New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas has said they will release all hostages if Israel agrees to stop all bombing.

No one can seriously believe that, the hostages are their greatest assets. Hamas is also not exactly known for its principles of human decency and commitment to honesty. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

@Maximilian  Both sides are being radicalised. Extremist strains of any religion or ideology divinely legitimise un-divine distortions of that religion or idea.

How is what is termed as an 'open air prison' supposed to get their shit together and develop when blockaded? 

Al Jazeera : ''The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.''

Those aware of spiral dynamics like us on this forum can easily fall into pigeon holing a entire population to certain developmental stages simply due to their leadership, and conflate development of different domains ie if their not developed politically (ideally democratic) that means they aren't developed morally (thus savages) and then we like to view ourselves in the West as morally superior. The ego can use integral philosophy and spiral dynamics to discriminate in self aggrandisement instead of discern the nuances of it. 

If Hamas are terrorists then they would surely terrorise their own population into submission thus rendering election invalid - so they don't represent their population in the truest sense. By that logic, democracy represents the people more closely in which case the USA doing its regime change around the world and dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima is representative of its population being morally corrupt and at a lower stage of development than what is advertised.

If a person with stage orange/green psychology was put under condition such as the Palestinians you don't think they could act out the same? The conditions can supplant and corrupt the state of conscience of that person, but we view them as 'less developed' in consciousness. 

In an earlier post Leo mentioned what makes them (Hamas) savage and barbaric is not what they do or how many they kill (quantity) but how they kill (quality).

Beasts eat, man dines - beasts copulate, man makes love , same act but imbued with a conscience quality separates man from animal. These acts don't however fall under the moral sphere as heavily as killing do because they don't violate the do no harm principle. Killing is killing, whether done barbarically or in a sophisticated manner as drone attacks.

The aesthetic difference doesn't make the act more or less moral, or the people committing it more or less 'developed.'

We can be developed or not in different domains - the West's culture seems to be degenerate to the rest of the world and vulgar (Cardi B, promiscuity etc)  - should that be equated with the Wests level of moral development also? Because a lot of the world view it as such and make the same mistake of equating the two - the same way we in the West equate the peoples of a region with their despotic leaders - who in fact are coup d'etat'ed into power and kept their by the West to serve industrial interests.

Edited October 20, 2023 by zazen

[Hello from Russia]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas has said they will release all hostages if Israel agrees to stop all bombing.

I guess they can stop for 1-3 days and see what happens, probably not a big deal for Israel army

Edited October 20, 2023 by Hello from Russia

[Jacob Morres]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is good:

 

20k views lol  gg

[Grateful Dead]

It's crazy to see people in my country celebrating the horrors of this war. Many people in Germany already think poorly of immigrants from the Middle East and are being pushed even further to the right now. For them it is like a confirmation and the right-wing party in Germany has already become significantly stronger in recent years…

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Grateful Dead said:

It's crazy to see people in my country celebrating the horrors of this war. Many people in Germany already think poorly of immigrants from the Middle East and are being pushed even further to the right now. For them it is like a confirmation and the right-wing party in Germany has already become significantly stronger in recent years…

The Islamic people see everything as a competition, the Islamic team against whatever team, and they cheer for their team. A way to cheer is to stab people downtown and stuff. For them everything is wounded pride, it is a primitive ideology, like that of the Christians of the year 1300. It is a problem for coexistence in Europe, at any time in Holland or France a party will win that has in it's program of banning mosques, considering Islam a toxic ideology, submission of women, etc, so The muslims will react, and perhaps there will be a very serious crisis

[Grateful Dead]

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The Islamic people see everything as a competition, the Islamic team against whatever team, and they cheer for their team. A way to cheer is to stab people downtown and stuff. For them everything is wounded pride, it is a primitive ideology, like that of the Christians of the year 1300. It is a problem for coexistence in Europe, at any time in Holland or France a party will win that has in it's program of banning mosques, considering Islam a toxic ideology, submission of women, etc, so The muslims will react, and perhaps there will be a very serious crisis

Well as fucked up as that sounds, I think you're right. This stuff has been brewing in Europe for decades and it seems like shit is becoming real now. There are so many problems emerging now that I think a major crisis in Europe is inevitable. 

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas has said they will release all hostages if Israel agrees to stop all bombing.

I don't think this is true? What is your source on this? From what I understand there was some sneaky misreporting (by mainstream news papers too), the condition is actually the same as it has been since the beginning, which is the release of thousands of palestinian prisoners.

So, this type of negotiation is not engaged with, simply because the good old "don't negotiate with terrorists" logic, which seems to hold up here.

 

Quote

Hamas has said it will not release the hostages until Israel ends its bombardment of Gaza, and only then in exchange for the release of 5,000 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, including women and children. Islamic Jihad has also said that it will not release hostages until Palestinian prisoners are freed.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/19/hamas-islamic-jihad-holding-hostages-war-crime

 

 

Zeihan says that a wider conflict is very, very unlikely:

 

 

Forensic evidence of atrocities committed is coming out:

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

Edited October 20, 2023 by Scholar

[Schizophonia]

@Breakingthewall

@Grateful Dead

Islam is a pretext, it's actually "Arab" tribalism, do you see a lot of Far Eastern Muslims worried about that? In black Africa?
Ditto for right-wing Westerners who intuitively support Israel, the real underlying reason is that they see Israel as a Western foothold in the Middle East, with a more or less white population (Ashkenazim).

It is therefore for many a civilizational and even racial war.

[Breakingthewall]

24 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

@Breakingthewall

@Grateful Dead

Islam is a pretext, it's actually "Arab" tribalism, do you see a lot of Far Eastern Muslims worried about that? In black Africa?
Ditto for right-wing Westerners who intuitively support Israel, the real underlying reason is that they see Israel as a Western foothold in the Middle East, with a more or less white population (Ashkenazim).

It is therefore for many a civilizational and even racial war.

There are many problems with the Islamic people in Mali, Nigeria and more places, although I doubt that they care about Israel. Many European jihadists are Moroccan, like those who blew up trains in Madrid in protest against the invasion of Iraq.

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I don't think this is true? What is your source on this?

It is true.

I saw video in which a reporter was speaking with a Hamas leader over the phone, live on air, and the Hamas leader agreed to let all the hostage ls go if the bombing is stopped. He said they would let them go within 1 hour. His words.

You can find it on YT.

Obviously it's unclear if he can be trusted. But it seems Hamas is open to negotiate buy Israel is not interested because they want their war.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is true.

I saw video in which a reporter was speaking with a Hamas leader over the phone, live on air, and the Hamas leader agreed to let all the hostage ls go if the bombing is stopped. He said they would let them go within 1 hour. His words.

You can find it on YT.

This is misleading because they won't tell you the actual conditions, which require the release of 5000 palestinian prisoners, as I showed you above.

Hamas is basically using a propaganda strategy, trying to frame it as if Israel was unreasonable and didn't care about the hostages.

[Happy Lizard]

@Breakingthewall you are speaking/generalizing about a vast number of people. How can you say this is not hate talk and/or prejudice? How do you think this help ?

[Hello from Russia]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is true.

I saw video in which a reporter was speaking with a Hamas leader over the phone, live on air, and the Hamas leader agreed to let all the hostage ls go if the bombing is stopped. He said they would let them go within 1 hour. His words.

You can find it on YT.

Obviously it's unclear if he can be trusted. But it seems Hamas is open to negotiate buy Israel is not interested because they want their war.

That's kinda twisted though

If they didn't attack Israel and take hostages in the first place, Israel wouldn't bomb them

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is misleading because they won't tell you the actual conditions, which require the release of 5000 palestinian prisoners, as I showed you above.

I'm just telling you what I heard. Whether you can trust Hamas is a separate matter.

Quote

Hamas is basically using a propaganda strategy, trying to frame it as if Israel was unreasonable and didn't care about the hostages.

That's a fair point.

But also, it seems Israel does not care about the hostages. They will not stop this war for those hostages. They want to wage their war and somehow magically save the hostages, which sounds ridiculous.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Grateful Dead]

I just listened to this and I like the perspectives shared here.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Happy Lizard said:

@Breakingthewall you are speaking/generalizing about a vast number of people. How can you say this is not hate talk and/or prejudice? How do you think this help ?

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

@Breakingthewall

@Grateful Dead

 

Of course there are many moderate Muslims, but it is a fact that the Muslim world is becoming radicalized, 10 years ago in Morocco there were less women with hoods than now. The normal Muslim, the average guy on the street, was more indifferent to religion and the repressive customs of Islam 25 years ago than today. I don't know what the cause is, I guess it's a mix between the Internet and wars.

Islam is a very clear religion that leaves no room for interpretation, it tells you what you have to do and warns you that otherwise you will go to hell, and if you obey you will go to paradise. Both are described explicitly, without abstractions. Islam is explicit, not abstract, so the internet has made many see what Islam really is, and many people believe in it and truly fear hell and desire paradise.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

saw video in which a reporter was speaking with a Hamas leader over the phone, live on air, and the Hamas leader agreed to let all the hostage ls go if the bombing is stopped. He said they would let them go within 1 hour. His

Imagine that they accept and free the hostages. after what? Israel has declared war on Hamas, it cannot stop it because of the hostages. Hamas knows that this proposal cannot be accepted and makes it to show public opinion the evil of Israel. hamas is run by very intelligent people it seems

Edited October 20, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Vrubel]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But also, it seems Israel does not care about the hostages. They will not stop this war for those hostages. They want to wage their war and somehow magically save the hostages, which sounds ridiculous.

You know nothing about the Israeli mentality 

Israel was used to having a hostage here or there and they usually exerted great effort and cost to get them back regardless of dead or alive. A dead Israeli was still worth at least 100 terrorists. But what is happening now is a whole new level of trauma that will ask of Israelis to readjust their paradigm on this whole matter. After this attack, a bus bombing seems like a playground wound. 

Israelis put a lot of value on life, this has to do with trauma, the fact that they're a small nation but also their quality of life is great and the young people are often very talented with a lot of potential. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

@Breakingthewall

Their was plenty of contextualisation and scholarship in Islamic history which made it a more reasoned religion and a thriving progressive one at its time, and plenty of interpretation (tafsir). 

Certain schools and strains of Islam which are very simplistic in understanding became popular and promoted heavily across the muslims world - particularly Wahhabism through petrodollar wealth that landed upon the Saudi's.

That, along with Western funding to fight against the soviets and the subsequent war on terror and destruction in the region further radicalised them. They were armed with a radical mind, now they had a justification to take up arms in service of their ideology. They politicised and militarised religious dogma.

The radicalising of the average muslim is very over blown however. Even at the height of ISIS, from the UK for example which as a muslim population of 3 million, the max estimate for ISIS fighters who had gone was 1'500.  Thats 0.05% of muslims, that get major representation in the media as equivalent to the muslims living in the West.

Wiki'' A more accurate source from the BBC estimates around 850 people from the UK had traveled to Iraq and Syria to support or fight for jihadist groups'' year 2014.

Edited October 20, 2023 by zazen