New War In Israel / Gaza

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

scholarship in Islamic history which made it a more reasoned religion and a thriving progressive one at its time, and plenty of interpretation (tafsir). 

That's interesting, I would like to know more about it, since it seems that the Koran, being written directly by God, does not allow interpretation, it is literal, but on the other hand mystics like Ibn Arabi are totally openess.

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

Even at the height of ISIS, from the UK for example which as a muslim population of 3 million, the max estimate for ISIS fighters who had gone was 1'500.  Thats 0.05% of muslims, that get major representation in the media as equivalent to the muslims living in the West.

Sure, but the important thing is not those who have gone to fight in a war, obviously very few people will go voluntarily to that, but how many sympathize with that cause.

[zazen]

32 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israelis put a lot of value on life, this has to do with trauma, the fact that they're a small nation but also their quality of life is great and the young people are often very talented with a lot of potential.

Some Israeli's don't put value on Palestinian life though. Even beside the Hamas attack which was horrific and Gaza, how can Israel explain the injustice in the West Bank?

 

You don't think Palestinian's in Gaza who have literally been born into hell and aren't allowed to even leave without getting sniped, get furious at the increasing settler activity that happened especially this year, which lead them in rage to retaliate the only way they can.

 

And the first thing these 'animals' see is exactly that what you mention, a quality of life, Israeli's partying and enjoying life right on their fence/border whilst their imprisoned in what used to be their land also. Imagine the humiliation and degradation that would make them feel. Im not justifying what they did, but analysing and explaining their state of mind. Too many people decontextualise an isolated event, act or behaviour. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by zazen

[Yousif]

39 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Of course there are many moderate Muslims, but it is a fact that the Muslim world is becoming radicalized, 10 years ago in Morocco there were less women with hoods than now. The normal Muslim, the average guy on the street, was more indifferent to religion and the repressive customs of Islam 25 years ago than today. I don't know what the cause is,

An interesting little story that might explain this, and I know this is off topic, about 9 years ago when I was a Muslim I wasn’t really religious and didn’t care much about it it was more about the culture than the actual practice and also I was in my teens back then, but as I started connecting the dots I saw so many contradictions within islam and whitin people that preach and practice it and when I tried to have a conversation with them they just look at me as if I was evil for questioning them and their authority, they just wanted people to blindly believe, they’ll tell you, “ you don’t have enough faith” so you try to have faith but it’s ungrounded unlike if you had a mystical experience and therefore your faith is just a belief, you just buy into a story and so you start studying other religions and you realize they have more stories just different ones and you start to wonder which one is the true faith? If any. Then you start looking into science and  slowly turn into an agnostic or an atheist. 
 

long story short, before you let something go, people usually hang on to it even tighter until it dissolves into nothing because in the end it was just a concept they bought into, an illusion mistaken for reality.

 

that explains to me why people such as muslims started to hang tighter to their faith and teachings stronger than before, that usually happens before you jump from one stage of the spiral to another.

[PurpleTree]

24 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

Certain schools and strains of Islam which are very simplistic in understanding became popular and promoted heavily across the muslims world - particularly Wahhabism through petrodollar wealth that landed upon the Saudi's.

 

 Oil was found in Saudi Arabia in the 1930s.

but it seems the islamic world wasn‘t really forward looking and regressing for much much longer than that. Hundreds of years

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Yousif said:

that explains to me why people such as muslims started to hang tighter to their faith and teachings stronger than before, that usually happens before you jump from one stage of the spiral to another.

Do you think it is an evolutionary process? What I see is that Islam really is like that, and that a true believer is someone who believes what the Koran says. internet has given a voice to true believers, and they are attracting more and more people.

You have spoken with believers and you have not been convinced, but weaker minds are seduced by the literalness of Islam, its sacredness. Islam exudes sacredness, its descriptions of paradise, its severe punishments, make simple people seduced. For example In the Koran it is said that in paradise you will have servants around you all the time serving you in golden cups. pure seduction

[Happy Lizard]

@Breakingthewall I see that you are communicating what you see is true, and you are correct in lots of what say, but I think you are observing correctly and placing judgment too quickly, which I can understand and don’t hold you too much for it.

My own opinion is that it shouldn’t be blamed solely on people, surely not confusing them for their religion too or characterizing them.
 

The foothold of progressive islam is very weak, due to lots of islamic scholars who push strongly against it, and has increased with the internet. 
Many muslims don’t like what Islam today is/has become. and yes, it’s an evolving thing. Any Muslim who falls in this trap of taking it as-is has trapped themselves, but is it really their fault or hundreds of know-it-all islam experts who keep guilt them and calling for an unchangeable islam? fundamentally islam is as any other religion -as all religions are somewhat psycho lol- but it’s a religion that exist in a geographical locations that insures hard survival, so it’s naturally not going to develop as fast as say Christianity.
For example Christianity forbids tattooing, no abstraction! yet how many people in Europe or the US of christians origins take that seriously? As societies develop religion develops too, and losses it’s strict hold and doctrine.

 

 

Assuming good faith in this conversation and wishing you well.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[lina]

I don't know if it's only me but a lot of the posts are missing in this thread..

 Was this also a result of misfired rocket by Hamas? 

[Danioover9000]

@lina

Just now, lina said:

I don't know if it's only me but a lot of the posts are missing in this thread..

 Was this also a result of misfired rocket by Hamas? 

   The reason why a lot of posts are missing is because of some data crash this site had, which resulted to 2 days loss of data. @Leo Gura made a thread explaining the issue in the personal development forum.

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Some Israeli's don't put value on Palestinian life though. Even beside the Hamas attack which was horrific and Gaza, how can Israel explain the injustice in the West Bank?

A big part of the "oppression" is simply security checks, Palestinians find those humiliating but they are necessary to curb terrorism. But it is a problem for sure.
 

1 hour ago, zazen said:

And the first thing these 'animals' see is exactly that what you mention, a quality of life, Israeli's partying and enjoying life right on their fence/border whilst their imprisoned in what used to be their land also. Imagine the humiliation and degradation that would make them feel. Im not justifying what they did, but analysing and explaining their state of mind. Too many people decontextualise an isolated event, act or behaviour. 

 
Those communities near the border were Zionist but mostly very liberal and non-religious. Ironically amongst the killed and captured are a good amount of peace activists. Viewing Zionism as a purely stage-blue form of nationalism is not exactly fair. The concept of Zionism and its history is actually way more nuanced than people realize.

(Zionism deserves a lot of admiration for saving Jewish people who would otherwise be EXTREMELY vulnerable in places like Iraq, Yemen and Algeria, also early Israelis could never know that Germany would transform into a highly humane peace-loving country).

Israel is a small country without many open spaces in the center, the festival was still substantially deep into Israel.

Further, I am not going to apologize for Israel because they build a high-quality society. Also, Arabs profit from that. A lot of Arabs are pacified precisely because they have a decent life in Israel with economic prospects they would never have in Arab countries. Also before the war 10,000's of Gazans worked in Israel and lived like "kings" in Gaza taking care of their massive extended families. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[lina]

@Danioover9000 Thank you for your reply  I wasn't aware

 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

A big part of the "oppression" is simply security checks, Palestinians find those humiliating but they are necessary to curb terrorism. But is a problem for sure.
 

 
Those communities near the border were Zionist but mostly very liberal and non-religious. Ironically amongst the killed and captured are a good amount of peace activists. Viewing Zionism as a purely stage-blue form of nationalism is not exactly fair. The concept of Zionism and its history is actually way more nuanced than people realize.

(Zionism deserves a lot of admiration for saving Jewish people who would otherwise be EXTREMELY vulnerable in places like Iraq and Algeria, also early Israelis could never know that Germany would transform into a highly humane peace-loving country).

 

Israel is a small country without many open spaces in the center, the festival was still substantially deep into Israel. I am not going to apologize for Israel because they build a high-quality society. Also, Arabs profit from that. A lot of Arabs are pacified precisely because they have a decent life in Israel with economic prospects they would never have in Arab countries. Also before the war 10,000's of Gazans worked in Israel and lived like "kings" in Gaza. 

   Would you agree that partying on the border of Gaza, without security, was a bad idea?

[tuckerwphotography]

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by tuckerwphotography

[Danioover9000]

   The derailment of this thread in a nutshell:

 

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000  Again it was still substantially deep into Israel, Kilometres away from the fence. Israel is small. Nobody expected such an attack possible. Israel underwent a stunningly painful military and intelligence blunder. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[Danioover9000]

@lina

3 minutes ago, lina said:

@Danioover9000 Thank you for your reply  I wasn't aware

 

   You're welcome! It's sad to lose 2 days worth of posts, I've had some good back and forth arguments in other threads and some here, but nevertheless we have to sally forth.

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 minute ago, Vrubel said:

@Danioover9000  Again it was still substantially deep into Israel, Kilometres away from the fence. Israel is small. Nobody expected such an attack possible. Israel underwent a stunningly painful military and intelligence blunder. 

   Really? I thought the Egyptian government sent intel over to Israel about this HAMAs attack? So why didn't Israel at least give light security to the party goers? And why even have a party that close to the border?

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's interesting, I would like to know more about it, since it seems that the Koran, being written directly by God, does not allow interpretation, it is literal, but on the other hand mystics like Ibn Arabi are totally openess.

Sure, but the important thing is not those who have gone to fight in a war, obviously very few people will go voluntarily to that, but how many sympathize with that cause.

This is a good short excerpt from a talk on Islamic law and interpretation regarding extremism.

Most muslims condemn the Islamists and say that what they are doing isn't true Islam - thats muslims I personally know in the UK, USA and across the middle east. I'm born and based in London and have friends from all backgrounds, mingled with them and travelled widely and come from a partial muslim back ground myself also just for context.

There are extremist elements for sure, but it isn't the majority. They prey on youth through the shisha cafe culture, discussions on Islam and charismatic speakers talk about the glory of Islam and distort things. 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by zazen

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000 Again massive intelligence blunder, I don't know if they properly received that warning.

[Yousif]

27 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Do you think it is an evolutionary process? What I see is that Islam really is like that, and that a true believer is someone who believes what the Koran says. internet has given a voice to true believers, and they are attracting more and more people.

You have spoken with believers and you have not been convinced, but weaker minds are seduced by the literalness of Islam, its sacredness. Islam exudes sacredness, its descriptions of paradise, its severe punishments, make simple people seduced. For example In the Koran it is said that in paradise you will have servants around you all the time serving you in golden cups. pure seduction

I’m gonna speak for myself and from where I’m at right now, after I had mystical experiences , I am able to see God/allah/ consciousness, whatever you want to call it in basically all religions, I see Mohammad like I see jesus, like I see moses, like I see the budda, but the problem is if you buy into one of them,  you have to believe they’re the only true one and that’s what most people that follow a particular religion feel and/or think, and from that all kinds of “evil” emerges, to me different religions are like different types of food or culture, no one food or culture is the chosen one, you can realize god through a religion or without a religion it doesn’t really matter, but why limit yourself to one when you can practice/experiment with all??

most believers of islam, christianity, judaism

believe they have the one true religion and that’s problematic, but once you see the similarities between them, a doubt will emerge which is “ what makes my religion more true than all the others” and if you’re true with yourself you’ll realize you only say your religion is true because you were born into it and everyone you speak to and know follow it, stage blue people’s faith will always fail because they do not have a mystical experience that can back up what they believe in , Mohammed did, but the majority of his followers today did not, probably % 95, same thing with jesus/moses and their followers, most religions turned into culture traditions and themes, and not about discovering that you’re god which is what Mohammed,jesus, moses etc tried to tell you.

 

[zazen]

33 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

 Oil was found in Saudi Arabia in the 1930s.

but it seems the islamic world wasn‘t really forward looking and regressing for much much longer than that. Hundreds of years

Yes, due to many factors. A big one was simply due to the empire collapsing just as with Rome - political instability and external forces like Crusades and Mongol invasions disrupting their scientific and culture centres. 

 

Also, a famous theologan Al-Ghazali critiqued aspects of greek philosophy and science which were being translated and interpreted through an  Islamic lens which aided in leading to them discounting interpretations of the Koran.

 

Islam contributed immensely to western enlightenment - Greek and Roman texts were preserved, translated and built upon and philosophers like Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd reintroduced Aristotoles work to the West.