New War In Israel / Gaza

[lina]

On 1/28/2024 at 1:15 PM, zazen said:

At my current understanding I see the core dynamic (macro) of the situation as the following;

- Israel was a humanitarian project with good intent married to colonial project with colonial intent, in an era when de-colonisation was occurring and it was no longer accepted. What made this an exception was the horrifying atrocity of the Holocaust.

- They sought to establish a Jewish majority state in a Arab majority land and population. To achieve this would require demographic engineering using laws, guns and a strong narrative to justify it.

- What came from it was two  controlled territories recognised as occupied but that have been allowed to be ‘run’ by Palestinians in a limited way as a way to deflect from the fact that they are occupied even though they are (West Bank internally - Gaza externally). 

- To accomplish this would require mastering propaganda, weaponising past traumas such as the Holocaust and using labels such as anti-Semitic to nuke criticism. Intertwining with institutions of world powers and the worlds superpower to ensure constant support for it doesn’t hurt either.

- Naturally to uphold such a structure requires oppression and violence. Just as it is natural for blood to arise from a wound, resistance will arise against oppression as a consequence. Any resistance to oppression is then gaslighted as terrorism to dehumanise and discredit their cause. Narrative control.

- As far as isolated events (October 7th): cunning and powerful nations will focus on the latest event they feel transgressed against and leave out any wider context leading up to it, including any provocations on their part (Ukraine/Russia). They behave as if the word provocation doesn’t exist in the dictionary and then act like the event that erupted into war was simply done in a vacuum. 
 

- On an even wider geopolitical context: we are entering a multipolar a world where the West aren’t the unipolar hegemon. This is why more nations are emboldened to challenge them. It’s not that they aren’t a power, they just aren’t the only one - and they haven’t acclimated to the fact. When entities die out, they lash out in retaliation to their egos getting hurt, acting and flexing to remain top dog which is now only seen as a liability by the world. Whether they accept this fact or destabilise the world because they can’t remains to be seen - many steps can clearly be seen for the latter.

 Very good post, I think one thing that both sides might agree on is the fact that both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of exploitation for their trauma. So unhealed trauma is also a significant theme here.

Also, I understand I need to make an effort to be as objective as possible, and I think most of us agree that leaderships on both sides needs to be changed, but the problem is the current conflict is not a simple war between 2 nations, it's an unequal urgent situation in which one side is currently facing a serious risk of genocide and the other is living relatively in peace to some extent. Few months ago I think a neutral stance would have been an acceptable one, but right now the conflict has reached a point where it would be unrealistic and unfair to try to keep one because it simply doesn't align with the reality of the events that are currently taking place and happen to show Israel and USA in a negative light. 

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

So if you hate suffering so much or love Palestinians why not be constructive in your approach to peace. 

But don't you think the only constructive path to peace is only within Israelis hand, as they live in a democratic country and actually have the highest chance to change the situation?

Edited January 29, 2024 by lina

[zurew]

Regarding the claim 'careless targeting/killing of civilians' here is a tweet, that has a graph that calculates the relative risk rather than just stateing how many civilians were killed. It has multiple wars on it , so you can compare and see all the different relative risk values from different wars.

https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1751718541621928033/photo/1

The idea that the only variable (how many civillians were killed) is adequate enough to establish that Israel indiscriminately killing everyone is an incredibly bad logic and doesn't make much sense at all. The whole idea of discrimination is to measure how much you differentiate killings between militants and civilians - You need to compare militant death to civilian death (per capita).

As you can see on the tweet's graph, relative risk(RR) is calculated this way:  (Militants killed/Militant population) / (Civilians killed/Civilian population). 

Here is his explanation (timestamped) how relative risk is applied in real scenarios:

 

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Of course Israel is an apartheid state that shouldn't be allowed to continue in the same way it functions as of now.

I don't understand the apartheid accusation. Because first of all, Israeli Arabs get full individual as well as collective rights and freedom here.

About the Palestinians in the west bank, I agree that their area is partially sorverign and partially shared with the Israelis settlements, when IDF has to be in guard to secure those settlements and the west bank borders. Ok.

But when is the apartheid here?

And if one thinks there is apartheid, what is he/she expects? To not guard our borders?

Edited January 29, 2024 by Nivsch

[lina]

22 hours ago, zazen said:

Making it relevant to Israel’s situation, just see what actions have been taken and the timing of them. The night of South Africa’s hearing in ICJ (wasn’t broadcast in the West) they bombed Yemen to deflect attention and show who’s in charge. The day following ICJ’s ruling that a plausible case for Genocide exists they pull funding from UNRWA (UN aid for Palestinians) for similar reasons and which is now all over Western news rather than the case itself. This was done on allegation from Israel that 12 members (who have now been sacked and are under investigation) were involved in October 7th. UNRWA employs 30’000 people, so for 0.4% of criminal activity you shut down a agency that is most needed the day after the top world court has legitimised a genocide in process implying the need for such a agency. If 0.4% of the NHS (UK’s national health service) were criminal, does that justify pulling the plug on the whole thing? Or is it a retaliation.

The West are now in breach of the Geneva convention which was just emphasised a day earlier ( facilitation of aid ). The US leads the way and Europe follows like lapdogs. Just like Edward Snowden said: the US/EU facility criminal activity and enable Israel. This isn’t to be anti-West (I’m in the west, from it and pro it) but the establishment and devilry needs to be called out and addressed, and true Western values need to be lived (pro-humanity, tolerance , justice and old values we thought we evolved out of discarded: covert imperialism, colonialism and predatory capitalism)

It's very strange how this took place the day after the ICJ provisional measures. I think it's another blatant unfortunate manifestation of how western governments are regressing rapidly in terms of the values they have always called for including the importance of international law and human rights.

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

he or she

25 year old male  

[LSD-Rumi]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Unreal. Why do we even fund the UN? To rape Israelis? 

 

 

Good move

 

 

What?! you suspend the funding of an organization that is responsible  for the well being of millions of Palestinians refugees (most of them outside Hammas) over a dozen of bad employees? 

This represents the attitude that Israel followed since the start of this war. Defend ourselves, so we are justified to make genocides. Somr rouge UNRWA employees, so Suspend all their funding. Shame on western countries to fall for such silly arguments.

[Karmadhi]

10 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

What?! you suspend the funding of an organization that is responsible  for the well being of millions of Palestinians refugees (most of them outside Hammas) over a dozen of bad employees?

What is the proportion of verified personnel that aided Hamas? The size of that proportion determines whether it is justified or pure bs policy.

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Defend ourselves, so we are justified to make genocides

I think it has become quite clear at this point Israel is heavily abusing the Hamas attack to create smokescreen for further advance of their right wing Zionist agendas.

Wanting to annex Gaza and taking more of West Bank territory being part of it.

If Israel starts settling again in Gaza it would be a disaster for the region and destroy all hopes for peace (if there are any left).

[Nivsch]

@LSD-Rumi But this organization is responsible for deadly education that teaches killing and jihad, then it is best to look for another organizations or to create something new. Why to insist on a comfortable illness? It is better to suffer a short them uncomfortable if we want to heal the situation long term. This is how life works.

Edited January 29, 2024 by Nivsch

[LSD-Rumi]

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

What is the proportion of verified personnel that aided Hamas? The size of that proportion determines whether it is justified or pure bs policy.

Israel Accused 28 people of Engaging in the 7th October attack or celebrating it, this is out of the 28000 workers of UNRWA.

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I don't understand the apartheid accusation. Because first of all, Israeli Arabs get full individual as well as collective rights and freedom here.

From what I have seen Israeli Arabs live quite well and technically better than they would in other countries in the region (except maybe gulf countries). However, I am not sure whether they have full legal rights and political representation, I am talking about Israeli muslims here. But I am not informed a lot so just speculating here. I think you might know this better.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

About the Palestinians in the west bank, I agree that their area is partially sorverign and partially shared with the Israelis settlements, when IDF has to be in guard to secure those settlements and the west bank borders. Ok.

But when is the apartheid here?

And if one thinks there is apartheid, what is he/she expects? To not guard our borders?

Biggest issue I have seen here is that West Bank territories often are islands surrounded by a Israeli sea. It is a very problematic distribution of land because if I want to go from X to Y city in the West Bank I need to go through Israel which means going through military checkpoints, being questioned etc. It is quite frustrating. And I think illegal settlements are a reason why the sea exists in the first place. There was no sea before 1964, most of it comes from illegal stealing of land in the last 40 years or so. 

Also I have seen that Israelis do random house searches with no warrants at 12 on the evening. Imagine living like that. These policies I do not support. Israel should just have a normal border with West Bank and if they want to go in Israel, sure control them. Every country does. But thats it.

[LSD-Rumi]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@LSD-Rumi But this organization is responsible for deadly education that teaches killing and jihad, then it is best to look for another organizations or to create something new. Why to insist on a comfortable illness?

UNRWA is not responsible for teaching terrorism, Hammas is. UNRWA build schools, provide medications and vaccines. There are a lot of such facilities in my country, Jordan, non of them engage in teaching terrorism. 

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Israel Accused 28 people of Engaging in the 7th October attack or celebrating it, this is out of the 28000 workers of UNRWA.

Well if it is just 28 out of 28.000 it is a crazy small ratio, 1 in 1000.

You probably have more rapists and murderers in most countries than 1 in 1000. 

 

[zazen]

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@LSD-Rumi But this organization is responsible for deadly education, then it is best to lookfor another organizations or to create something new.

There are issues in large scale organisations. That doesn't mean its the sole intent of the organisation. If there are a few bad segments within it that are overlooked they should be investigated and persecuted. But that doesn't mean stopping the whole organisation itself which is a life line for Palestinians - especially the day after a plausible case for Genocide has been ruled.

UNRWA represents and symbolises the existence of refugees and the right of return for them - this is something Israel doesn't want to exist because it reminds the world of the existence of Israel's wrong actions that led to a refugee situation in Gaza in the first place. They also don't want UNRWA to keep alive the idea of a right to return which they facilitate and that Israel wouldn't want for Gazans to return when expelled from Gaza. Just yesterday there was a event about establishing settlements in Gaza with 12 out of 36 Knesset member present. Should we now defund the Knesset because of this violation? What about Epstein files and mossad connections, should we defund Mossad?

How many IDF have committed war crimes? What about all we have seen in the past 3 months with there arrogant tik tok videos and journalists. Should the whole IDF be defunded? Should the US de-fund Israel because it has committed war crimes, been accused of plausible genocide, does ethnic cleansing in West Bank, has someone who Israeli's themselves called a terrorist (Ben Gvir) in their cabinet? 

This has been done strategically by Israel - released the report and allegation the day of the hearing if it wasn't in their favour (which it wasn't) to distract from it and punish the UN. America is doing Israels dirty work , and now with escalations by the US army casualties in Syria/Jordan they are calling for war with Iran which will have ripple affects globally if allowed to happen. All because the US can't stop Israel from massacring and would rather pursue imperialism and war profits.

Edited January 29, 2024 by zazen

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

UNRWA is not responsible for teaching terrorism, Hammas is. UNRWA build schools, provide medications and vaccines. There are a lot of such facilities in my country, Jordan, non of them engage in teaching terrorism. 

So all the posts about unrwa connections to terror are wrong?

I see many like that.

But heard things (honestly I remember vagualy) in the last decade and before too.

Every time this name pops up with some direct or less direct connection to terror.

No chance this is only some bad apples.

Edited January 29, 2024 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

22 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@LSD-Rumi But this organization is responsible for deadly education that teaches killing and jihad, then it is best to look for another organizations or to create something new. Why to insist on a comfortable illness? It is better to suffer a short them uncomfortable if we want to heal the situation long term. This is how life works.

Whats a problem for you isn't necessary a problem for someone else. You may not like Hamas or UNRWA because you think they are terrorists but in their POV you are the terrorist and they are the right ones. Why would they surrender their position just to make you feel better? Would you surrender your position to make them feel better?

Edited January 29, 2024 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

25 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Israel Accused 28 people of Engaging in the 7th October attack or celebrating it, this is out of the 28000 workers of UNRWA.

Since when can someone tell us what we can and cannot celebrate? 

[Nivsch]

20 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Whats a problem for you isn't necessary a problem for someone else. You may not like Hamas or UNRWA because you think they are terrorists but in their POV you are the terrorist and they are the right ones. Why would they surrender their position just to make you feel better? Would you surrender your position to make them feel better?

You must be jocking.

The Allied are also nazis in the eyes of the nazis. The immune system is the virus in the eyes of the virus.

Choose a side based on your healthy common sense. You can't differentiate between health and illness with logic, you must be intuitive and connect with some higher common sense.

This "woke" radical relativism can bring nothing but hell.

Edited January 30, 2024 by Nivsch

[zazen]

@Nivsch Celebrating injustice is sick and wrong. I think what people mean when they celebrated was that they are celebrating the liberation of breaking free from being caged in by Israel - not the deaths and massacring that Hamas were doing that they were unaware of at the time. 

When wars are won, the winning side celebrate at victory, should they celebrate after so many deaths? Who knows, war is bad for all in general. Unnecessary death over diplomacy. Should Israeli's be celebrating the eradication of Gaza and the settlements expansion in it as the video below shows:

One is a celebration of liberation while the other is a celebration of legitimising ethnic cleansing, displacement and settlements.

From the same event:

Listen to her words. We won’t give the Arabs any food, they will leave, the world will take them. In other words, collective punishment. Shouldn’t this be defunded? This is the leader of the settlement movement, her name is Daniella Weiss.

Edited January 29, 2024 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Yes this is our far right wing. Represents less than 10% of our population.

Edited January 29, 2024 by Nivsch