Shaming non-vegans is not right.

[Javfly33]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Javfly33 Is Pasture rised considered better in that sense?

Theorically organic farming guarantees certain quality and standard of livings and eating of the animal. The problem is that at least in Europe this organic certifications have become deeply corrupted.

For example, It could happen that a small farm that doesn't have certificate might have the animals in better conditions and eating organic or near organic pasture, than a certified farm that is actually a mass farm in disguise.

The key is finding local small farms, whether they are certified organic or not. Most farmers that care about the soil Will maintain and do certain organic practices even if they dont have the cert.

Because any conscious farmer knows having animals walking all over the soil every day IS one of the most cheapest ways to guarantee/regenerate rich soil 

 

If anyone wants to Watch the documentary I mentioned, and 

@Leo Gura will probably love the video too 

Corruption long hands have reached organic certifications too

Edited January 10 by Javfly33

[sholomar]

6 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I understand if everyone switched to grass finished animal products maybe it wouldn’t be sustainable either because you’d need a bunch of land for that. But that’s why I said it’s key for people to significantly reduce their meat intake and switch to a more plant based diet. And that doesn’t necessarily mean switching to heavily processed meat alternatives, one could eat legumes for example. If one can afford grass finished animal products I think it’s better to buy it, but if not then I understand one would buy conventionally raised.

Grass finished steaks just doesn't taste as good either. The fattening process from the grain gives the meat the marbling that gives it what would be considered a USDA "prime" grade which can not be achieved on grain finished meat, at least not easily. The only real difference between grass and grain finished is what the cows eat the last few months. Granted feed lot conditions are not the best in some cases.  Still it produces the best finished product.  To a degree the cows enjoy gorging themselves on an all you can eat buffet of sugar, just like humans do as our BMI has reached record highs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Butchery/comments/193r22n/grassfed_vs_nongrassfed_vs_grainfinished/khbnxmv/

https://hagancattleco.com/blogs/news/which-beef-is-better-grass-fed-or-grass-fed-gran-finished

Another interesting bit of information:

"Utilizing grass forage as the primary source of feed also increases the carbon footprint because forage diets produce more methane gas emissions from the animal’s digestive tract than high-energy grain diets. Methane is 28 times more potent, trapping heat in the earth’s atmosphere as carbon dioxide.

Generally, the grain-finished cattle will reach market in 12-16 months with an average carcass of 832 lbs. It’s grass-fed counterpart will take 20-26 months to reach market with an average carcass of 638 lbs.

According to the USDA’s per capita beef consumption data, this means that a grain-finished animal can feed approximately 10.4 people as opposed to a 8 for the grass-fed animal.

Sara Place, an assistant professor of sustainable beef cattle systems at Oklahoma State University has stated: “The combination of a higher-energy, lower-forage diet, less time spent on feed in finishing and heavier carcass weights translate to a 18.5% to 67.5% per capita lower carbon footprint.”

The numbers support that grain-finished animal practices are more sustainable and reduce environmental impacts."

 

 

Edited January 10 by sholomar

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, sholomar said:

Grass finished steaks just doesn't taste as good either. The cattle enjoy being fed grain at the end of their lives, and it gives the meat the marbling that gives it what would be considered a USDA "prime" grade which can not be achieved on grain finished meat. The only real difference between grass and grain finished is what the cows eat the last few months. Imagine given an all you can eat buffet of sugary crap at the end of life... it might not be the best for you but they gain a lot of weight from gorging themselves on it.

https://www.copiaohio.com/post/personal-thoughts-about-100-grass-fed-finished-beef-vs-grain-fed

https://www.reddit.com/r/Butchery/comments/193r22n/grassfed_vs_nongrassfed_vs_grainfinished/

I’m no expert in what these terms mean. I’m just thinking in regard to how the cows live: a life of freely grazing vs confined in small spaces, and the effect on the environment for these different methods. So whichever one is better for the cows and enviroment I support. Maybe we can find a way to make it equally tasty in the future 

[Something Funny]

 

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I usually only eat meat on holidays or occasionally when my parents barbecue, then I eat the meat my parents buy which is usually conventionally raised. Other than that I eat chicken and eggs sometimes , also what my parents buy so it’s conventionally raised, but I have decided to eat more plant based this year. Hopefully I don’t sound like a hypocrite 

My goal this year is to eat more plant based. I’m still an omnivore so I eat animal products but I thought I’d limit chicken to maybe once a week, I’m gonna buy organic meat occasionally, then fish about once a week. Something like that

What is it that motivates you to eat a more plant based diet?

[Sugarcoat]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

What is it that motivates you to eat a more plant based diet?

It’s better for climate, animals, and health according to science.

I’ve listened a little bit to this guy Simon Hill 

[Emerald]

17 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

It’s better for climate, animals, and health according to science.

I’ve listened a little bit to this guy Simon Hill 

I'm not familiar with Simon Hill. But I originally went Vegan for the ethical reasons as it pertains to animals, and being better for the climate was a secondary boon.

And I'm only recently focusing more on eating solely a whole food Vegan diet.

Do you plan on going all the way Vegan one day? 

Edited January 11 by Emerald

[Sugarcoat]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm not familiar with Simon Hill. But I originally went Vegan for the ethical reasons as it pertains to animals, and being better for the climate was a secondary boon.

And I'm only recently focusing more on eating solely a whole food Vegan diet.

Do you plan on going all the way Vegan one day? 

Those are all good reasons.

Whole food is always the best

I dont have a plan of going vegan, but I might try it out sometime. The reason being it seems to me atleast a tad bit healthier to include some animal products to make sure you get all the variety of nutrients in a more balanced way. Maybe it’s true or not, it’s what it seems to me. I will though try to buy more organic animal products, grass fed since it’s better for animals and environment 

Edited January 11 by Sugarcoat

[Basman]

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

Edited January 11 by Basman

[Sugarcoat]

17 minutes ago, Basman said:

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

Agreed for the most part

[AION]

8 hours ago, Basman said:

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

I wouldn't call it vegan. I would just call it a balanced whole food diet without processed foods. Processed vegan burgers are as bad as processed meat burgers. 

 

Edited January 11 by AION

[felixk_priv]

@Buck Edwards  if you switch your lens to everything that's happening to animals , to  seeing it happen to humans , you can understand much more the outrage and the shaming. 

Imagine your a human living in society , and you see everyone just causally okay with a baby holocaust by the millions every year ,  And if it's not a baby's it's killing millions and millions of humans just for the sake the pleasure . Not to mention the claustrophobic conditions and millions of the electrocutions not working so millions feel their throats getting cut each year , oh but your family and people around you , they don't really care so .. 

If you live in society and you see that , it makes sense that there is bound to be outrage or some passion on the subject .. so on the topic of privilege ..

And also everyone was outraged about the the holocausts in WW2 weren't they ? 

 

 

[felixk_priv]

@Basman @Basman 1 )  little steps turns into bigger and bigger progress overtime 

2)  think of veganism in the same lens of all the other ethical progressions we have made as a society . Feminism , racism .. this is one of the next ones 

[felixk_priv]

@Basman I have been looking for a genuine perspective for why ,   an baby chicken deserves to feel the sensation of having it's throat slit any more than a human toddler  . 

Perhaps you weren't calling this specifically childish ,  but if you mean that in terms of this please share your perspective 

[Schizophonia]

19 hours ago, Basman said:

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

vegetarianism doesn't exists in nature. 

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

vegetarianism doesn't exists in nature. 

That's only because the consumption of dairy past infancy (and from another species) is only something that humans do.

So, both Vegetarianism and the standard Omnivorous diet aren't found in nature. 

That said, it doesn't mean that human beings are able to consume these diets. Humanity is also part of nature. And our nature is different from the nature of other species.

So, the notion of something "natural" being synonymous with "good for you" isn't scientifically sound.

You actually have to look at meta-analyses that cross-reference many studies on how different diets tend to impact human beings to find out the optimal diet for human beings.

[Schizophonia]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

That's only because the consumption of dairy past infancy (and from another species) is only something that humans do.

Humans are also the only ones to wear clothes or make tools, it's natural for humans.
By does not exist in nature, i mean that has not been involved in the evolutionary process.

Many human ethnic groups have developed the ability to manage lactose and dairy proteins, and most humans consume at least processed dairy products to remove these indigestible products (yogurt, kefir, cheese ...)

Veganism is literally not found in nature (in humans evolution), there have been tribes and even civilizations (Indus Valley civilizations) carnivorous or almost, but not vegan.
Even Ayurveda does not recommend veganism at all, honey, meat and milk are considered superfoods if digested: Veganism is an ascetic drift even in Indian culture.

Quote

So, both Vegetarianism and the standard Omnivorous diet aren't found in nature. 

Humans are highly adaptive omnivores, with a tendency toward carnivory.
There are plenty of animals to trap and kill in nature, but there are not fields of nuts, fruits, grains, and vegetables. And when you do find a fruit tree by chance, there aren't many because insects and small mammals have consumed most of them. Even figs in nature are hard to find because even with a thick layer and few calories, insects and mold come and devour everything as soon as they start to ripen a little.
Eating fruit in quantity is an agrarian affair, therefore modern, therefore non-evolving.

Quote

That said, it doesn't mean that human beings are able to consume these diets. Humanity is also part of nature. And our nature is different from the nature of other species.

Yes i'm agree.  

Quote

So, the notion of something "natural" being synonymous with "good for you" isn't scientifically sound.

What is good is to do what is suitable for our system, and what is suitable is the result of an evolutionary process that has been imposed on us.

Quote

You actually have to look at meta-analyses that cross-reference many studies on how different diets tend to impact human beings to find out the optimal diet for human beings.

Meta analyses are biased, both by obvious epistemological biases but also ideological ones.

Carnivores are also biased, for example animals in the wild are lower in saturated fat than modern farmed animals, because instead of getting their calories mainly from starch (which is converted more into long-chain saturated fatty acids) they get them from plants, nuts, fatty fruits rich in polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats.
Humans also evolved mainly with fish and seafood, not modern grazing ruminants rich in long-chain saturated fats, whole and often raw milk rather than cheese etc etc, more biases.

Edited January 12 by Schizophonia

[Basman]

16 hours ago, felixk_priv said:

@Basman @Basman 1 )  little steps turns into bigger and bigger progress overtime 

2)  think of veganism in the same lens of all the other ethical progressions we have made as a society . Feminism , racism .. this is one of the next ones 

 

15 hours ago, felixk_priv said:

@Basman I have been looking for a genuine perspective for why ,   an baby chicken deserves to feel the sensation of having it's throat slit any more than a human toddler  . 

Perhaps you weren't calling this specifically childish ,  but if you mean that in terms of this please share your perspective 

The fact is that people perceive animals differently. I think the view that vegans hold that animals are equivalent to humans morally is because many vegans didn't grow up with animal husbandry and are used to anthropomorphize animals through pets and media. If you grew up hunting seals for a living you would understand that exploiting animals doesn't inherently mean cruelty. Animals aren't equivalent to humans because they aren't sentient. And in a broader sense, exploitation is necessary for human society to survive. Its a bit of a luxury view in my opinion which is why I call it childish. A child doesn't have to contend with survival. 

Now, vegans make a good argument for individual welfare. And the treatment of animals has improved and continues to improve with time. In my opinion, veganism is like communism. Its main feature is the critique but the end game of either ideology is untenable. Animal husbandry is most likely going to continue for as long as humans exist.

[Basman]

On 11/01/2025 at 10:37 AM, AION said:

I wouldn't call it vegan. I would just call it a balanced whole food diet without processed foods. Processed vegan burgers are as bad as processed meat burgers.

Its funny, because its basically just eating more veggies.

 

[Shane Hanlon]

Serious props need to be given to @Emerald @Something Funny @Scholar and @Michael569

I deeply appreciate you guys putting in the effort to address the same psychological pitfalls and lack of understanding that are brought up over and over again. I do not have the energy to do that. But it is really important work.

For those genuinely considering a vegan diet here are high-quality resources.

This article is one of the least biased pieces of media I have ever read and is chock full of relevant statistics.
https://80000hours.org/problem-profiles/factory-farming/

 

Here is the most comprehensive study ever done on the environmental impacts of different diets. Download this and ask ChatGPT questions about it.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325532198_Reducing_food's_environmental_impacts_through_producers_and_consumers

 

If you watch Earthling Eds debate videos, you will find that your exact argument comes up in almost every one of these. And you can see how your thinking could be flawed:

If you want to see how animals are treated in our modern-day context this documentary is brutally honest, representative of 95%+ of all animals and free to watch.

And finally, when you make it through the insane mess of an information-scape that we live in today, you will likely come out vegan.


If we can live healthily and harmoniously without causing unnecessary harm to animals, it becomes a moral, ecological, and compassionate imperative to choose to do so.