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Yeah, this is the whole trick with self-inquiry: the mind refuses to stay with the emptiness because it needs some image to grasp. Everything you wrote is the noise of the mind. Look past all that towards the emptiness and just try to observe it without worry or mind noise. This takes lots of practice, focus, and patience. Yes, this is Neti Neti. The emptiness cannot be found in the conventional sense of finding a physical object. Something radically new must click. What are you beneath all that mind noise and doubt? What is observing the noise? Stay on that with steadiness. Try to keep the mind very calm. You want to hit a silent observer state. Observe observation itself. You are observation itself. But what is observation?? Don't think the answer -- observe! You will definitely fall into the trap of intellectualizing emptiness over and over again thousands of times before you learn not to do that. Remember this is like a live scientific experiment. You are working in the labrabory of your own mind.

@FoxFoxFox I first heard it from Rupert Spira. See if it resonates with you or not. Atma-Vichara or Self-inquiry really has 2 faces which complement one another. 1) the 1st part is actually the philosophical and experiential inquiry and seeing what you are not (neti neti). In this step, you see that everything you are aware of cannot be you. Thus you come to the conclusion that you wrote where you don't identify with anything but yet still 'I AM' is undoubtedly present. This is what Rupert calls establishing the Presence of dis-identified, formless Awareness. We all have glimpses of it through self-inquiry. In the modern advaita scene, this is what is regarded as Enlightenment but actual Advaita Vedanta doesn't acknowledge that. There is another step to go. 2) the 2nd step is where your understanding permeates completely with the 'Nature' of this Awareness. At this step Atma-vichara becomes self-abidance, not repeated questioning and dis-identifying as you've already done that. Now you can just go to that dis-identified Awareness in less than a second. This step involves just this: As this abidance deepens continuously, the inherent nature of Awareness like unlocatedness, undisturbed, having no lack, fulfilled in itself, utterly one with experience aka love etc. are recognized and these qualities permeate the entirety of your experience, leaving no possibility of doubts whatsoever. This right here, the exploration and abidance in the nature of Awareness is regarded as Enlightenment according to the scriptures. You are not intellectually brainwashing yourself or trying to find the promised bliss. It all results spontaneously from being with this dis-identified 'I AM' knowledge. So as you can see, anyone can question openmindedly and have a glimpse of the 1st step. But that's not Enlightenment yet. It's the abidance and marinating on this knowing that results in Enlightenment. And that usually takes time (1-3 years depending on how serious and how constantly you're doing it without re-identifying with new objects)

Yeah,the "seeing what I'm not" way is negation or neti-neti(not this,not that). I spent close to a year doing Kriya yoga and mantra meditation before taking on inquiry. Those practices cultivated the inner silence to where the self inquiry,direct path way could be done with minimal friction. Vedanta or self inquiry is notorious for being one of the more difficult ways because it uses only the mind/intellect to get liberation. Even Ramana stated "Nevertheless, Self-Enquiry is not for the faint hearted—it is for those who truly wish to go all the way home: “It is intended only for ripe souls,and Bhagavan conceded that some devotees need to adopt less direct methods more suited to their spiritual development."

You are that which is not... Neti Neti 1. "Who Am I? I am not; the five cognitive sense organs, i.e., the senses of hearing, touch, sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective objects, i.e., sound, touch, color, taste, and odor, I am not; the five conative sense organs, i.e., the organs of speech, locomotion, grasping, excretion, and procreation, which have as their respective functions speaking, moving, grasping, excreting, and enjoying, I am not; the five vital airs, prāṇa, etc., which perform respectively the five functions of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind which thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with the residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no objects and no functions, I am not. 2. If I am none of these, then who am I? After negating all of the above-mentioned as “not this, not this,” that Awareness which alone remains—that I am."

Thanks for the link! I'll definitely check it out. I've seen DH mentioned a few times in this forum but didn't really looked into his method. For me, I'm really grateful towards Rupert Spira for bringing all this home at an intellectual level very satisfactorily. So I kind of exhausted my superficial search for more content and now just get back to the most potent resources(books, videos etc) that feel right for me over and over again. It's basically self-inquiry, do or die for me now haha.. And about mystical experiences, 'something' does stick. It's not just the fireworks that pass away. I feel the wisdom-discrimination(neti neti) growing as time passes. All the best with your journey. Just keep your 'head' up. Remember, it usually hits when you least expect it And I'll reply back once I finish that video

I found a Buddha quote(hope it's his ), which I think is so critical for serious open minded inquiry, how the ruthless observation and dis-identification should go on. ''The very idea of existence implies a dwelling place, therefore its clinging. Both 'is' and 'is not' are a dualism that has no room in true mind (subtle consciousness, the mind without beginning) " - The Buddha It is basically the same instruction of how true neti neti(self-inquiry) should go on(which is an vedanta technique). It's just that hindus form a metaphysical absolute background called Brahman(or pure existence) for the purpose of teaching but Buddhists don't make such an assumption. Yes Brahman is an assumption, the same way 'Nirvana' is also an assumption. But they must inevitably reach to the same placeless place.

Brahman is Existence itself. So there can be no whole or part or absolute or relative when it comes to Brahman. That's why it is incommunicable and unbelievable. Anyone pushing you to believe what Brahman actually IS, is trying to sell his/her pitch to you. You can never 'know' what Brahman is, because you are it! But you can intellectually know what Brahman is not (neti neti). That's just another pointer in the path and ultimately a misconception. There is not a thing called Atman to be dissolved into a 2nd thing called Brahman. Through Enlightenment, both ignorance and enlightenment are recognized as non-existent. It was a helpful pointer on the path, but was never the Truth.

@Girzo what would you recommend from your experience? @Leo Gura I will try to buy your booklist soon as i can . I am 19 but very serious about this doing your neti neti and self inquiry for 2 - 3 hours every day but its frustrating i am rly in state of not knowing only awareness is present so i am not sure am i doing it right. Thank you for your free videos

Good point. I try to be mindful if there is attachment and identification to experiences and beliefs. If so, can I let go of my identication with the experience? I’d sprinkle a little neti neti dust on it.

@winterknight You gave me best explanation on self inquiry and it is the only effective method for me Thank you!! Who am I alone is confusing your way is simplistic and i am able to rest as awareness What about sri nisargadatta’s only focusing on I Am or Neti Neti etc is it less useful?

@Shin I read in a book (probably "Neti-Neti Meditation") 3 stages: 1. Duality 2. Non-Duality 3. Nothingness

I ask questions like who am i or Rupert Spira’s Am i Aware , Neti neti method rly open minded and looking directly not logically. Then when there is nothing more to ask i stay in that noticing , awareness but confused dont know what to do next , can someone give me more guidlines or something tnx . “Doing” do nothing meditation and witnessing present moment without judgement gives m peace but self inquiry only frustation

Actually both affirmation and negation techniques have it's place in Vedic tradition. The seeker would affirm ''I am HE'' or ''I am BRAHMAN'' as a mantra million times a day in meditation. The seeker would do neti neti (negation); which is mentally negating everything in present experience that is not me. Ramana Maharshi criticized both these techniques as not being direct enough. He said when you ask ''Who am I?'', you are not after an affirmation or answer like ''I am Brahman'' nor you just mentally label things as ''not me not me''. ''Who am I?'' is a question that invites you to take a silent journey deeper and deeper into your present experience...this is what Ramana Maharshi declared as the most direct path. With that being said, neti neti is a very helpful technique that refines intellect to discriminate between the Seer and the seen. It builds a solid intellectual foundation and later helps a lot in self inquiry.

You've got it spot on my friend! The very purpose of doing neti neti is to refine the intellect more and more. Normally, a person is totally identified with the contents of his experience. At one point, this discrimination skill gets so sharp that clever thoughts like 'I want enlightnement' and intellect itself is seen as another subtle object. At this point, neti neti collapses as a mental labeling or intellectual categorizing. A holistic, pure, effortless Witnessing takes place. This is what J. Krishnamurti called choiceless Awareness. It was always there, now it shines and you know it first hand. Great that you've had this breakthrough

This has helped me quite a bit so far but right now I have to say "this happens in the intellect" does not have to be true any longer for me. And I think neti neti has a limitation in there, as long as the intellect is involved. Only when I let go of the intellect, of the desire to discriminate or do anything, could I go deeper. But it's also important to say that this feels like a progression. First discrimination was crucial, now I see even it standing in the way. Same with the general idea of "I want to become enlightened" - very important in the beginning but huge obstacle later on. At least for me.

@Jack River I would also say, perhaps you should try neti-neti method yourself? To get your other questions answered. I'm just not sure what you're asking really.

@Jack River It's done through refined intellect or clear seeing without any judgement. Anything that is perceivable or conceivable is seen as unreal because they are all subject to change. If this process is consciously kept up, all 'objects' of Consciousness are seen as unreal and only Pure Consciousness remains. The self ceases to identify itself with any object ever again and shines as THE SELF. It was always THE SELF...it only appeared as the ego self due to ignorant identification. When that spell of ignorance is broken, only the Absolute is... That's when neti neti spontaneously comes to its end and what is prevails as it always is.

Jack river- "Neti neti, meaning, "Not this, not this", is the method of Vedic analysis of negation. It is a keynote of Vedic inquiry. With its aid the Jnani negates identification with all things of this world which is not the Atman, in this way he negates the Anatman. Through this gradual process he negates the mind and transcends all worldly experiences that are negated till nothing remains but the Self. He attains union with the Absolute by denying the body, name, form, intellect, senses and all limiting adjuncts and discovers what remains, the true "I" alone." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

@Anna1 how does that go again? Neti Neti ? What kind of questions do you ask?

@Jack River That's a different conversation. I didn't say anything about "who am i"? I was referring to neti-neti (not this, not that), which is "now" (present moment), not past.

@SoonHei Oh yes, I've tried it out lol. I do like it. I'm just wondering if it can both double as an emotional mastery and self-inquiry practice. I've never formally done any self-inquiry like neti neti or anything, so I couldn't really compare the two.

@Serotoninluv Well now I've actually experienced some real, tangible effects from my meditation I'm in it for the long haul. I was operating on faith before somewhat but I've been feeling high for two days straight now and my awareness is as sharp as a blade so I want more, more, give me MORE haha, na I know its not good to chase these states as firstly you can't rely on them and secondly they're a distraction on not the real deal, so I've read. Adyashanti warns against chasing feel-good states, seeing as your real, true state - the enlightened you, as you put it, is stateless. I think that's what he said anyway. The insights you mention, which come when your mind is empty...do you wait until after the meditation to contemplate them, or do you follow them when they occur? Or maybe they don't require any further contemplation. I'm just confused about how meditation, which is supposed to be about becoming 'thoughtless,' (unless you're doing neti neti or whatever) can be used for insights...

@Aquarius meditation meditation meditation. Trying to gain muscle by choosing to gain muscle is impossible...it's not the choice, the actual development of the muscle takes place when you walk into a gym and stay there for an hour, every day. Why would it be any different for the mind? Your mind is an infinitely more complex system, and your subconscious is in control the whole thing. Very little actual authority is given to what is known as "free will." Your subconscious controls your pain, digestion, blood circulation, the respiratory system, throwing up, sex drive, sex orientation etc etc etc. So don't fall for the idea that you can change something fundamental about yourself by "trying harder." I recommend one, or both of these methods. 1. The "neti neti" method that leo talks about. Which will dissolve the idea that you exist, and how can you be worried if there is no "i" to be worried? (I do this one) 2. Law of attraction. Check out the teaching behind law of attraction if you don't know it already. There's a lot of western commercialisation of this though, like "get rich quick" schemes. Try to get to the bones of it. How it actually works is, you have a vibrational energy (apparently), and this vibrational energy kind of governs the subconscious make-up of your situation. The only reason your in the situations your in, is because you've some how or another created it. An example of this is when someone is trying to make you angry, you can either feed into their trap and become angry...or completely rise above them, so much so you don't even reply. It requires your energy. So look into that. Manipulating these things once you know how they work, is actually super effective. U can change anything about yourself

Self identity creates separation, not words, even in the absence of words there can be a perceived separation in awareness from the self identity.... words are the result of this separation, not the impetus to it. The body spontaneously creates self identity which results eventually in words. Even if we clarify awareness of the perception of separation as long as we have the body, it generates the self identity in our consciousness so we can be aware of it but not necessarily distracted by it. Well, there isn't duality, that is just the mistaken impression of our mind from separation coming from our self identity but it doesn't really exist as duality even if the sense of self creates a perception of separation, The body spontaneously creates the sense of self which causes this perceived separation in our consciousness. There really is no such thing as inattention either, it is distraction so we still have attention but it directed to the body and it's sense of self with the perceived separation. See how that's a false duality? It's not like we either are attentive or have no attention as opposites but our attention is distracted from being on the unity and instead it's on the separation, At no point are we without attention/awareness, it's just focused elsewhere, it's distracted from the holistic presence of being. All that movement stuff you talk about are examples of what distracts of the separation from self identity. I try not to get too complicated in my own experience of the path because I have found that attempting to understand it can be a distraction as well and understanding it isn't a requirement for liberation, Well, multiple words at least, that is what I was suggesting. As long as we have a body and we are alive in that body we are on the path and yes it can be a distraction....it evolved to capture our attention so we behave in a way to keep it alive. Regardless of whether it's simple or complex we walk it and it can be a distraction from being present which is why I simplify mine own path, less to be distracted with. The body spontaneously creates the existential yearning that manifests as psychological craving, emotional desire, physical hunger and everything like that to keep the organism alive. As long as we have the body we will have the yearning in all it's forms. Yes, they can all serve as a distraction from simply being present, that's what the body does. The food doesn't come to our mouth, we have to go get it, hunger is a physical discontentment to motivate us to eat or we die. That last little bit is you getting distracted by the path, more specifically by the words again. I did say "realization" and you substituted 'seeking of finding' then tried to make a point about the words. Should I now tell you running around telling others 'not it, not it', neti neti is 'not it' and a distraction as well? Nah... that's 'not it' either, I don't want to be distracted by the path. Haha.

Neti Neti, even more then what your pointing to.