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There's no such thing as depression. It is a concept in your egoic sense of self. Submit to the nothingness. What is wrong with just Being? No wants, no desires, no feelings. Just Be. You are wanting something that is an illusion. Stop the wanting.

While you do not submit to nothingness, you are chasing an illusion. Socialising is an illusion that leads to suffering. Just Be.

Is it illusory bliss and amazement of nothingness?

Enjoy. A Loaf holds many grains of corn And many myriad drops the Sea: So is God's Oneness Multitude And that great Multitude are we. The All proceedeth from the One, And into One must All regress: If otherwise, the All remains Asunder-riven manyness. God is an utter Nothingness, Beyond the touch of Time and Place: The more thou graspest after Him, The more he fleeth thy embrace.

Yeah, in a sense I think so. When you surrender to being you do also discover what the lens of No Ego points to. But that's a very specific case. In most cases Meditation and Self-Inquiry function very differently. I still Meditate but I don't really do Self-Inquiry anymore. Self-Inquiry became moot for me a while ago. When you discover "being nothingness" you don't really need to cling to the question 'what am I?' anymore. And also 'what am I?' is an unnecessarily Egoic question because it's designed to point an Ego to No Ego. You don't ask 'what am I?' after discovering being. It's the Ego seeker that asks 'what am I?'

This is a great question. Kudos for thinking of it. Being is not a knowing or a doing. No Ego, or as Adyashanti approximates it as "resting as Awareness", is a being. Being is a surrender to nothingness. This is No Ego which you might discover when you meditate.

@Jack River Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I’m probably jumping ahead, but I think this goes into desire, want vs need, objective vs subjective, and even infinite intelligence vs self/brain desires, and if I’m not mistaken we don’t see that the same. I’m not assuming, so correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve expressed desire is of the ego, or (small s) self. But a decent case could be made that when desires of the self are met, experienced, known, and then naturally transcended, a foundation within is built, which enables one to fulfill desire of deeper unification through helping others. So a small decision, and wether it is understood / accepted / viewed as a want or need, is a piece of a bigger thing. And perhaps the fashion in which one goes about helping others is impacted by the desire path, or the nondesire path. I think this is also true for many occasions of sacrifice of one’s self desires, on a path of discovery of the greater desire. In the same sense, in the biggest picture, I would say Nothingness is without desire, so desire must be of the individual. But at the same time, a case could be made that nothingness has desire, because it is you and I, doing whatever we’re doing. So perhaps a notion of unconditional desire arises...? (Sorry, I believe I strayed quite a bit from the original convo. Not to mention, hacked yet another thread.) ? @EvilAngel (sorry)

what if emptiness - empty of fullness, absolute emptiness - empty of the word emptiness, making it totally empty of anything , as in does not exsist nothingness- nothing if something absolute nothingness- did not exsist in the first place, was not even there, but is there as something. void - an area with nothing inside except itself absolute void - does not exsist inside void doesn't exsist - exsistance from non exsistance absolute non exsistance - does not exsist at all none of these words can actual encapsulate what it means to be itself non exsistance because of their counter parts, what if what was actual was that: none of it exist, i don't mean one second was there and next minute does not, i mean the most rawest nihilistic way that you can put non exsistance, without the use of time, space, location, form, colour, isness , wasness, thereness, sexyness, literally without anythingness. see i don't mean draw a concept in your minds eye about what it is because its simple the very thing doesn't exsist. lets do practical in actuality pick up a can of your favourite drink (can even be water) , look at it as if it doesn't exsist in front of your vision right now trick: you have to image yourself that you don't exsist aswell so the perceiver subject/ object vanishes but this is not the point lol... everything comes form the thing that does not exsist at all (nothingness) but you can't imagine nothingness its always dualistic so what is non exsistance - the being in everything the emptiness itself! that emptiness creates form so i mean lol the very thing you hear. see , smell , everything literally is just the formless as the buddist say emptiness is form and form is emptiness btw i'm not actually contemplating, i'm just sharing my results lol!

I say this with my very isness, with my very I am, with my very existence and being: I am God and there is none existent but I. The only Truth and Reality is My Being/Existence. I am the creator, the created, the manifested, infinity, void, nothingness, devil, ego, universe, consciousness, awareness, existence, being - I am all of that. I Alone am. You think your life matters? You think you matter? You think your psychedelic experiences matters? What does it matter if you don't know yourself? Nothing. Take this however you want. The clock is ticking.

Get a glimpse of nonduality, suddenly we think we are enlightened, or think we know the truth, but in reality we dont, we just have egoic impressions of it, ultimately no one really knows, they only know the path, they may use perceptual concepts of allness, or nothingness, but ultimately if you "experience nonduality" you are lying to yourself in my opinion. the buddha also mentioned that all these are still perceptual realities from our egos, no matter how mystical or "nonexistent" your experience may be, until your actual system is cleared of its fear mechanisms which build the ego, and the concepts that comfort or should i say numb your issues which you are not reflecting, until your system is cleared of mechanisms which make your experience dual, you arent in enlightenment at all, you just got an energetic opening/glimpse. . look at any dude here who uses realizations as egoic masturbation, anyone who dealt with self esteem issues and such can see through the wowness and power trip of these types of experiences and this can be subtle perceptions in the subconcious aswell. because the people who grew out of it they know it ultimately stems from insecurities not yet dealt with, just being real. but as you go through more of life, you get triggered of your issues, and you grow, you shed, and you let go, and each egoic paradigm thats broken down, more and more depth of reality is realized, because you're going through a process of reflection and understanding, being more and more inclusive (love, word can have baggage though) and open to reality, yet also unclinged and indifferent, not numbed. my point being, forget about nondual experiences, use the experiences as guides for your path, but even that attachment to those guides will be dropped too at a certain point. Leo is fully right when he says that this is a process, no doubt about it.

@Charlotte if I may say something here... Goes in this pattern...no-self (nothingness) --> everythingness --> transformation (Shinzen Young called this part: Riding the Ox Backwards) --> love (realm) --> ego When it comes, you'll know. Until then, I would just continue working on something worthwhile to give to this world, such as a deep life purpose. Everything is interconnected and counts. Anything worth doing is like a meditation.

@DarjeelingTea This topic keeps coming up here from time to time. It's a good topic, btw, and a very hard one to answer. Thanks for bringing it up. Remember this quote because it does cause radical open-mindedness: Two things to consider because it's been discussed many times and on Leo's videos. #1. 5meo can cause the experience of the no-self (nothingness) if done properly. This is the first argument. Work with mushrooms and other lighter psychedelics and work your way up to stronger doses before experimenting with 5meo. #2. Those who have not been the no-self (nothingness) will not understand what's it like to become the no-self without the psychedelics.

There is one thing I noticed with actualized.org, more specifically, how people interpret this content. I wouldn't call it a trap, but it misleads some people. It especially applies to younger folks, and I've certainly fallen into that myself. People hear Leo talking about Spirituality, Enlightenment, Nothingness and the Void almost every week. It paints a very sharp image and creates a powerful vision for aspiring actualizers. It really makes you get on board with all this cool Spiritual stuff and forget about everything else. You have ideas and fantasies of increasing consciousness, being Enlightened, becoming a Spiritual teacher, a life coach etc. Everything else in your life fades to the background. All you do is talk, read and discuss spirituality. This stuff is great. But we have to understand that Leo is coming at it from a different position than some of us. He started dabbling with spirituality when he already built his life and developed himself top of the pyramid. We can't just leapfrog financial success, relationships, self-esteem, work ethic, education and most importantly life purpose. In an extreme case, you can become a monk and renounce typical way of life. Yet for most people, the lower level needs have to be satisfied first. I'm not saying stop doing spiritual practices until you are 30-35. Yoga, meditation, and psychedelics can and should be used throughout life. I'm saying to not be obsessed over Enlightenment work and go out there to practically achieve something. Image how deep your spiritual pursuits can be, when your psyche is matured, your health is excellent, you have an abundance of wealth and all your desires and needs are met. It makes a world of a difference. I would even argue that it is almost impossible to achieve higher states of consciousness, without first putting the work into mastering traditional personal development (monks might be an exception). The strive for spiritual ideals early on can leave us bitter. You hear and experience all these cool states, but when you come back, your life is still crappy. This doesn't apply to everyone of course.

@Preetom yeah but i can't seem to maintain the presence of void, pure awareness, nothingness @Nahm it really is amazing at having one reference point, one moment where it reveals itself to you and your like i have it, and i want it again, how do i get this. its definately because it reveals itself to you, in my opinion. gotta keep trying until you get a breakthrough @Joseph Maynor you in this context is third person referring to me, or us or we, all of us. ahh man when i tried to meditate again. that question completely blocked my path, as if it were stopping me from the thing revealing itself to me because i'm trying to conceptualise this is what it is and this is what it isn''t, instead of just it being what it is completely

Yeah..maybe memory is coming in and thingifyjng that nothingness. I found that as these “intervals” extended for longer and longer it was because there was less still subtle registration taking place. This also relates to the absence of spatial awareness.

The Desire for Absence I have always felt that there is such a thin line between what is here and what is not. All of this ‘stuff’ is only pretending to be real and solid. In fact none of it has any real substance. Even this person that I am supposed to be, when I look to find myself, I don’t find anyone or anything. It is all very surreal. I am here, and yet I am not. I feel, see, hear, experience and seem to fully participate in living as a person in this life, and yet nothing is happening at all. Time seems to tick, and I seem to be getting older and closer to the ultimate disappearance that is death, and yet death is here all the time - beyond time. The mind deals in time and space, negotiating between me and the rest of the world. But beyond all of that, there is no need for any negotiation, because there is no time or space. I love to see it like Death is only pretending to be alive. Nothing is only playing at being something. And in this playing at being something or someone, there is always the pull to disappear into the nothing. The absence calls out from beyond all the ‘stuff’, constantly stating the only true reality. It is the mystery of life, and we long to fall into that mystery and disappear. But at the same time, all that seems to be here is the play of this and that, you and me. We all have some sense of that nothingness. It underlies everything that we do or feel. Mostly we are struggling to avoid being swallowed up into the void. Without all of that effort to prove our importance and worth as a person, we are terrified to fall into that emptiness. We long for it, and at the same time, run from it. The push/pull of life and death is the great paradox of reality. Living in the world as someone, sometimes has felt such an effort. Being the nothing that I am, there is no effort required. There is no problem, no discomfort, no issues, no drama. But being someone, it can seem as if I have to carry the world on my shoulders. I am supposed to know the rules of this society. I am supposed to have a purpose and a goal. I am supposed to know how to live, and even how to die. I have always felt that push/pull of longing for the total loss of control, and absolute surrender and peace of death, and then also the everyday reality of living as this person. Sometimes I longed to lose myself totally, and not have to live this life of being someone. It seemed to be such a burden to have to carry. I longed for it all to just stop. It was too much to handle. It was too much to deal with. I became very depressed and even suicidal, because I felt I couldn’t deal with it all. I was trying so hard to do it. In order to be someone, I was desperately struggling against the nothingness. Trying to push myself into the world. Trying to hold it all together. After a while I discovered that I couldn’t win this struggle. I had to let go and drown. When I let go of control and fall into the emptiness that is always here right now, it is so much easier. There is no conflict between what is, and what isn’t. It is only the mind that wants to land in one side or the other. It is in fact a paradox of both. I don’t need to even understand it. All that is happening, is simultaneously not happening. Consciously acknowledging that, brings peace. Death is already here. The absence that I long for is already here, and at the same time life seems to go on being lived. I am not in control of any of it. I don’t need to do any of it. In fact, it, is doing me. Article written for the Dutch magazine Inzicht.

@QandC I'm on a similar stage as you are. Letting go and surrendering even the surrenderer seems to be a powerful tool that goes beyond anything. However, even after a massive 'letting go', I couldn't survive like that for even a full day. Doesn't your ego creep up again, panicking "if it's all there is" and "what now"? If not, good. But mine couldn't cope with such nothingness and emptiness after having given so much attention to its suffering throughout my whole life. "dissolve, diffuse, surrender". It seems to me you're doing it right, and I'm trying to do the same. Not even "do", more like "un-do". Any video of Mooji could help you witht he doubts of fear, imho. For example this, and many others

Hey, I just want to know whether or not it is possible to have an awakening experience of nothingness or no-self without a serious spiritual practice or psychedelics. I can't have practice because of some environmental reasons (which I'm actively working on to fix) I can't get my hands on psychedelics either. For this, I have to travel, which I can't afford yet (I'm also actively working on to fix this) I know that fastest way to have a glimpse is psychedelics, but given the condition I find myself in, I'll have to wait for a couple of years (or maybe less) to be able to get them. So, that leaves me with a very limited list of options I guess. As far as I understand, the best way for me is 10-day solo meditation retreat. Can you tell me what can I do other than that? The reason why I am asking all of this is that I was planning my life couple of years ago such that I thought I would be able to experience my true nature at least once, in 2-3 years. Then something unexpected happened and I've found myself not capable of even doing a meditation. I just kept reading books and filling myself with all the theory. Now I'm working on the aspects of my life which will enable me to get back on track and pursue the Truth more actively. But that will probably require some time, at least a year or more. I just can't wait anymore. Sometimes all I can think of is these stuff, all the ways that my egoic behavior damages me, and all the unconsciousness that goes into my life... I need to see what is this about, see how deluded I am. I want to know how it feels to look at the world and don't make a distinction of me vs not-me, even for a couple of seconds. I even thought of learning Lucid Dreaming in order to have a glimpse of nonduality at least in my dream Is that possible? So, what can I do?

I like to clarify my intentions in the beginning phases of my meditation practice each day. Most of the time, my intention is just to be mindful and to know my reality exactly as it is in this moment. If I'm being honest though, I'd really like to experience this nothingness that everyone on this forum raves about. The no-mind, the dissolution of the ego, the radical shift in perspective. All that. Is that a negative thing? Will grasping for the mind fuck stifle my practice and actually keep me from getting mind fucked?

No, I didn't practice Vipassana, but it is referred to in every Buddhist stream. http://www.buddhismandaustralia.com/ba/index.php/The_Cessation_of_Consciousness_in_Vipassanā_Meditation_by_Ven._Bhikkhuni_Anula_Devi From the text: "And the Buddha also explained the emergence of consciousness as a natural causal process denying that consciousness would emerge in the absence of the necessary conditions." The same is meant here with what I referred to: Although I penetrated the nature of reality through consciousness, I had not let consciousness go yet. It is tricky, because you need consciousness to penetrate through reality, but after that you also need to let consciousness go. So, consiousness has no form. It can manifest itself, but it is not really there to be perceived, it is empty in itself. But you can't say it is without form, it doesn't mean it is not there. It is just formless, the conditions are not so that it can manifest itself. It is what Thich Nhat Hanh refers to in the video, with the flame, it has no form, but it also is not without form. It only needs conditions to manifest. Hence, dependent arising. If you plant a seed from a flower, you already know the flower is there, it however has not manifested itself yet, because the conditions to manifest itself have not met yet. The flower needs to grow first to form, before that, it is formless. So you can plant the seed and let the flower manifest, or you do not plant the seed and let the flower be formless. It doesn't matter, because the flower is nothing, it is empty but full of everything. You can't define it, because it needs everything. Just like consciousness is nothing, you can't define it, because it needs everything.. An instruction in the text from the link; "we should observe firstly the arising of the object and secondly the vanishing of it, then thirdly both appearing and disappearing of that object." This means; first the identification of object arising through subject-object distinction, then venture into nothingness (no object), then venture into nothing is (nothing is formed) and nothing is not (nothing is formless). So, you go from form to formless, to no-form and no-formless. You arrive into no-form and no-formless by letting the formless go, which is consciousness. You are dissolved. Nothing is and nothing is not.

I don't refer to the subject-object consciousness here, that is form consciousness. Consciousness is also formless; experienced beyond the subject-object distinction. However, this formless consciousness also does not exist. When there is consciousness, there is rebirth of consciousness. It's only a form (subject-object) and formless (beyond subject-object distinction, unable to lable) mental fabrication. First you become conscious of nothing is, or nothingness, (nothing is formed, no self, no formation of subject-object consciousness) and then you dissolve, because nothing is not (nothing is formless). So there is no consciousness, not in form nor formless, and therefore no rebirth. Nothing is and nothing is not.

@Emanyalpsid You do realise there are multiple stages of enlightenment in Buddhism. Arhatship or nirvana is complete eradication of all conditionings. Nothingness is realized way before arhatship.

I'm curious to hear people's opinion on whether psychedelics can be used to access fundamental truths about Reality. Obviously we know Leo is of the opinion that Reality = Absolute Infinity (or Absolute Nothingness) and one can become directly conscious of this by taking 5 MEO DMT. But I'm curious to hear the public opinion. Personally, I have gotten a sense of something I could call Infinity on other psychoactives, namely 2c-b, mdma, mda, mushrooms. There was something revealed in those experiences that felt more true than my ordinary waking reality. Also, how would one respond to someone who would argue that there is no way to prove this "Truth" objectively because it only comes about through a personal subjective experience.

@Aakash The texts in their entirety are too long to read. Too boring due to the language used, and most people will not understand why the nuance in them is relevant. They aren’t a good place to start. The core of the traditions. Especially Buddhism is different, however. They are great places to start. In other words the universally agreed teachings it aspouses. The 4 noble truths, the dhamma and so on. Then start with the more popular suttas, and instead of understanding see if anything resonates with you. In Buddhism and Jainism. The importance isn’t placed on any realisation. Non dual. Nothingness and etc. The total eradication of the fetters. Cravings, impurities in mind are the goal. This is one major difference between the traditions started by those who have gone all the way and random dudes in low states of realisation. ”emptiness is form and form is emptiness.” Yet so many in modern times neglect the world. Try to pretend it doesn’t exist. Disvalue it. Even if they say they aren’t. They look away. Avert their eyes from their humanity, and focus solely on “that which is prior” to blah blah blah. @Serotoninluv like this guy. What is your point? It has been revealed to me for a number of years, and honestly I couldn’t give a shit because reality is not one dimensional. If you avert your eyes to parts you dislike and call them illusion. You are just a child lost in fantasy.

The main thing that keeps me on the spiritual path are these questions: What am I gonna be when I won't have a body? How am I gonna live when I won't have a brain to think with? These are questions related to my mortality. And I don't even have to believe in an afterlife for these questions to be effective. Because if there's nothing after death then from the perspective of the nothingness it doesn't even matter that I "wasted" my whole life with meditating on these questions.