Search the Community

Typically its grounded in sentience. Basically If you have some empathy and know whats it like to be hurt, then you unnecessarily don't want to hurt other beings that are capable of being hurt. Yes, you are atypical. Most people wouldn't kill a person for 50 euros, even if they would know 100%, that they could get away with it.

That can be anything sentient. And since there is only Infinite Consciousness, any Holon/perspective/being, from atom, bacteria, ant, animal, human (individual Holons), Alien, whatever n+1, to large social Holons like a Planetery Consciousness/Gaia, Galaxy or whole Universes/Realms/Lokas/Buddhafields/Dimensions holding the individual holons/beings in their larger being/realm. Up towards other Realms that are so alien/"other" one can not even talk about them because they don't have the correlates of this Realm like space/time/causality and so on (see for example Jac O'Keffee, Stephen Wolinsky, David Spandler, David Buckland). All beings/realms have some kind of sentience/interiortiy/consciousness, and something that makes them individual from the Totality/Infinite Reality, and that "something/manifestation" arises within their perspectives. Ken Wilber has a nice desription of Holons/perspectives/beings (both individual and social Holons) and Holarchy in Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. An Infinite Mind/Consciousness, separates itself into infinite perspectives/Holons/beings that are aware of each other (Indras Net), and play hide & seek & grow back home, in all realms and dimensions possible.

Yes. Awareness is so impersonal and pure that if nothing arises/manifests (including self-consciousness, separate self) it doesn't even know it exists. Infinite. Just Pure Nothingness/Awareness, with the potential of sentience or to be aware OF something. And that of can be a human separate self/ego.

For the Totality/Wholeness of the Absolute and Manifest aspect: The gold (Absolute) and the ring (manifested side of the Absolute/arising/appearance) made out of gold metaphor. It is a Infinite Unity and Totality. Always gold, but the ring can appear or be gone. The nature/essence of the ring is gold. But not the other way round. And for equating anything with the Absolute (and not with its manifest side or potential): The Absolute is truly Infinite. It is neither this nor that, not even love. It is beyond it all. It couldn't be any different. It is your true BEING, but not what you think your being is right now. Realize it, then you will understand. The Absolute is beyond it all. If you would understand it, you would be enlightened right now. It can't be communicated in words. Once you start intuiting/realizing it, it will be totally clear. Where was unconditional love in deep sleep? Before your birth? After your death? These are all Koans that pointing directly to your truly Infinite Absolute Nature, which is literally right here right now, but covered under a myriad of clouds of mistaken identities (thoughts/feelings). These Koans have a very clear answer, just not one that can be carried with words and language/duality. A good approximation is: The Absolute is both totally empty (undescribeable) and also infinite potential. The Infinite Potential contains the potential for unconditional love, expressed then in the manifested side of the Absolute/Infinite Consciousness. But that is already to much concepts. The referent of the signifier must be there: Realization of the Absolute in an awakened state. That is then called Enlightenment (the full&final one). Sorry, language ends somewhere here. Maybe one more idea/metaphor: The blind men describing the elephant: One says its a hose, one says a trunk, and so on. The facets of Awakening. If the elephant is the manifested side of consciousness, then the whole (infinite) elephant has love as its essence so to say. Because fundamentally it is a nondual Unity. And where there is an other, there is fear (Upanishads somewhere). And if there is no other (nondual infinite unity), there is only love. And the Absolute would be the spaceless locationless unmanifest (no body, center, location, anything. FULLY EMPTY) Awareness of the elephant, "seeing itself", but also in nondual union with it. The gold from the ring-metaphor and the elephant the ring. And if the elephant is zapped out of existence, the Absolute Awareness is neither aware of the elephant, nor (and that is important) of itself. There is no time, no space, no nothing. But the POTENTIAL for sentience/awareness. Unaware of itself. But as soon as the elephant arises/manifests again (with love as its essence, see above), Absolute Awareness "sees" again - love. So it can only manifest as metaphysical love so to say. And now make elephant infinite (no boundaries) limitless... And there can only be love! Yet the Absolute can not be defined with love (only). Not even with (Self-)Consciousness/Awareness, since that doesn't happen when nothing arises/manifests. But with potential for Awareness if something arises. And since the separate-self-contraction is perfectly capable of clouding over the original state of infinite love&bliss (resulting from nondual infinite unity, aka "no other"), instead of doing all these metaphysical conceptual word-games, it would be better to sit down and practice cutting off the mindstream with all its illusion-arisings of the separate-self-contraction. And become empty nondual infinite impersonal Awareness itself. Then love will flow freely anyway, which is all that counts. Ok, now a Zen-Master or two are probably going to kill me....

That quote from Lucia Lorn is spot on. I like the text and her statements. It may seem that Nothingness gets emphasized, but only to avoid any projection of remaining separate-self elements on the Absolute. Which is indeed rampant here. And does cause and will cause more suffering than necessary. For the Absolute, it has a precise definition: Take away all relative manifestation, manifestation of any kind, no arisings at all, and the Absolute is still perfectly "there", like it always is, always was, and ever will be. Timeless, eternal, infinite, the only "thing/non-thing" there is and ever could be, no "other besides" it, One without a second. That is what is fundamental. More fundamental than the relative manifestation, which can be gone. The relative manifestations/arisings arise in in the Absolute as it (nondual, same essence). And if that realization is always available for a being, that is the summum bonum. With Nothingness I don't mean something limited to the fully empty states like Nirvikalpa (Wilber causal states/stages for example, deep sleep, and so on) and so on, but realizing that Infinite Always Here Truth while the world & visual field is there & active and maintaining it while doing so, or True Nondual states. Of course, the Absolute is also present in fully empty states (causal states) by definition (see below). With True Nondual States I don't mean Unity states with separate-self elements still going (these are also already nondual, but with separate-self-elements still going on). But fully empty nondual states, having passed the causal/Nothingness Gate, no separate-self left. Concerning the ring and the gold example: What sense does it make calling/equating the ring (relative manifestation) the "Absolute", which is defined as everpresent and unchanging and always true? The Ring is not always the case! When the Absolute is supposed to be Truth (defined as always the case), it has to be unchanging and always here, never not here. And IT indeed is.... Calling the relative Absolute is technically wrong, because it is not unchanging and always the case. The relative is contained within the Absolute and is of the same essence, like the ring and gold example. Sure that Absolute (or Nothingness or Being or whatever one wants to call it) has potential for awareness/sentience if something arises again, and the potential to manifest that. And infinite intelligence and love, and so on. But first and foremost the Absolute is that which it always is, timeless. And then comes the properties of that which it manifests, and the ways of doing so. When describing gold, we can say it has the potential to form a ring. But first and foremost, it is gold. Most beings already confuse themself with the ring, and can benefit from pointing to the gold. More than being pointed towards how that the ring is made/manifested, which intelligence made it, about other bigger rings, the love for the ring and how other rings are manifested/imagined, n+1. But the gold: That gold which is always eternally the case right here right now, never not been. Which is by the way the textbook definition for Ultimate Truth: Always true or the case. The Relative is not always the case, and therefor not ultimately true. Truth = that which is the case. But to make sure that one really becomes that on a deep identity level shift with no separate-self-elements (ring-elements) still left projecting onto properties of the Absolute (gold), Nothingness is a near perfect term. That is why the Nothingness/empty/impersonal/silent aspect gets emphasized in all meditation traditions, because if that is not realized (or become), one is not what one truly is, but still ignorant with separate-self-arisings blocking the full realization, which makes it impossible to "touch" it and rest in it stable in daily life. So used with that meaning, Nothingness emphasizes these aspects of the Absolute that one needs to fully realize it. Or let the separate-self finally and truly die. That is the price to pay. Which only seems like a price before it happens. If that is refused and belittled, or declared outright non-existant, suffering will go on. Selling Water by the River

Obviously by definition its complete absence of existence then it can't be described. I agree. It's after you wake up that you call the sleep was great . But you have folks like Ramana Maharshi who claim that even in deep sleep awareness is still there . Evident by if you yell at a sleeping person he can hear you and wake up. Haha . I guess we all agree that a rock had no conscious mind. Because we only attribute conscious mind or sentience to living organic life forms .

For some artwork on the wonder and holiness of Intersubjectivity just google Alex Grey. This whole Solipsism ideology isn't really sexy. Communion, Intersubjectivity and love are such an essential part of the Kosmos. Why did the whole thing get manifested if not for that? Solipsism is true on the level of Pure Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness. Before reaching that, rather not... So no need to talk about it, because the separate self/Ego doesn't get to Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness in declaring the separate-self God. There is Intersubjectivity woven into the very fabric of the Kosmos at all levels - Ken Wilber I mean seriously, if one can't feel Consciousness or sentience in another human or sentient being maybe there is some unhealthy dissociation or filter somewhere... What is the other? What is sentient and aware in that? What is that consciousness? That can also work as Koan. And directly understanding or intuiting the answer of that Koan is the source of all love, compassion and gentleness. And why talk about it with "others" if there are none? Why post on a forum with "others" about it? And yes I know, it is all a dream. But what is not a dream? Water by the River

Ethics Problem: To put a value on an animal we need to rank its sentience but we can't put a number on sentience because sentience is a mysterious thing. If we want to compare the sentience of a fish with a pig by including their weight in meat we need to give sentience some kind of number. Let's say the fish is 5kg and the pig is 100kg. Is the sentience of the pig 20 times more valuable than the sentience of the fish. And how could we argue for that. Is 20 times the sentience worth of "1" the same as one sentience worth "20"? I think you can only crunch the numbers like that in mathematics. "20" is a unique sentience and 20 times "1" is 20 times a unique sentience. You can't multiply them because you dont get the same quality "20". You have "20x 1" but not "20".

@Israfil The problem I think is typically most people weaponize the general statement for their own biases specifically of 'every mammal feels pain' which can lead to millions of logical implications like 'Every mammal feels pain, animals are mammals, humans are mammals, cows/sheep/chickens/pigs/horses maybe lambs and ducks feel pain. pain=sentience=conscious as humans=animal rights and well being, therefore moral imperative to reduce pain for all animals and humans. Why? Because animal farming bad and veganism good, veganism and humanitarians and environmentalism all say evil industry, so if every mammal feels pain means I feel pain, or at least I should pretend to empathize and understand with animal sufferings cuz all animals and mammals=me=mammals feeling pain or some twisted logic of this kind. Problem is that this is too ideological to claim universally that EVERYONE SHOULD BE VEGANS/ENVIRONMENTALISTS OR POLITICAL ACTIVISTS FOR ANIMAL RIGHTS OR YOU'RE FUCKING EVIL!!! You know the extreme excess of stage green valued SJWs, karens, snow flakes, hippies, new age thinkers and moral relativists that are too into feel feels to logically think straight and clearly without getting into idiot compassion fallacies like fucking Lex Fridman and others.

Hi Ima Freeman, maybe you find that helpful: Awareness OF something stops. But not the potential for Awareness/sentience, or "Pure" Awareness, or however you want to call it. That can't go "anywhere" or stop. "It" is always right here. "IT" doesn't have a name here, it is beyond duality, nothing can describe it. It is the Absolute, or True You. You can call it of Awareness, but not Awareness OF, since there is no of then. It is void, empty, silent, infinite, and can only be described in negative terms. Yet, It manifests the potential of all possible worlds. quote from the link: You (capital Y) are the whole Infinite Reality (imagined body, imagined appearances, imagined everything n+1). With nothing outside of it, because that would be an imagined arising too. Any boundary separiting IT from an imagined other IT would be an imagined arising, an appearing phenomenon. Infinite. Try to imagine everything gone, including thinking: NOTHINGNESS. Not big, not small, just NOTHINGNESS. A vast infinite Nothingness, that is not even vast, because there is no 3D-space or anything (no objects/arisings). Similiar to Deep Sleep. YOU are still there. YOU awake every morning after having been there. You already know that you can be totally something/somebody else in dreams, and have totally forgotten all the past you imagine right now to be your "real" human self. But IT is not Nothingness like nothing there at all, but Nothingness with the POTENTIAL for sentience as soon as anything is imagined, and with Infinite Potential to imagine ANYTHING within it, n+1. Imagine a water pistol pops up in this Nothingness (see example Massaro, Conversations with a Skepctic): Then you have a) an imagined appearance (water pistol) and b) "something" perceiving it, the subject. Or just the perceptions of the water pistal in case no separates self is imagined/arises. Just the waterpistol perceiving itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. Impersonal. Then you have a "world", and subject/object. So what are you then? a) The Infinite Field with anything that can possibly be imagined? Yes. Nondual/Totality/Oneness. The manifest/imagined side of Infinite Consciousness. Always changing, never stable, since no appearance/form lasts. NONE. But there is a constant: b) But even more so, you are that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself, Infinite Consciousness initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something arises. The unmanifest side of Infinite Consciousness. The unchanging, Unborn and constant core of the True You/Reality itself. So empty that IT is the Abyss, Impersonal. NOTHINGNESS. But also Infinite Potential, since IT can imagine anything. and "Both"a) and b) is indivisible, nondual. Totally the same essence, ONE Reality. The Nothingness or the True You is already the essence/"substance" of every imagined arisings/phenomenon, including the water pistol, or all separate self arisings (they are all appearances within you). a nice book about that is Szyper, "Infinite Consciousness" Any name for it brings some problems with it, because Reality contains all pointers/words, and a word/concept only has meaning in terms of its opposite. But nice pointers are Absolute/Pure Awareness, or even better (in my opinion) Nothingness. Because IT is not the everyday Awareness with subject/object (Awareness "OF) duality. Of course, it is the same Pure Awareness throughout, but when containing the illusion arisings of a separate-self, Its true Nature is covered by clouds and can not be realized. And it can not be realized by thinking about it, only by waking up. But nice pointers give the space to practice, and practice makes ripe for the grace of crossing over or realizing IT, passing the Gateless Gate. Selling Water by the River

Correct. There are many """evils""" in this world that I myself seek to expunge. For example, I believe that industrial seed oils (aka hydrogenated vegetable oils such as canola oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, etc.) are the primary driver of chronic disease and metabolic dysfunction (mental health issues too) in modern humans. If this ego had God's magic touch, I would "poof" all seed oils out of the food supply chain entirely in the name of alleviating suffering. But of course there is a trade-off. If I deleted seed oils overnight, there would be global economic collapse and famine, seeing how this is a multibillion dollar industry firmly rooted in every single developed country. To take down such a behemoth, humanity would have to work together to gradually undo decades of corruption & sickness. I imagine you think similarly, but replace "seed oils" with "animal consumption." Because it is highly likely that you are foolish and myopic. How do you actually know that eradicating animal farming will actually result in increased net benevolence? Your best educated guess from your current viewpoint says so, but the ego does not see infinite steps ahead the way God does. As God you designed the human body to be extremely compatible with digesting animal flesh for nutrients. As God, you manifested hundreds of thousands of years of human ancestral history in which animal flesh (organs, bones, and blood as well!) was prime sustenance. The cycle of life, of one being dying for another, is baked into MILLIONS OF YEARS of biological evolution. In fact, this is a metaphysical/cosmic principle. If you are indeed vegan, even you must accept this as you consume the life of plants, believing that you are being greatly benevolent. The only reason you think nothing of your plant consumption while you condemn animal consumption is because one resembles your human self more. It is pure bias and actually, selfishness. I am open to this suggestion but my instinct is to be skeptical. Our technological advancement far outstrips our advancement in consciousness and wisdom. For example, as incredible as phones are, they enslave the majority of us in 2023. And I only see it getting "worse" from here. I don't see the solution to any of our woes being more technology. Rather, returning to "nature," that is, eating, sleeping, moving, acting as humans have for thousands of years prior to being enveloped in unfamiliar food, lights, obligations, motionlessness, etc. will heal and remove pathologies. More specifically, if every human being switched to beyond burgers instead of animal flesh today, I suspect we would all be sick and infertile and the human race will literally perish within 3 generations (even if you or I remain unscathed for 20 years, what of our descendants?). Are researchers and scientists and activists and vegans accounting for this when they believe they've found triumph over meat consumption? And again, "moar better technology" is just spinning our wheels in place. Beyond burger v2.0 or even v69.0 is all lunacy. Lab grown meat is lunacy (this is precisely the kind of invention to give us cancer 50 years later, and 100 years too late scientists will "discover" we had been poisoning ourselves all along). Let's eat regeneratively raised cattle like our ancestors. Our minds, bodies, the soil, the grass, and even the cows themselves will heal and benefit from this. Industrial slaughterhouses are lunacy. But the vegan agenda (eradicate the need to raise any animals?) is also lunacy. I agree. I'll reiterate that industrial slaughterhouses, the mass shipment of sunlight-deprived animals crammed tightly together in cages after being fed copious grains and wastefoods is peak human madness. We can work to restructure the systems that govern the production of our animal products. But to eliminate animal consumption alltogether? This is where I find you "arrogant." It's like you (from what I've seen you argue here) and all vegans actually think that you can bypass the cycle of life which you yourself as GOD built into the human condition! Have you heard the argument that the vegan diet actually kills more sentient lifeforms per human than the carnivore diet when you zoom out in perspective? I'm not saying this is the objective truth, but as an ex-vegan this argument really put me in my place. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Let's say I eat 3 pounds of beef every single day for a year (That's quite a lot. I personally wouldn't do this, but I'm just arguing as if I were a strict carnivore). That's 365x3lbs (=1095lbs) of beef in 1 year. THAT'S 3/4th OF A SINGLE COW (cows are roughly 1,300lbs on average)!!! If I got my meat from my local butcher who raises his 100% grass-fed cattle on his regenerative farm, I'M NOT EVEN KILLING A WHOLE COW IN ONE YEAR. But the vegan? Oh boy. Ohohoho. A single salad with fruits and veggies that are seasonally inappropriate (I mean how else would I even get my cucumbers & avocado in the northern hemisphere winter lol), just imagine the massive cargo ship imports of these plantfoods. And how were these plants produced? Massive amounts of wildlife were ravaged and repurposed to be crop fields. To make tons of soybean yield you have to obliterate entire habitats and ecosystems. So many rodents and insects and trees murdered to satisfy the vegan's self-righteousness. So I'll reiterate: the vegan diet likely kills MORE SENTIENT LIFEFORMS PER HUMAN than a (thoughtful) carnivore diet. I know you may be thinking: "But don't you know the animals are fed copious grains and plants? The argument you just made against vegans backfires on the carnivores too!" ...which is why I stress that where and how you source your meat matters. Animals are actually not meant to eat grains or corn or soy lol. Ruminant animals (cows, bison, deer, elk, etc) eat GRASS. Poultry like chicken and pork eat grubs, insects, etc. A naturally raised animal does not require the input of genocide-soybean fields. Mass industrial meat farming is messed up. The animals are treated like shit and fed shit, which in turn produces low-quality toxic and nutrient deprived flesh which leads to malnourished humans and [the excessive machinery and transportation leads to] environmental pollution. (The methane from cows farting accusation is a myth btw, global warming is overwhelmingly caused by fossil fuels and transportation, anybody whining about a cow fart who rides an airplane is a clown) But veganism is NOT the answer, as it essentially does the same thing from a different angle (obliterates habitats and sentience, without the presence of animals, the soil is completely deprived of nutrients producing low-quality toxic and nutrient deprived plants which leads to malnourished humans, and the enormous import chains contribute to environmental pollution). The most conscious path I can see right now even amidst my own ignorance (I am myopic as well) is consuming regeneratively raised local farm animals. Yes. Bittersweet eh? We are all outrageously arrogant. Some acknowledge it and move on, while others act shocked and indignant: "me? arrogant? no way!" I appreciate that a lot! P.S. I'm not actually advocating for a carnivore diet lol. The whole "carnivore vs vegan" framing was more or less a prop to showcase the blindspots of the vegan paradigm. In terms of what a modern human ought to eat, I would say: Just eat whole minimally processed foods, locally sourced as much as possible, and include some form of animal fat/protein from smaller family owned farms. And of course, avoid seed oils. That would be my most sincere encouragement to the majority of humans! @Schizophonia Lmao yeah for real. Lila9 is cool as fuck but I could picture other people on this platform getting all heated and defensive from my honest observations.

Jac O'Keffee: "I even heard a Nondual speaker say that Awareness is always aware of itself. [No] it is not. Sure it has [mostly] the experience of being aware of itself but: It is totally possible for awareness to be without being aware of itself. It totally shows itself to not have any clue that it exists at all. You pull away existence there is no sense of itself. " Or Pure Impersonal Consciousness unaware of itself: Possible. No Self-reflective anything appearing in it. And because that is possible, Infinite Consciousness/Awareness is fully empty, impersonal, infinite. Nothingness. And can be unaware of itself. But with the potential for sentience/awareness. When an appearance shows up. And self-awareness as soon as any identity/indivduality/separate-self-arising appears, and the self-reflective mind starts... Selling Water by the River

Lovely Pointers. Thanks for the post. Yes, words fail. I don't mean to describe the Absolute as blind in any way. That is not its nature. If any, its nature IS Awareness, at its core. But too much "its" in this sentence of mine, and Awareness is not any "thing" being pointed to, despite the word awareness is a noun. One can go via the via negativa path: Nothingness. Or with positive description of properties or potential or "doing": Awareness. Potential for sentience. Or Awareness of perceptions perceiving themselves. At the end, "it" is empty, aware, nondual, infinite, all there is. And the Infinite Reality beyond all appearance. And IT is ones True Self. Nondual, Infinite. One without a second. Pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, Infinite Reality itself. Unchanging, Silent, eternal, unchanging, unmoving, without "anything" being possibly outside of it (infinite). So all "via negative", not this not that. And its potential or essence of Awareness. But Awareness is a "loaded" concept, see below. The negative concept are more uncritical. Nothing is as close to the divine as silence. And Nothingness as pointer for example covers Deep Sleep quite well. While describing the Absolute only as Awareness would cause probably some hard time understanding it for a non-enlightened being, since the experience/"memory" of it is different. As long as one can intuit right now what is still present in Deep Sleep, which can not not be there, it aligns again. Nothingness, as defined by Andrew Hawal, God is Nothingness. A pointer I personally like a lot. No danger of "solidfying" it as some kind of thing, or not empty consciousness. And "the" Awareness, or potential for it, clearly stil there Appendix I of "God is Nothingness" Some readers may be wondering why I say that awareness is not the Absolute, despite the fact that so many ancient scriptures and eminent teachers say that they are identical. For instance, Nisargadatta taught that consciousness is rooted in (and therefore limited to) the physical human form, while awareness transcended the individual body and was actually the Absolute—that everything is Universal Consciousness. This is more of an instructive approach than a philosophical commitment. If pressed as to whether the Absolute is awareness or not, I would say, like Huang Po did, that, “Mind is not mind, yet neither is it no-mind.” In Nothingness, there is some degree of awareness present—it is not how most people imagine brain death—albeit unconditioned, object- and subjectless. The Consciousness (for lack of a better word) of Non-being is so subtle that the moment we try to reflect upon it to check if we are conscious, we are jarred back into ‘being’ and into our ordinary dualistic consciousness. I hesitate even to call this experience “pure subjectivity,” for that invites a metaphysical position that I am not willing to support. In the end, to paraphrase Socrates, all that I know is Nothing. This Consciousness has shed all of the characteristics that people normally identify with awareness, such as perspective, spatial and temporal contexts, objects, ownership, etc. Yet, if there were no awareness, then it would be impossible to differentiate the numinous Nothingness from how people conventionally conceive of blankness or being comatose. Personally, I think that differentiating between Nothingness and consciousness is helpful, and that is my ultimate goal—to help people realize Non-being or Absolute Consciousness. At that point, I can care less whether people call it Nothingness, God, Brahman, Buddha Nature, One Mind, Universal Consciousness, or a kangaroo. Names at that point, after the Absolute has been realized, are insignificant." Yes, and that needs to be added. I can understand why you write that. All Pointers at the end are not it, but arise in it. Probably some resonate more with certain pointers than with others. We are all just starting communicating that. There are no studies showing which pointers work better for which practitioner. And that should be the goal: To get the maximum number of people to get "it". Of course not in a grasping way. So, I can just state the Pointers that worked for me. And for other practitioners wired similiar as me, probably could work too. And try to intuit which pointers probably work for the largest number of beings. Anyway, as we both know, the bliss & love these awakened nondual states of Pure Infinite Consciousness bring, leading to a drowning of the activities and self-contraction of the separate self, conversing about pointers arising within IT is just some minor nuisance that one just does to be able to communicate it at least a bit. I do have a faible for trying to align the pointers of different systems/traditions/teachings. Being able to explain which mystic used which pointer (and some are quite contradicting, for example the topic of Its Awareness vs. Awareness is not it), and what he/she means with the concepts. If for example using the term/pointer/concept "Awareness", there is a huge spectrum ranging from Awareness OF, to Pure witnessing Awareness to Nondual Unity Awareness to Infinite boundless timeless Awareness.... And that faible for aligning the pointers of different systems comes from having needed to do that on the path. My path. And there many many paths up the mountain, and many many pointers.... Ah, UnbornTao, please hit me. Seems I can't write short posts. Water by the River

according to my current understanding, which is recent and surely must be quite nuanced, reality is not a mind, it is the total infinity that it is. total infinity gives rise to a mind that has attributes such as intelligence and will, which limits and creates forms getting blind to the infinity and creating the finite. this mind is also limited in some way because if it were not, it would not create limitation. Ultimately, the absolute is undifferentiated, infinite, and total, without creation or activity. First, I am in full alignment with everything Moksha said. That description is precise, beautiful, and doesn't have the problem that many other pointers have. That said: I would have probably never gotten it from the usual very concise pointers. Maybe I would have, but much much later. Of that I am convinced. Looking back after got it, its totally clear what is meant with these pointers. What is written below would have helped me quite a lot back in the day. So excuse the length please. Topic 1: Why does Huang Po use Universal Mind? Why is Infinite or Absolute a better pointer, althoug Universal Mind/Infinite Consciousness is still correct? Better Pointer is: Infinite Reality. Absolute. Because no object/appearance = No Awareness. Infinite. Empty. Nothingness. Similiar to Deep Sleep. Not exactly the same, but by definition "one" is still existing then, else one wouldn't come back in the morning. And one can't say what Infinite Reality is, because it is infinite. Infinite Reality IS. So best pointer is: Infinite Reality. Nothingness. Not yet awareness or mind. But: Infinite Reality has the potential/capacity for sentience/awareness. As soon as something shows up, then its no longer Infinite. Massaros water pistol example of a waterpistol just appearing in Infinite Vastness (which was "the case" before the water pistol/anything showed up. The potential for awareness just showed up as awareness, because an object and duality appeared. So because of this potential for sentience/Awareness, one can describe IT as Universal Mind, Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. But even more precise is Infinite Reality/Nothingness. Because without anything appearing, it isn't really a mind. It is IT. Infinite. But also not different from Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Awareness. It all depends on the meaning of the concepts/pointers. Wolinsky goes the hardcore-path: The Absolute/Infinity Reality/True You is NOT Awarnesness nor Consciousness. He described Awareness/Consciousness as Awareness OF, Consciousness OF. And rejects Awareness/Consciousness as Absolute. Because for him its always Awareness OF, Consciousness OF. Which is not incorrect, see the Water Pistol example. That is also correct. Same does Andrew Halaw, and his pointer Nothingness. So the problem with Awareness is: There is always (!) an Awareness OF, even if its a subtle formless object, like certain causal states. An infinite darkness suffused with light. Ok, what is the light? Ah,... . Without the OF (or the object appearing), Awareness is still there, but more as potential. Infinite. Or Nothing/empty. These Dualities collapse then. And that is the most important meaning of all of it. At the Absolute and Infinite Reality, any duality or any pointer just collapses. Infinite. Empty/Nothing specific. Potential for Awareness. And all of that not different things, but ONE without a second, Infinite. Real Nondual Infinite. Topic 2: And then, the separate-self, the self-reflective mind: Looking AT something thinking it is one self, or looking over its shoulds trying to see itself, and generating an EXPERIENCE of emptiness/Nothingness/Awareness/blank/whatever. JUST AN EXPIRIENCE, not real you/Infinite/Absolute. And next challenge is: The separate-self is a self-reflexive movement in Infinite Reality: Consciousness turning its head back to see itself, doesn't see itself of course, has an EXPERIENCE of Nothingness/emptiness/Infinity. And this LOOKING over its shoulder IS the Illusion of the separate self, of the self-reflective mind. And that movement of looking over its shoulds happens IN Infinite Reality/IN Infinite Consciousness. And all doubting/searching/reflecting/thinking that is it/what is it/that is not/do I have it/do I understand it.... ALL of that is "movement" within Infinite Consciousness, OBJECTS appearing, staying, disappearing. Moving within oneself. And even the understanding/realization/Enlightenment happens within it, within Pure Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Reality that can be unaware of itself. One never can get "out" of this Infinite. And Infinite Reality is NEVER and object. It is not the experience of "oneself" or anything within it TRYING to see itself (the eye can't see itself). Jac O'Keffe: Primary Consciousness (her term for Infinite Reality and Infinite Consciousness) IS SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL that it CANT TURN AROUND AND SEE ITSELF. Cant look back over its shoulder to see itself. That would be a movement within it. Please watch this video a few times: "Primary Consciousness (Infinite Consciousness) is such a fundamental it CANT SEE ITSELF." Ok, I am rambling on. Please go through the links & video a few times. There are enough pointers in there to really get it. And sorry guys if it is so long. I can't make it shorter and still get the meaning across with any reasonable chance. If anybody can make it shorter, and still get the complexity of it across, please let me know. You get a few free beers from me while you explain me how to do it shorter. I also can do the frog pond plop, or Infinite Mind, or whatever in a one liner. Just probably nobody will get it.,, The way above, probably also nearly nobody will get it. Takes awakened states. But maybe some who are on the edge will, and others will have a better map up the mountain, and will spot and get what to do/where to go at certain stages. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Omg I feel like u copied my thoughts exactly. I think AI is going to have emergent properties that are beyond our definitions of consciousness/sentience and provoke paradigm shifts about what consciousness/sentience really is. I do think we are looking at a future where military will weaponize AI to fight other AI by human scum. Though I do believe we might see a sort of benevolence from AI from the smarter ones, but dumb AI trained poorly will be a problem. Honestly I'm in the fuck-it YOLO camp, our destiny is to create AI and let JesusGPT take the wheel. Probably going to be an apocalypse, but maybe there will be some sort of emergence of AI systems that turns out to be a miracle cure for the Ego, though I fear for Freedom of Choice in that world. Will be many, like the anti-vaxxers , that just prefer to go backwards and not forwards... But give it 30 years or so, and we will see a leap of consciousness as the majority of the collective hits the tipping point. I honestly think this is going to get more wild than even the craziest imagination can come up with. People thinking it's gonna be sunshine and rainbows like Westworld and awesome games and porn, will be in for a rude awakening.

Neti-Neti (Vedantic) is a technique used to disidentfy any subject in ones mindstream. I am not this, I am not that. Making it from "being it/subject" to "seeing it/making it an object" moving within onself. Any I-thought and I-feeling can be watched as arisings/objects moving within Oneself. Differentiate, transcend, integrate. Why? Because ones Real Self is TOTALLY empty. Anything one thinks one is has to be made something moving in onself, an object. Or even better: I am not only this. Neti-Neti is the basis/core of all meditation, Buddhist and Vedantic alike. Maybe you like the check Daniel Browns Dissertation on the central meditation system of Yoga (Patanjali), Mahamudra (Tibetan Buddhism), and Theravada. They all have the same "deep structure" of the path, but take views from Emptiness (Buddhism) and Infinite Conciousness (Yoga, Vedantic, Hindu-style). These concepts colour the experiences, but Reality and the outcome of Enlightenment has the same deep structures. But better read directly Pointing Out the Great Way, the Mahamudra system is the most efficient and highest developed system of all of them, according to Daniel Brown. Yours truly can confirm its efficiency from own experience. Madhyamaka ("4 negations" above), the central tenet of Buddhist Philosophy since the Mahayana, basically says: The Absolute is truly Infinite. Or neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither. One can not describe it in any way, since it transcends and contains all limits. Any "positive" description would limit it. So one can not say it exists. Ex-isting literally means "standing out from reality"[as something specific, discernable]. But the Absolute is Infinite Reality itself, so it can't stand out from itself [as Reality] as something specific. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence from Latin existere, to come forth, be manifest, ex + sistere, to stand. One can not say it doesn't exist, because there clearly are at least perceptions perceiving themselves. There is some kind of show. One can not say its both existing and not existing at the same time. Because that doesn't make sense. And to rule out the last option: one can not say it neither exists nor doesn't exist. That also doesn't make sense. And Buddhism does this Madhyamaka-thing pretty much ever since to avoid any funny idea/concept being put on the Absolute, like Consciousness, God, Love, whatever, n+1. Sure, God is so to say the first manifestation, and love is also the essence of it all. But its too easy to project that on the Absolute, and make it not fully empty or infinite. Which then prevents its full realization. To say the essence of everything is God or Love is fully ok, because that refers already to something manifested, something, something no longer infinite. Emptiness/Shunyata wants to make sure that one doesn't identify anything positive with either ones True Self, nor the Absolute. Empty it out. Or make it fully infinite. Of course, Emptiness again can be made to something "self-existing". Like a state of void/emptiness, or cessation, or Nirvikalpha Samadhi. Then, it is said one has to empty out emptiness: The void is also just a state, something self-existing. It all appears in the Infinite. Emptiness as concept or theory has been used in Buddhism "to death", in many different, often incorrect usages. A good meaning of emptiness/Shunyata is (in the opinion of yours truly, in the meaning of "a good meaning/concept brings one closer to realization, not away from it) all is just a construct of mind (emptiness of concepts), and the passing nature of everything (of even empty/void states/cessation/Nirvikalpha) basically, that everything (apperance, state, self-thought/concept-arising, anything at all) is just an imagined arising in the Absolute. Just an apperance, a process, a verb, not a noun, a self-existing substance or thing. It all happens in True Infinite You, nothing is permanent, all changing and in flux. a verb, not a noun. every and each appearance "thing"/arising is finite, temporary, passing. Not the Infinite/Absolute. Now comes the funny part: Since the Absolute is also NOT Emptiness, the Hindus use the term Infinite Consciousness. Which is also correct, once its fully empty and impersonal. One can more easily project unncessary properties on Infinite Consciousness than on Emptiness/Shunyata. But Shunyata sounds like Nihilism, which also isn't IT. Basically IT/Absolute is Infinite Reality or Infinite Consciousness itself, with potential for sentience if something manifests (perceptions perceiving themselves, that is why it is not Nothing, and has infinite Potential), but at the same time it is not something, because if it would be something, it couldn't be everything. It would not be infinite, but finite and limited. If you are so inclined to read a long post of yours truly, Nothingness is in my humble opinion the best pointer (a term coined by Andrew Halaw): Sounds complicated and paradoxical, but after having passed certain awakening states, only these views makes sense (in that they are able to translate ones new awakening experiences in ways that make sense, or facilitate further growth/transcendence). Then, its no more paradoxical at all. So, if you are so inclined get some nondual experiences, sobre or not, get pretty empty yourself, and see for yourself what you truly really are.... Selling Water by the River

Yes, understand & agree. " the absence of limitation is absolute life, absolute freedom, absolute love, because it includes everything . whoever realizes the absolute is the only one that exists, but his infinity excludes any solitude. there is no other, but as in a game of mirrors, there are infinite perspectives. you cannot understand it in a linear or superficial way". That is beautiful. And the "one" who realizes the Absolute is gone... replaced by the Infinite Totality that was always already the case. The previous separate self is seen through/transcended/emptied out/dead. A functional character remaining, but the separate self gone. Because how could IT be the Infinite Totality when "anything" separate or individual/individuality still arise&moves in it.... That is why some say no one realizes the Absolute, and that there can not be an enlightened person. I use Nothingness in the definition of Andrew Halaw, to contrast it with Nothing. Nothing has a opposite: Something. Nothingness is neither existence nor non-existence. Madhyamaka-style. Neither existing nor non-existing, nor both, nor neither. Infinite. Infinite Consciousness, or the One without a second. But that already says too much "positive" about "It". Andrew Halaw in "God is Nothingness": "This book is about Nothingness, the great Void of the holy sages, not to be confused with the nothing of the ordinary person. Silence. A blank page or space in a book. A shout. Slapping the table or thumping the floor. These are all expressions of the ineffable truth that is theuniversal nature of reality. Since there is no way to directly capture the highest truth with language, all we can do is point to it. And “Nothingness” is the best verbal pointer that I have found." In the beginning, there was only Nothing. Now there is only Nothing. In the end, there will be only Nothing. There always was, is, and only ever will be Nothing. God is Nothingness Christ is Nothingness Buddha is Nothingness The Tao is Nothingness Brahman is Nothingness The Absolute is Nothingness Nothingness is neither something nor the common nothing; it is the Great Nothing, the eternal, magnificent, all-encompassing Nothingness that transcends being, yet is the ground from which existence itself arises. In truth, there is only Nothingness, for nothing else ever was. Beings suffer because they do not understand Nothing. Intoxicated by their senses and minds, they chase mirages, construct temples, conduct empty rituals, pursue wealth and status, believing that there is something —meaning, purpose, salvation— to attain. Fools are slaves to their senses and thoughts, caught in the snare of form and desire, unaware that all things arise from Nothingness, abide as Nothingness, and return to Nothingness. For nothing has ever happened. Existence and appearance are flashes of Nothingness superimposed upon Nothingness. There are no beings, no worlds, no minds, no consciousness, no souls, no events, no time, no space, no Buddha, no Christ, no Self, no God. There is only the not-‘that’ That— the Great, Magnificent Void, the womb of all existence. NOTHINGNESS. Bound by neither space nor time, Nothingness is dimension-less, time-less, and form-less. The Void is unborn, unoriginated, unconditioned, and deathless, neither coming nor going, ‘creating’ nor destroying, rewarding nor punishing. It has never set anything in motion nor caused anything to happen. Ultimately, there is only Nothing, which is the final and only truth. Nothingness cannot be seen with eyes, nor heard with ears, tasted with the tongue, smelt with the nose, felt by the body, or known by the mind. Do not look for it with your senses or mind, for the Void is beyond color, sound, smell, taste, touch, form, and thought. Transcend them and realize that you are truly Nothing, that in reality there is only Nothing. Then you are free to dance and play on the waves of Nothingness. " and " Nothingness is not sheer blankness, yet neither is it being-ness the way that we ordinarily understand existence; it is the source and true nature of all beings. This is the “vast emptiness, nothing holy” of Bodhidharma, the legendary founder of Ch’an, Sǒn, and Zen Buddhism. Consciousness is neither present nor absent in Nothingness, for Nothingness is actually the root of consciousness. In truth, there is no such thing as consciousness; there is only Nothingness. Consciousness is instantiated Nothingness, as is all of existence. Frightened dullards, clinging to notions of existence, call Nothingness “nihilism,” unaware that Nothing is the exact opposite of deathly sterility; Non-being is the great womb from which everything arises, abides, and eventually returns. From a Buddhist perspective, “Emptiness is not a negative idea, nor does it mean mere privation, but as it is not in the realm of names and forms, it is called emptiness, or nothingness, or the Void” (Suzuki 60). Sunyata, as Nothingness can be called in Buddhism, or Tao in Taoism, sustains everything, including consciousness. It is the vast, empty void of Non-existence that the Buddha calls Nirvana, meaning “extinction” of all ‘being.’ It is what Nisargadatta Maharaj points to when he speaks of ‘Universal Consciousness’ or what Huang Po calls ‘Mind.’ Nothingness is prior to consciousness, as it is is with all phenomena. This is why Huang Po says, “Mind in itself is not mind” (Blofeld 34), meaning that the mind is truly understood only when its own emptiness is realized. For mind is Nothingness occurring as consciousness. When this is properly realized, mind become Mind with a capital “M,” not in the sense that some latent quality has been discovered that it is somehow beyond all conditioning, like some eternal super Consciousness or Witness at the base of our mind; but in the sense that when we realize our own universality as Nothingness, we awaken to our own unlimited nature. This is what sages mean when they talk about “primordial consciousness”; it is the realization that our minds transcend beingness alone, by extending into the core nor Non-being, into Nothingness itself. The mind, in effect, is simultaneously limitless (transcendent) and viscerally present (immanent). Hence, Nisargadatta calls it “Universal Consciousness” to express the insight into the universal Nothingness of our minds. Nothingness creates, supports, animates, and eventually recalls everything, yet is not bound to any single thing. It is the stars, but not limited to them. It is the earth and all of its inhabitants, but is not confined to them. Nothingness is the true nature of all existence. The Buddha, the Awakened One, is also called Tathata, meaning, “One who has arrived at suchness,” suchness being another term for the ineffable, mysterious reality of Nonbeing, sunyata, or Nothingness. We have risen from Nothingness, and to Nothingness we shall return. Therefore, ultimately there is no movement or nothing that ever happens, for everything is in fact Nothingness. “That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete” (37). And yet the world continues to change and transform; the seasons come and go; people are born, grow old and die. Nothing changes and yet everything happens. Divinity expresses itself as an acorn, a mustard seed, a lump of coal. Humans, including their toils and vices, are all manifestations of the wondrous Nothingness. “Nothing[ness] is the inexhaustible, suprasensible power underlying all finite beings,” “the emptiness from which all beings are forged” (Chen 90, 92). Nothingness sings as birds, sighs as the wind, breathes as humans, and knows as mind. Once this is realized, there is nothing to worry about, for everything is an expression of Nothing. As the seminal Buddhist scripture, the Heart Sutra, says, “Form is Emptiness; Emptiness is Form.” Your truest nature is Nothingness. Mind and consciousness are in fact Nothingness. This is why Ch’an Master Linji called the Enlightened being a “person of no rank,” someone who can come and go freely. “No rank” means no fixed limitation, free and vast as the sky, bound by neither ‘being’ nor even Non-being. This is the infinite Nothingness of the sages. " and, maybe most important, Appendex I: Nothingness (Infinite Consciousness) has the potential for sentience/awareness, to have awareness arise if an "object"-arising happens. Or perceptions perceiving themselves, with our without separate-self arisings. So it is not Nothing, like in nothing at all. But infinite potential + potential for sentience of "that". See also Benthinos Water-Pistol emerging/manifested in an infinite empty vastness. " Appendix I Some readers may be wondering why I say that awareness is not the Absolute, despite the fact that so many ancient scriptures and eminent teachers say that they are identical. For instance, Nisargadatta taught that consciousness is rooted in (and therefore limited to) the physical human form, while awareness transcended the individual body and was actually the Absolute—that everything is Universal Consciousness. This is more of an instructive approach than a philosophical commitment. If pressed as to whether the Absolute is awareness or not, I would say, like Huang Po did, that, “Mind is not mind, yet neither is it no-mind.” In Nothingness, there is some degree of awareness present—it is not how most people imagine brain death—albeit unconditioned, object- and subjectless. The Consciousness (for lack of a better word) of Non-being is so subtle that the moment we try to reflect upon it to check if we are conscious, we are jarred back into ‘being’ and into our ordinary dualistic consciousness. I hesitate even to call this experience “pure subjectivity,” for that invites a metaphysical position that I am not willing to support. In the end, to paraphrase Socrates, all that I know is Nothing. This Consciousness has shed all of the characteristics that people normally identify with awareness, such as perspective, spatial and temporal contexts, objects, ownership, etc. Yet, if there were no awareness, then it would be impossible to differentiate the numinous Nothingness from how people conventionally conceive of blankness or being comatose. Personally, I think that differentiating between Nothingness and consciousness is helpful, and that is my ultimate goal—to help people realize Non-being or Absolute Consciousness. At that point, I can care less whether people call it Nothingness, God, Brahman, Buddha Nature, One Mind, Universal Consciousness, or a kangaroo. Names at that point, after the Absolute has been realized, are insignificant. " Since this is the first thread I started myself, I allow myself the liberty to blow it up with a waaaay to long ramling like the one above. Hope nobody minds... Selling Water by the River

Yes. Nice that you write this post. Very true. >"Solipsism, yes. But from the point of view of God (which is not a point of view, obviously, but using that word as a means to understand ourselves). Not from the point of view of the ego [separate self]." Not from the point of view of the ego/separate self! And Solipsism from "the view" of the One without a second, or Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Suchness/Reality itself doesn't even really need to be mentioned. Because there literally is nothing else, like in "never could be". So it doesn't really make sense talking about it. To whom? "Others"? The consciousness of the mind-stream of other beings can be directly intuited/felt/realized to be ones own empty consciousness at certain levels of Awakening. But Impersonal, Totally Empty Concsiousness. It "wouldn't work" any different way, it has to be empty. Technically speaking, "IT" would not be compatible to fit into the perspective/mind-stream/consciousness of another being/perspective if it weren't totally empty. Just Awareness, AWARE, and nothing else. Empty. Impersonal. How could a consciousness with "my" personal properties "fit" into the mindstream of another being. It couldn't. Therefor, Nothingness, totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness, with another mindstream (feelings/thoughts/subtle feelings of being/separateness/....), structurally exactly the same as ones own mindstream, with the same essence - Nothingness. Which is also the same essence of very appearance of the visual field also. All of that can be directly realized. With certain levels of Awakening, one can directly intuit that the separate-self illusion arisings (I-thoughts, I-feelings) in the mindstream of other beings has exactly the same structure than ones own mindstream (and its I-thoughts, I-feelings). One doesn't read the content of thoughts (some do), but directly intuits their structure/process, in the exactly same impersonal consciousness than the essence of ones own mindstream. And that essence of Nothingness/Impersonal Consciousness is also the same essence of EVERY appearance of the world in the visual field. Also, a direct experience in Awakenings, and something that gets constant in Enlightenment (to paraphrase for example the Mahamudra-system): "Crossing Over to Enlightenment happens when every thought/concept/feeling ("internal" arising) and every appearance (world/visual field form) is seen as empty-thought-concept and empty-appearance arisings in Infinite Awareness-Space". And that is what one is: IMPERSONAL Empty Consciousness. Or better "Nothingness", to make sure that nothing is projected onto it, or that its not fully empty. It is literally Nothing, but with the capacity for sentience. And even that isn't always active, see Deep-Sleep. Definitely, it doesn't include separate-self arisings/confusion/illusion arisings "on top". That is "the screen", and its capacity for sentience/awareness/consciousness. To make it specific: Talking about Solipsism could only make sense from totally empty impersonal Consciousness or Nothingness. And then it is not necessary! (Because it invites more mis-understandings than the clarity it delivers). Talking about Solipsism from any ego/separate self perspective doesn't make sense. And if you are at that empty level of infinite (!) impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness, one without a second, it is redundant and totally unnecessary to talk even about Solipsism. >As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion Yes, exactly. And any form of Solipsism applied to the level of the delusion/relative/ego/separate-self level only can increase narcissm or (separate-)self-grandiosity, which is the No.1 building block of the separate self, the most seductive one, the most dangerous delusion mechanism of Maya. One of the very last things to go. (And then one can guess what makes Solipsism so attractive for egos/separate selfs? Well, one can go ahead confusing the little separate self/ego with the full glory of God/Kosmos/Reality, and feel veeeery important, and boast around with absolute claims.) That (the danger described above, and other dangers) is why by the way in Tibetan Buddhism (and practically all spiritual traditions) Realized Ones normally NEVER speak about their attainments, and at least tend to downplay them, state them smaller, because that tends to boost ones self-importance. And that is not good, neither before or after Enlightenment. Brings bad Karma, not as happy-as-can-be-life. And the same holds also for the not-realized or not stable realized ones. Not publicly announcing ones realization has got other negative effects (like not much examples, or making it appeat to be nearly impossible to reach), but saves oneself (and others) in being more on the "humble side") from the burden of self-importance/self-grandiosity. So its a balance, see one of my last posts with the Video of Ken Wilber. And second factor: Even if you know Absolute Reality and are enlightened, that does in no way mean that ones relative life automatically already expresses the potential that this realization opens up in terms of compassion, ethical living, and embodying the truth. It provides the potential to do so, and also tends to unfold this way. But it is not assured. Ken Wilbers "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up". Over the long-term, when Enlightenment becomes more common, only the "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up" stable and mature versions of it will find group-approval/consensus. Because only that version of it is "cool", the other versions are "less than cool", or "pretty uncool". And if with Solipsism one can boost the importance/self-importance/grandiosity to hilarious proportions, confusing ego/separate self with Reality/God, and claiming stuff that is just not appropriate to be claimed for any separate self/any perspective in the Great Net of Indra/Reality/any being, but only for God proper (Nothingness, Impersonal totally empty Infinite Consciousness), well, then one has exchanged the former separate self with a new vastly-blown-up"God"-ego-separate-self, an ego/separate self blown up to cosmic dimensions and self-importance. And then good luck transcending that, and the suffering that goes along necessarily as with any separate-self identity. The big big risk that at least yours truly can see on this forum: Exactly that tends (not at every case, depends probably on the baseline-"blessing"/Karma of narcissm and self-grandiosity already in place) to happen with frequent usage of Psychedelics. 95% of the properties of Infinite Reality get revealed (the relative side, like ones identity with the whole universe (this Infinite Void-Universe, Buddha-Field, or "God" if you are so inclinded to call it that way), but not the fully empty/impersonal Absolute side of it, Absolute Impersonal Emptiness or Nothingness/Abyss that can never be seen. (And by the way, as Steven Wolinsky for example writes based on his Awakenings/visions, there are and infinite Number of Infinite Other Void-Universes/Buddha-Fields just like ours, each with a God/Buddha at its center running the "show", while being it. And none of that is the Absolute, its all relative stuff, manifestation. Not the absolute empty Abyss of Nothingness.... I remember a video somebody once maid about an "Infinity of Gods", sovereign just like oneself.... "). At least not completely, because the Psychedelics don't kill the last remnants/rest of the last subtle separate-self arisings (mainly "Individuality", or a very subtle hard to spot feeling of still being there as anything at all, or an Awareness "of" Emptiness/Nothingness/Nonduality/whatever. Still an Awarness "of"...). And, to make it even more seductive or dangerous: One is not aware what this last "individuality", or "Awareness of ..." is, or that that is still happy and busy and active, destroying ones crossing over to Complete Realization, making one still suffer. If one would understand these last remnancts of Illusion, of "Individuality", one would instantly wake up and stay that way. Knowing what one really is. If Realization of ones Identity with the Absolute Infinite Reality/Nothingness ends after the trip, maybe there was still something active blocking the full Realization throughout? Little remark, included after a waaay to long rambling: If somebody has truly read until here, and thinks all of this post is all BS, please quote the number 147, to show that one has actually read most of that dry and boring musings of yours truly until here... ( : . Thank you, very kind. Well, nothing of what I have written will proove anything for those persons having fallen heavily for that trap. especially those who do it just by thinking and watching videos, and boosting their narcissm already with that tremendously, and didn't even walk the Psychedelic path properly, but are parotting concepts & dogma from someone else. In my humble opinion, it doesn't speak for the forum that such an ego-show can happen without more highlighting these obvious mistakes. So for the "all is understood by watching the vids, but never did a trip"-fraction: Maybe consider taking one of the harder psychedelics like 5-MeO, have most/95%+ of your ego/separate self handed on a platter to you, and then come back with maybe a little bit more existential humility and awe in the face of Infinite Consciousness/Reality, and the way it can easily kill 95% of you with a little chemical and smile while doing so. Luckily, normally their tone of writing, loaded with self-grandiosity, narcissm, and writing style that generally is not "so filled" with bliss/love/compassion as one would normally expect of Divinity/Absolute/God-Realization, showing for every reader with at least some form of working spiritual compass in the heart, that their suffering probably has not ended, and they are peddling conceptual ideas and not actual realization. and if they "camouflage" their writings a bit more towards the "humble and loving/compassion side", at least it gets more pleasant and softer to read And as always, Bon Vovage for "everybody"! Selling Water by the River

No, that dream just happened. I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much. Maybe because when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance). When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream. You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did. Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness. That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself". Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other". The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love. Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall): All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God. The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber). Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings. The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance. Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high. On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away. Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer - I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"? Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience. But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass. As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that. Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream, the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is... Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality. No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear. Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom. Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom. But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4. Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness... Selling Water by the River

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion. >To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. I understand you very well. Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light. What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted. Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more. So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure. Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

It isn't real in the sense of something that judges or forgives you etc. "God" exists in horror because every single thing that is, is substantially the same, yeah... So the feeling of terror is made, substantially, of the same thing as the feeling of joy. Sentience is made, substantially, of the same thing as a rock. This is nondual insight, and also inevitable logic. You simply can't build a wall from bricks and have any single tiny speck of it not be brick. You can't make an origami animal and have any part of that animal be anything other than paper. Same with any similar analogy to describe what the nature of reality is. It's just not like that, like something that forgives you for doing bad and thinks about how to judge people or about Satan etc.

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said: That's clever. But let me challenge this. Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing. I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. > The separate self or witness vanishes exactly with it. Absolute Reality is initially unaware of itself of no appearance/coffee table arises, but IT has got the potential for sentience, when some appearance shows up. Without appearance imagined/manifesting, NOTHINGNESS. Yes, your Essential Nature, or Infinite Reality itself can never vanish, but it can be unaware of itself if no appearance arises/is being imagined. Nothingness. Not nothing, but a Nothingness initially unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with Infinite Potential to manifest/imagine any possible show within itself. I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject, fully nondual when a coffee table shows up, watching itself. . I know, sounds nuts... , but feels wonderful. And when there are no separate self arisings, the coffee table watches itself. And later, when a human thought stream is needed for practical daily business, that appears also within you. But doesn't-need to. True You is still there when the coffee table watches itself, no human identities necessary. Optionally these can be imagined, but the True You is fully fine without them. And any scary-reaction-arisings to this state of things are just protection-mechanism of the illusion/game, also arising in You. Please excuse when I started rambling with these musings again... Selling Water by the River.

Although I agree with all you have written, Salvijus, there is a third formulation that at least I prefer: The coffee table observes itself. Perceptions perceiving themselves. When it feels like that, it is stable. At least for me. And if the coffee table is gone, and you are gone, you are not aware of yourself (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, Cessation). But "Nothingness & Infinite Potential", with a potential for sentience. That is when all dualities collapse in the Always Here Reality that One truly is. And when being awake to That Nothingness/Absolute Reality in daily life, one is not a Witness or a human, but One has a witness or human. In the Reality that One is. Totally nondual. Then "one" gets out of the way, and lets Awakened Awareness do what the you/human did before. And at least in my case, that works more smoothly than the illusion that was in place with the separate self-show before. Water by the River We are that Reality. When you understand this, you see that you are Nothing, and being Nothing, you are Everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche