New War In Israel / Gaza

[StarStruck]

Good riddance. She ruined this topic with her compulsion for death.

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Good riddance. She ruined this topic with her compulsion for death.

I don't think so, and I also think this is not fair to speak out against a person who cannot respond right now.

I think @Lila9 shared many good and quite significant points from her own and from links too, and showed willingness to understand how the convesation should be in the improved form, but the emotions and the inertia got her to maybe add one link too much after the thread was already saturated from such things.

I try to understand in a general sense what Leo felt and I think I can to some degree, but specifically about @Lila9 I really think she want to learn and change the way of approaching the conversation if need to.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[zazen]

At times Lila would share interesting viewpoints, at others she would emote and vent out rather than discuss. No one need be mean about it, decorum is valued.

Bit of a mess for US/UK and Germany. They stated the case as baseless and meritless yet here we are - it has basis, merit and receipts. The orders were all in favour by all judges except Israel and some Uganda also. 1-2 vs 16.

Now comes the test in how its responded to and if the very legal system the West created post WW2 is upheld by the West themselves. Interesting to see if US stands defiant and vetoes further resolutions. Many ramifications going forward.

[Danioover9000]

@Lila9 @Nivsch

15 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I don't think so, and I also think this is not fair to speak out against a person who cannot respond right now.

I think @Lila9 shared many good and quite significant points from her own and from links too, and showed willingness to understand how the convesation should be in the improved form, but the emotions and the inertia got her to maybe add one link too much after the thread was already saturated from such things.

I try to understand in a general sense what Leo felt and I think I can to some degree, but specifically about @Lila9 I really think she want to learn and change the way of approaching the conversation if need to.

   But what about her posts recently, when some of it get's too personal and demonizing the pro Palestinian position? What about her past posts that were pretty inflammatory? If she, according to you, wants to learn and change approaches to conversation, and facilitate a good faith peaceful talks, why would she argue with so much ethos appealing and be heated when she could've toned it down and be objective?:

12 hours ago, Lila9 said:

When 3000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza celebrating the October 7 massacre.

People who supposed to be role models for the future generation.

https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/

 

12 hours ago, Lila9 said:

If you hang in a social media pro-Palestinian echo chamber, you wouldn't see this:

 

(link is removed for being too graphical)

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

At times Lila would share interesting viewpoints, at others she would emote and vent out rather than discuss. No one need be mean about it, decorum is valued.

Bit of a mess for US/UK and Germany. They stated the case as baseless and meritless yet here we are - it has basis, merit and receipts. The orders were all in favour by all judges except Israel and some Uganda also. 1-2 vs 16.

Now comes the test in how its responded to and if the very legal system the West created post WW2 is upheld by the West themselves. Interesting to see if US stands defiant and vetoes further resolutions. Many ramifications going forward.

   I agree. Regardless of how heated, we should show some decorum, not attack people too much, and remain objective when arguing from both sides. Felt like sometimes she would be very emotive and rant/vent, sometimes.

[Danioover9000]

@StarStruck

40 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Good riddance. She ruined this topic with her compulsion for death.

   Chill, @Lila9 has her moments of civility in this thread.

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura She got banned when standing up against 7/10 denial. Before that she even asked for objective principles. 

So get her back. 
 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

21 minutes ago, zazen said:

At times Lila would share interesting viewpoints, at others she would emote and vent out rather than discuss. No one need be mean about it, decorum is valued.

Bit of a mess for US/UK and Germany. They stated the case as baseless and meritless yet here we are - it has basis, merit and receipts. The orders were all in favour by all judges except Israel and some Uganda also. 1-2 vs 16.

Now comes the test in how its responded to and if the very legal system the West created post WW2 is upheld by the West themselves. Interesting to see if US stands defiant and vetoes further resolutions. Many ramifications going forward.

   What do you think is the probability of Israel disobeying the ICJ ruling, or not? If they're found guilty of genocidal intent? 

[StarStruck]

@Nivsch  do you think you are unbiased within this conflict?

[Danioover9000]

@StarStruck

2 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

@Nivsch  do you think you are unbiased within this conflict?

   He was actually for the most part reasonable, just had his moments of emotional venting/ranting with the other users posting some very inflammatory stuff and links. Nobody here's perfect with being objective, plus he's living in Israel so I'd give him leeway a bit.

[Nivsch]

22 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

@Nivsch  do you think you are unbiased within this conflict?

There is no such a thing.

I think truth is, in a sense at least, a war between biases that cannot be forcefully bypassed, but to be found graduately through the bias process.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

I think we are all biased on this topic. I am. Lila certainly was. I don’t think she should be banned tho, but it’s Leo’s forum and he gave everyone enough warnings and she basically did a middle finger, on purpose. So. Maybe it can be a one week ban? 

We all needed this ceasefire on this thread, we are all off our heads. So it’s a blessing. 

Take this time to look at ourselves. 

We all need to be more like zazen. Classy and  informative, with his bias in check.

He gets my vote as the new president of Israel. 😀

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

1 hour ago, Merkabah Star said:

I think we are all biased on this topic. I am. Lila certainly was. I don’t think she should be banned tho, but it’s Leo’s forum and he gave everyone enough warnings and she basically did a middle finger, on purpose. So. Maybe it can be a one week ban? 

We all needed this ceasefire on this thread, we are all off our heads. So it’s a blessing. 

Take this time to look at ourselves. 

We all need to be more like zazen. Classy and  informative, with his bias in check.

He gets my vote as the new president of Israel. 😀

   It's a one week temp ban from the political sub forum, so she can still post on other sub forums just not in the political sub forum.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Merkabah Star

It's a one week temp ban from the political sub forum, so she can still post on other sub forums just not in the political sub forum.

There is no time limit on the ban.

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

see you meant only to Gazan citizens that you think didn't want to target Israeli citizens

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

Edited January 26 by Karmadhi

[Heaven]

36 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

Finally we can agree. 
Some of the survivals mentioned they were kept within citizens houses. So obviously not only Hamas is guilty.
IDF is doing an extremely hard work to separate the guilty and the innocent. 
Unfortunately it’s not always perfect..

 

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Heaven said:

Finally we can agree. 
Some of the survivals mentioned they were kept within citizens houses. So obviously not only Hamas is guilty.
IDF is doing an extremely hard work to separate the guilty and the innocent. 
Unfortunately it’s not always perfect..

The difference in our opinion is that you assume IDF is trying their best not to kill civilians and they are doing this whole thing under some good will where they care a lot about Palestinian civilians.

I do not think they are doing this under good will nor do they care about civilians dying in Gaza.

So even though a part of Palestinians may be affiliated with Hamas, Israel often treats them all as affiliated, when conducting their operations. 

And that I do not find acceptable which is why I am so critical of them.

 

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Heaven said:

IDF is doing an extremely hard work to separate the guilty and the innocent. 
Unfortunately it’s not always perfect..

 

How do you know they are doing that? If they are why by their own estimation is over 70% the dead civilians and even worse if you look at US gov estimates? Why are they restricting medicine and food into Gaza which can’t be used to attack them? Why are they destroying farm land? Why did they publicly state the goal is to focus on damage? Why are they using unguided bombs and bombs 4x larger than what the US dropped in Afghanistan?

Edited January 27 by Raze

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no time limit on the ban.

   Oh really? In the past I was banned from the political sub forum for about 1 week, didn't know there's indefinite time. I stand corrected, never mind.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

To be clear, I think there is a part of Gazans that would kill Israeli civilians if they could. The issue is that we do not know how many of these Gazans are there so I do not support the idea putting them all in 1 basket and saying "all are guilty". Which is why I am against collective punishment.

But I do agree that some citizens in Gaza do help/support Hamas so there is a link between the two. Issue is that it is quite hard to know who it is exactly. Gaza being so dense does not help with that either.

So some are quite bloodthirsty and some are more moderate and would only kill if necessary.

Ideally the ones that took part in killings (non Hamas Gazans) should be prosecuted for murder/rape etc.

Hope it is more clear  

   Now this is much closer to the real issue, which is hatred and revenge cycles. Currently the situation is quite bad for Gazans/Palestinians due to IDF military bombings, displacement, and higher restrictions on aid, food, water, so forth. I do agree we shouldn't put them in '1 basket' or generalize the entire population as guilty of supporting HAMMAs, or guilty in total, and am too against blind collective punishment as that's an easy way to pass generational trauma down to children, and when they become adults if they don't sort out their traumas and hate/revenge they become next to perpetuate the hatred cycle, which is passed onto the next generation, and so on.

   Also agree that some do support HAMMAs way more than most, and due to density now and other factors it's very difficult for IDF to cleanly go after those who exactly support terror versus those trying to just survive as Palestinians. Yes, ideally IDF soldiers who actually raped/murdered a non combatant Palestinian should be charged, or hanged to show discipline onto IDF and to show HAMMAs strength, and keep in check and line the alt right in Israel to behave or get hanged. One time I'd be in favor for a death sentencing to implement severe martial law onto those who break them because it's so easy to seek revenge and to destroy more than what's the objective here. Plenty of dark events in military history shows this.