life you’ve got pretending this is all you’re good for? 

We can actually do this, actually. It’s not impossible to build a better world. In 1939 everyone thought the Nazis would rule. A few years later Hitler was dead and democracy reigned triumphant. 
 

Why not follow in the steps of our forefathers? Why not believe in the world that’s already given us so much? We aren’t an evil species, and I’ll believe that until the day I die.

Why give up?

Of course, it all boils down to survival. We’ve been talking about the topic for a while but things are only now hitting the fan and true leadership will be necessary. 

Which is why I would encourage you to analyze your emotional reactions and foster the ability to be extremely pragmatic in these coming times.

[Basman]

41 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I keep saying this but nature abhors an imbalance. America can only exploit other nations for so long before some of those nations want a piece of the pie. If it doesn’t want foreigners coming to its borders, it should invest in those countries instead, not shut them down and threaten to bomb them. You can’t have both, and trying to do so will cause you to lose your mind.

Or you could just enforce the law. This isn't that complicated. 

You leftists don't want to talk about it honestly and directly. You bring in this stuff that is completely irrelevant because you don't want to face the goofy ideas of your ideology.

[Vibes]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am disappointed that I don't see a genuine desire to understand reality here, but instead the defending of political dogmas.

This is not in the spirit of our work or values here.

I'm quietly learning here!

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Just??

Just??

Not just.

This is more important than your liberalism. That's what you don't understand.

To them it is important, I accept that. To me, it's a pigment, the level of melatonin in the body.

Skin color means nothing at all to me. I engage people on an individual basis. Their belief systems, and moreover how they are in that moment, have significantly more to do with how our interaction goes. Black, Brown, White, doesn't matter.

These two perspectives are almost impossible to reconcile; only accept and work out a compromise.

Hence, if you are accepting its importance to them, you have to also accept the same for the other side. That's what you either don't understand or are choosing not to vocalize. That is what the right will not do. So you are expecting me to forever move toward their position, and on these fundamental disagreements of race I cannot and will not. I will fight for the equal treatment of all races under the law and betterment within society till the day I pass from this earth, whenever I am in a position where it's called on to do so.

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I am disappointed that I don't see a genuine desire to understand reality here, but instead the defending of political dogmas.

This is not in the spirit of our work or values here.

Understanding something doesn't mean embracing it.

[Apparition of Jack]

So, for those wanting to know why I find the idea of America enforcing its borders at the point of a gun so abhorrent, I’ll explain.

Take this with a grain of salt because this is just my unfalsifiable intuition, but basically I strongly believe the last election was something of a nation-wide spiritual test for America to see if it could choose truth over lies, and ultimately it chose lies.

America, had it been a sane and grounded entity, could’ve voted for the black lady promising housing rebates, loan forgiveness and corporate crackdowns, but instead it unironically chose pedophilia, oligarchal dominance and nightmarish security state overreach. It had one last chance to prove to the universe that it as a sovereign entity had legitimacy for its own existence, but ultimately it failed that chance spectacularly. I mean, if it were being utterly, absolutely honest with itself, it would admit that it voted for Trump again just because it didn’t want another “n***** running the White House”, but of course it will delude itself into thinking it voted against “Cultural Marxism, communism, Islamism” and whatever other buzzword bullshit it uses to justify its hate.

Again, these are just my own personal intuitions and ramblings. Feel free to call me some misguided leftist all you want, I don’t care. But I truly believe the American state has in some sense lost all claims to moral and cultural legitimacy, and will now wrestle with that moving forward.

You might not like to hear this, but that culture is now effectively moving into a “post-America” era. What the US once thought of itself was is now dead and buried, murdered in November 2024 and now making way for something else to be born.

What this means, in practice, is that white people will now have to get used to black and brown people being as fundamentally American as they are, from now until the rest of time. That means black CEOs, black presidents, brown senators, brown military generals, and so on. Of course, a lot of white Americans will hate this, but so what? Like I said they had their chance to maintain some cultural legitimacy in 2024, but they blew it. White supremacy is dead and the multi-racial civilisation is now the future.

[kbone]

I am not much of a political animal, but I had always kinda snorta noticed that Dems were a bit more active in trying to bring immigration legislation to the table; whereas, the GOP tended to not show up. So, I asked AI to give me the lowdown.

 

According to AI in the Sky

Here’s a list of notable immigration legislation proposed by Democrats that faced opposition from Republicans, including reasons for opposition and alternative proposals:

1. The DREAM Act (2001, 2007, 2010)

Democratic Proposal: Offered a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants brought to the U.S. as children.

Republican Opposition: Concerns about perceived "amnesty" and fears it would encourage more illegal immigration.

Alternative Proposals: Some Republicans suggested stricter enforcement measures or limited versions that did not include a pathway to citizenship.

2. Comprehensive Immigration Reform (CIR) (2007, 2013)

Democratic Proposal: A broad approach that included a pathway to citizenship, increased border security, and reforms to the legal immigration system.

Republican Opposition: Criticized for potential amnesty and insufficient border security provisions.

Alternative Proposals: Republicans often pushed for enforcement-first approaches, focusing on border security before discussing pathways to citizenship.

3. The Immigration Reform and Accountability Act (2013)

Democratic Proposal: Included a pathway to citizenship, increased border security, and an overhaul of the visa system.

Republican Opposition: Concerns over amnesty and the potential economic impact on jobs.

Alternative Proposals: Many Republicans favored piecemeal legislation focusing solely on border security without addressing pathways to citizenship.

4. The American Dream and Promise Act (2019)

Democratic Proposal: Aimed to provide a pathway to citizenship for DREAMers and TPS (Temporary Protected Status) recipients.

Republican Opposition: Viewed as too lenient and a form of amnesty; concerns over national security.

Alternative Proposals: Republicans proposed legislation that prioritized enforcement and border security without pathways to citizenship.

5. The U.S. Citizenship Act (2021)

Democratic Proposal: Comprehensive reform that included a pathway to citizenship for millions of undocumented immigrants and increased border security.

Republican Opposition: Criticized for being overly broad and lacking sufficient measures to secure the border.

Alternative Proposals: Many Republicans advocated for stricter enforcement and rejected comprehensive reform in favor of targeted legislation.

6. The Farm Workforce Modernization Act (2021)

Democratic Proposal: Provided a pathway to legal status for agricultural workers and addressed labor shortages in the agricultural sector.

Republican Opposition: Concerns over the long-term implications for immigration policy and labor costs for farmers.

Alternative Proposals: Some Republicans suggested increased guest worker programs without pathways to citizenship.

7. The Protecting Immigrant Families Act (2021)

Democratic Proposal: Aimed to restore public benefits access for immigrants and their families.

Republican Opposition: Viewed as an expansion of welfare and concerns about public charge rules.

Alternative Proposals: Republicans proposed limiting benefits for undocumented immigrants and focusing on enforcement.

8. The Citizenship for Essential Workers Act (2021)

Democratic Proposal: Sought to provide a pathway to citizenship for essential workers during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Republican Opposition: Concerns about prioritizing undocumented immigrants over American workers and potential economic impacts.

Alternative Proposals: Republicans typically focused on enhancing job opportunities for American citizens rather than pathways for undocumented workers.

Summary

Throughout the years, various Democratic proposals aimed at reforming immigration policy have been met with resistance from Republicans, primarily revolving around concerns over national security, economic implications, and the concept of amnesty. Republican alternatives often focused on enforcement-first strategies, limiting immigration pathways, and addressing border security without comprehensive reform.

[Apparition of Jack]

@kbone Bingo. It’s just Republican white supremacy all the way down. They made legal immigration too hard for people wanting to share in some of the wealth America gets from the world, and now they’re paying the price.

[Joshe]

5 hours ago, Hardkill said:

If a woman of color became president and was perceived as “too aggressive,” the backlash would likely be even more intense and layered than it would be for a white woman — due to the intersection of racial and gender stereotypes.

We need an alpha male who's white, has traditional social values, but is a true economic class warrior like TR or FDR.

Right. The people say they want a strong leader but when they see a woman project strength, they cringe. And if that woman is from another culture, they cringe harder. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:54 PM by Joshe

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Right. The people say they want a strong leader but when they see a women project strength, they cringe. And if that women is from another culture, they cringe harder. 

The thing is though she’s not even from another culture. Kamala is American through and through. I mean, she was even a state prosecutor, how much more American can you get?

The problem was too many voters refused to see this. They say an American-born politician with unequivocal loyalty to the US as being an “other”, when she clearly wasnt. She had plans to improve their lives, help the economy, and crack down on corporate greed, but they were too blinded by racism and selfishness that they voted for the rapist conman instead.

Americans have never just been white, but white Americans have refused to see this. And now because of this they’ve unleashed a monster who’s ruining the Republic that gave them rights in the first place. It’s probably the biggest self-own in history.

[DocWatts]

49 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

@kbone Bingo. It’s just Republican white supremacy all the way down. 

If there was ever a time to to be crystal clear in our messaging - and to do so in bold and uncompromising language - it's right now. 

This isn't all that complicated:

Trump is intentionally manufacturing a crisis so that he can invoke martial law.

ICE is kidnapping people off the streets in violation of our laws and the US Constitution.

Trump is a traitor, and MAGA is the American equivalent of the Nazis. 

The regime needs to be resisted. The most effective way to do so is through mass nonviolent protest and civil disobedience.

Standing up to tyrants is a reflection of core American values. The US flag doesn't belong to insurrectionist traitors, which is why we'll be flying it at the protests.

Edited Wednesday at 02:08 PM by DocWatts

[Husseinisdoingfine]

To be sincere and honest, I never understood why the deportation of the undocumented was such a big issue in American politics.

I'm Russian, and I personally knew of a Belarusian man who was deported from Russia back to Belarus because his temporary stay expired and yet he didn't voluntarily go back. But its just seen a totally normal!

In every other country, deporting those who reside in the country illegally is seen as normal legal procedure. Only in America is there a big brouhaha about it. In Poland they used to shoot migrants who would travel across the border illegally, and I think they still do to some extent.

The weak enforcement of border laws only increases nationalistic sentiments. In Europe, the rise of the far-right and their political parties only emerged after the Syrian refugee crisis, and the migrant wave from Pakistan, India, and Africa that followed and still continues.  And look at what happened, the AfD is now Germany's second largest party.

And the Sociology backs me up on this. People who live in more diverse neighborhoods have less trust in their neighbors. This creates a lower trust society where people hunker down instead of communicating with each other, thus ruining the civil society.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-create-distrust/

https://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/publications/downside-diversity

[Apparition of Jack]

@Husseinisdoingfine

The difference between Russia/Belarus and America/Mexico is that the economic and power imbalance between the two is much smaller. I understand Belarus used to be part of the USSR, but I can’t imagine Russia exploited it as deeply as America did to Mexico over the centuries.

Just think about something like NAFTA. Half of all cars in America are made in Mexico due to NAFTA, and it’s the reason Americans pay $20,000 for a compact instead of $60,000. Again, this makes your average American much more wealthy than they would be otherwise. 

The problem is, the only reason these cars from Mexico aes so cheap is that Mexico lacks the safety standards, high wages, social services etc of America, allowing them to be made much cheaper. As I’ve said I wouldn’t go so far as to say all trade is exploitative, but it certainly can lean in that direction when America has so much leverage out of Mexico to get what it wants.

So Mexico, through its cheap labour, it’s providing immeasurable wealth to America, but when Mexicans want to enjoy some of that wealth too, they’re told to “go home.” Again, my problem isn’t with the idea of border enforcement in general, my problem is with the absurd power differential America has over the rest of the world that it refuses to acknowledge. 
 

If America was just some generic bumfuck middle income economy complaining about mass migration, I would see the argument a bit more. But it’s not. It’s the wealthiest civilisation in human history, by an almost absurd degree. That wealth comes from somewhere, but America refuses to acknowledge this.

[BlueOak]

27 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

And the Sociology backs me up on this. People who live in more diverse neighborhoods have less trust in their neighbors. This creates a lower trust society where people hunker down instead of communicating with each other, thus ruining the civil society.

Among people who treat race as a reason to trust anyone. For everyone else, one has nothing to do with the other.

The economy benefits from the labor, which means your quality of life is almost directly proportional to the strength, health, and skillset of the labor force. Along with obviously how that labor is used, maintained, and looked after with services.

Culture which underpins everything in society, thrives with new inspiration. People dismiss this, but it both drives and stabilises almost everything about a country or region.

Being a high immigration country and a rich, dynamic one nets you the best minds, the intellectuals want to be there. That is where development happens, that is how you rise and fall as a country in relation to your neighbours over time.

These are some of the benefits of immigration off the top of my head, everyone always wants to shout about the opposite, so you all know those already. Social issues of integration, housing, fear from the unknown or uncertainty, more criminality from the levels of poverty and inequality driving it that an initial immigrant experiences, etc.


 

Edited Wednesday at 02:43 PM by BlueOak