New War In Israel / Gaza

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:43 PM, Lila9 said:

The history of Jews taught them that they must have their own country and it seems still relevant today because there is still lots of antisemitism in the world. Humanity scapegoated a few cultures and one of them is the Jewish culture.

The issue is that Israel has been taken away from the natives. Imagine that someone knocks on your door one day and tells you that their great grandfather lived in that building and that you've got to move out because it's now theirs. Then they call the police who agrees with them and makes you move. That would probably infuriate you.

So I wouldn't say it's accurate to call it the country of the Jewish people. I think that's a rather harmful narrative to begin with as the actions of Israel are truly gruesome. Calling it the country of the Jewish people has basically associated the actions of the IDF against the Palestinians, as the actions of the Jewish people, which is unfair towards pro-Palestinian/anti-Zionist Jews, whose voices are being drowned by the propaganda of Israel. It just creates more anti-Semitism. If you paint the actions of Israel as the actions of the Jewsih people, you're basically saying that the Jewish people are doing a genocide in the middle east. That's not a good look for the people who don't want to be associated with it. People are using this exact talking point to justify their hatred of Judaism. So ironically, this talking point which had been created by the Israeli government in an attempt to paint all anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, is now backfiring against all Jewish people, even those that have no relation to Israel.

[Jodistrict]

Here is an interesting article.  It claims that the leader of Hamas lives in a Jewish neighborhood in the United Kingdom.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/hamas-terror-chief-exposed-living-london-public-housing-project-funded-uk-taxpayers-report

 

This shows you that if you are stuck in any of the good guy/bad guy narratives, you are surely being played by the propagandists who construct these narratives to install opinions in you.  To find the real truth you have to bump up a metalevel, and trace the flow of money to find the footprints of the global financial controllers.   Is it even possible to find the truth? 

It’s interesting that younger Americans aren’t completely buying the pro Israel narratives like their parents.  This is likely do to the Internet which has broken the monopoly of the corporate media and allowing other point of view.  It makes sense the the government combined with big Tech are now trying to censor the Internet in an attempt to regain control of information.

https://www.reuters.com/world/fearful-grieving-gen-z-americans-clash-over-israel-conflict-2023-10-18/#:~:text=Younger Americans are much less,40 and up believe so.

 

[Nivsch]

28 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Well calling out to turn Gaza into Dresden looks like a solution to you? Because that is what Israeli elected politicans tend to support.

I am sure you and many Israelis are normal decent people but many are brainwashed and extremely racist.

 

No. I do believe that hamas must be eliminated if we want to even think about piece, but we have to do it according the rules of war, what I'm pretty sure Israel does the best it can.

@Jodistrict Israel these says is being supported more than ever, and this will improve more in the future. Lies tend to be exposed even if this is slow. I trust evolution. You dont know how much Israel was the black sheep at the beggining of 2000's. So i'm optimistic 🙂

About the controller of the world that you mention in the start this is a shallow conspiracy in my opinion.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But Israelis have deep insights that Jews abroad have not.

You can't know who's perspective is "better".

Israelis have been heavily propagandised by their own government. Bibi and nationalist factions have instilled fear into the population by otherising a population and putting them into conditions which bring forth terrorist elements. Fear is a bad adviser, bias a bad interpreter. 

[zazen]

Just now, Nivsch said:

No. I do believe that hamas must be eliminated if we want to even think about piece, but we have to do it according the rules of war, what Israel does.

@Jodistrict  Israel these says is supported more than ever and this will improve more in the future. Lies tend to be exposed even if this is slow. You dont know how much Israel was the black sheep in the beggining of 00's. So i'm optimistic 🙂

About the controller of the world that you mention in the start this is a shallow  conspiracy in my opinion.

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

Same can be said for the other side though

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@PurpleTree And so is America that by the way, the whites had no biblical or spiritual claim to USA, but none of you open any topics about it, you stole from Indians fair and square. Hey, then the entire world is colonizer. Big deal.

At that time they did those things, they also had slaves and they flogged them to make them work, and they sold their children at auctions, but today we have evolved and we avoid doing those things.

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

You are free to think whatever you want. It is easy to judge when you dont have to deal with the most cynical, manipulative, shamelss and brutal terror organization on earth.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Same can be said for the other side though

Yes, Hamas - not Palestinians. But why is it that Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Israel isn't a terrorist state. Why isn't there logical consistency.

 

What is your definition of terrorism and do you condemn it in any of its forms whether it be by an individual, organisation or at a state level?

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are free to think whatever you want. It is easy to judge when you dont have to deal with the most cynical, manipulative, shamelss and brutal terror organization on earth.

Yes exactly, it is easier to judge and discern a situation when emotions aren't as heavily involved. Emotion has its way of consuming people - there is not just a fog of war but the fog of emotion within a war that blinds you.

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yes, Hamas - not Palestinians. But why is it that Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Israel isn't a terrorist state. Why isn't there logical consistency.

 

What is your definition of terrorism and do you condemn it in any of its forms whether it be by an individual, organisation or at a state level?

Because obviously Israel isn't a terrorist state no matter how many times you try to jam this moral equivalence BS. 

Israel would love if Hamas isolated themselves and could fight a normal battle between militia. Hamas couldn't care less, their only objective is to kill civilians. If the situations were reversed and Hamas had Israel's firepower, how long would it take for Israel (Gaza) to be completely wiped off the map with all the inhabitants dead? Wouldn't take 75 years I can guarantee you that!

[zazen]

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel

 

What would you guys define as terrorism?

 

And to follow up from that, do you condemn that terrorism?

 

The global standard definition of terrorist is: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

 

If you are logically consistent, can you not see that terrorism can be committed by a individual, organisation or a state - it is only a matter of degree and scale, and that Israel commits terrorist acts. That of course doesn't call for the extermination of the actor as a whole (Israel or a organisation) but rather an extermination of the conditions that would terrorise a person or a country into terrorist actions.

 

You critique the behaviours and actions, not the being itself to be put out of existence. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yes exactly, it is easier to judge and discern a situation when emotions aren't as heavily involved. Emotion has its way of consuming people - there is not just a fog of war but the fog of emotion within a war that blinds you.

Without emotion you loose touch with reality. If you think you can judge well this situation from distance you are deluding yourself.

Much better approach is to study well the perspective of both sides including their videos, interviews, expressions, emotions, etc.

Emotions are intelligent signs created from your subconscious which is a super computer whereas your conscious logic can only see a sliver of reality every time (few elements a second vs thousands in the subconscious).

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel

 

What would you guys define as terrorism? 

Mostly religious nut jobs who are willing to die for their cause and kill as many civilians as possible from the other side 

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel

 

What would you guys define as terrorism?

 

And to follow up from that, do you condemn that terrorism?

 

If you are logically consistent, can you not see that terrorism can be committed by a individual, organisation or a state - it is only a matter of degree and scale.

I'm not going to play these semantic games with you. Of course nation states can commit terrorism. Every nation makes mistakes, has blind spots, go through eras with more reasonable and less reasonable leaderships. The difference is, those nations stand for much more than these isolated events. Hamas' mission statement is the extermination of Jews.

Even today these events don't fit the criteria for Israel. There have been 7,000 airstrikes and 7,000 stated Palestinian civilian casualties. That's 1 civilian per airstrike. If the objective is the indiscriminate murder of civilians (what Hamas does) - would the casualties not be much higher? With all of Israel's high tech capabilities you like to speak to, why would they be so terrible at acting out said terrorism? Perhaps it's because the objective is beyond that, unlike Hamas.

[Vrubel]

@zazen The nature of Hamas and the environment of Gaza makes this war exceptionally brutal.

Terrorism is blowing up a police station or a bus. What Hamas did goes way beyond that.

[Nivsch]

@zazen Terror: Exploiting a good thing from something/someone and using it against him. 

hamas do that.

And of course the deliberate harm to civilians.

Also only hamas.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Alex M]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

The global standard definition of terrorist is: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

You are being very short-sighted here if you think the Israelis are deliberately using violence toward civilians. Yes, there are many civilian casualties (it's war), but there could be 100-fold more if Israelis took the don't give a fuck about anyone approach here.

I get your point about the term terrorist. It's very much open to interpretation. You could say the UK/US/Russian/Chinese governments are all terrorists.

[Merkabah Star]

Footage shows Israeli tank blowing up a civilian-owned car in Gaza Strip

 

[zazen]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Without emotion you loose touch with reality. If you think you can judge well this situation from distance you are deluding yourself.

 

When highly emotional peoples reasoning is disputed they often perceive this as invalidating their emotions. The deprivation of their “right to feel” because their opinion and its hasty conclusion is often founded upon an instinct or feeling rather than a deduction or investigation. 

@hundreth

By law, people under occupation have the right to armed resistance which is denied to Palestinians but their are no rights for Israel to be doing things the way they are. Doesn't the Palestinian cause stand for much more than the isolated event of the Hamas attack?

Of course they can't kill that many because it would cause the escalation of other fronts opening up and world wide condemnation and their biggest backer (US) pulling away. The slow, steady inhumane treatment of Palestinians to weaken them in every way through control is crippling in a way that isn't as evident and flagrant as the current operation. 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by zazen