New War In Israel / Gaza

[ArcticGong]

 

Lying has consequences. 

[kenway]

 

[kenway]

4 hours ago, kenway said:

@Nivsch Please could you translate what this IDF solider is saying? I'm genuinely interested in his perspective. (For balance etc).

 

 

 

@Nivsch

To be clear: I genuinely would like to know what this guy is saying. Please don't take my tone too salty. You and I disagree, but you are still my brother.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, zazen said:

If Palestinians are stage red - barbaric, unreasonable and stupid like you say then why even try reasoning with them in the first place? Just give them a state and let them be. Their so stupid and dysfunctional their country will never become powerful enough to threaten Israel anyway rite?

That's some awful logic.

If you allow Stage Red, they will conquer you like Hitler or the Mongol hoards. The only thing stopping them is their own incompetence and disorganization. By giving them a state you enable them to organize. This is why ISIS was not allowed to have a state. Terrorists will keep organizing if you don't stop them.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's some awful logic.

If you allow Stage Red, they will conquer you like Hitler or the Mongol hoards. The only thing stopping them is their own incompetence and disorganization. By giving them a state you enable them to organize. This is why ISIS was not allowed to have a state. Terrorists will keep organizing if you don't stop them.

I wrote that tongue in cheek but relating it to the current conflict:

What differentiates a terrorist from a resistance group that uses terrorist tactics? What enables the existence of terrorists to even organise in the first place?

I can understand having to stop a group that are expansionist in their aspirations but what of a group who’s aspiration is localised to their native land and resisting occupation of it?

I think a nuanced distinction can be made between a native territorial dispute and a conquest of empire with expansionist ambitions.

The difference is in intent being one of a local resistance vs globalist conquest (which is what Hitler, Mongols and ISIS were)

What I wrote following that from the post is below for further context:

“In order to deal with barbarians you need to embody some of their values because they are incapable of embodying some of your 'higher' ones. They don't have rationality but have the law of the jungle which is that they respect strength and ruthlessness. And so you become what you despise and what your higher values go against in busying yourself in dealing with them - so why not leave them be rather than complain about them resisting when you pin them down to the floor through occupation, siege and blockade. 

I expect nothing less than for people to resist despite what spiral stage we colour code and paintball them with. Even a ant resists in order to survive. If animals resist to survive unwanted death then what of humans who have the conscience to be aware of their undignified treatment, oppression, being taken advantage of through unviable peace proposals and impending conditions of death imposed on them? There's nothing confusing about resistance, in fact it would be confusing for anyone not to. It would be a case study for such an alien reaction or lack of reaction if no resistance occurred.

It is probably in Israel's best interest to not take their cue from how America has dealt with the war on terror through bombardments. A chihuahua can't learn and act like the Pitbull it aspires to be. America has a geography blessed with vast seas on its sides, a ally to its North and a weak nation to its South that insulates it from its foreign adventures. It can go around bombarding regions and barely have any repercussion, in fact Europe bears the brunt of the cost via the refugee crises caused by these Wars.

However Israel acting that way endangers it in a way America acting that way doesn't. Israel sits by itself in a angered region. Israel's actions have enraged the global south and even domestic Westerners (its own allied nations). Even Western media outlets critique Israels actions as they are unable to keep up with propaganda that gets shred by the advent of social media and alternative media. Their are limits to Americas interests - they can't just bankroll the expulsion of 2.3million people and destruction of their homes with the current technology that allows the world to see it and Israel can't afford to lose America and its domestic support either.”

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@ArcticGong

2 hours ago, ArcticGong said:

 

Lying has consequences. 

   Appears Piers Morgan is weird, lying to our ears. Hear me now, this is propaganda, props pagan dads for false worship, would've swapped a for e for agenda.

   Feel this dear, between the ears, let the truth sear yo brain in this pyre, up here, to send ashes down the morgue with a spear.

   

[Nivsch]

@kenway Just a stupid soldier. Don't have to pay attention to everyone.

[How to be wise]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's some awful logic.

If you allow Stage Red, they will conquer you like Hitler or the Mongol hoards. The only thing stopping them is their own incompetence and disorganization. By giving them a state you enable them to organize. This is why ISIS was not allowed to have a state. Terrorists will keep organizing if you don't stop them.

Hamas had a state, and for 17 years there was relative peace. As for the October 7 attack, the principal motivation was probably the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Remember that Hamas was opposed to isis, and they fought isis sympathisers in the Gaza Strip.

[Nivsch]

@How to be wise Those 18 years has been used to build a terror empire in gaza. That is their life meaning. This is much deeper than just things that Israel does or doesn't.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

On 23/11/2023 at 3:44 PM, zazen said:

@BlueOak Well articulated.

@lina Nicely written. Sam Harris is correct in saying Islamism is a virus, but he wrongly conflates a lot with it and misunderstands the Muslim world which is funny as he's written a book on extremism with Majid Nawaz who was a ex-Islamist radical.

The difference between Palestine/Hamas and ISIS is that Hamas are a resistance movement that use terrorist tactics, with the goal being localised to their homeland. ISIS is a terrorist movement with the goal of Islamic globalism - all lands. Hamas are defending their homeland, ISIS aspire to dominate all lands. The former is a defensive movement at its core but with terrorist elements and tactics, the latter is a dominating expansionist movement with a radical interpretation of Islam at its core and terrorism as its main strategy rather than just a tool in the toolbox of tactics.

Every idea can become a ideology which can ferment extremist strains of itself. Islamist's are violent because human nature can be violent. That can take expression through any culture, context or on any continent. Nature doesn't change, the lens through which it unfolds does - the lens, vessel and human through which nature is nurtured.

Its easy to assume that once someone progresses through the stages of Spiral Dynamics, similar to a child maturing into an adult, they are immune to reverting to childlike behaviors or regressing physically like Benjamin Button. However, psychologically, such regression is still possible. People can be like children frozen in adult bodies, and behave animalistically whilst encased in human form. Humans are like Russian dolls that have a beast deep down within that can be visited.They can do the needful when needed to in order to survive.

The developed world otherizes groups they see as undeveloped yet don't see how they are capable of behaving in extreme ways they consider only undeveloped people capable of behaving in. They omit the regressive elements of human nature that revisit them and come in through the back door in unassuming ways. A lot of the time they’re not as moral or developed as they think, they're just in a position where they're safe enough to pretend to be.

Developed liberals can still have the capacity to terrorize and tribalize, they just terrorize and tribalize in the name of, for and around a different set of values. We can have stage green talking points and positions yet act those out through a stage red disposition and state of being. Likewise the US can have a white house and yet a black heart - the veneer doesn't always match the visceral.

Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us.  Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion act like psychic straitjackets. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn.

Now we are in a chicken or the egg situation where extreme terrorist elements exist. But is it that they are extreme innately or that circumstances made them so. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder.

Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more.

If Hamas are eradicated another group or faction will fill the power vacuum for resistance. You get rid of resistance by giving them nothing to resist in the first place ie occupation.

 

[Raze]

@Leo Gurathoughts on this?

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/

[zazen]

18 minutes ago, Raze said:

@Leo Gurathoughts on this?

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/

Good article. It mentioned Vietnam which reminded me of this clip - if Hamas have built anything like these tunnels I’m not sure.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

46 minutes ago, Raze said:

@Leo Gurathoughts on this?

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/

I'm not motivated to read that. I have enough information and analysis about this war.

Yes, obviously this war will create more terrorists than ever.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

The War on Terror Part II: The Terror Evolves

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder.

Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more.

If Hamas are eradicated another group or faction will fill the power vacuum for resistance. You get rid of resistance by giving them nothing to resist in the first place ie occupation.

 

   That's true in the long term. Although what we're see so far, it's Likely Israel and HAMAs are locked into eliminating the other, and the people of Palestine or Israel will suffer as long as HAMAs exists or Israel exists in the short term. Until Israel recognizes it's creating this problem for itself it will perpetually make the conditions for another terrorist group.

[How to be wise]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel.

That’s wrong. They want a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders. They have stated that so many times. 

[Raze]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Not that simple, see this response from Chomsky 

Quote

NOAM CHOMSKY: Very simple. First of all, Hamas charter means practically nothing. The only people who pay attention to it are Israeli propagandists, who love it. It was a charter put together by a small group of people under siege, under attack in 1988. And it’s essentially meaningless. There are charters that mean something, but they’re not talked about. So, for example, the electoral program of Israel’s governing party, Likud, states explicitly that there can never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. And they not only state it in their charter, that’s a call for the destruction of Palestine, explicit call for it. And they don’t only have it in their charter, you know, their electoral program, but they implement it. That’s quite different from the Hamas charter.

 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura but isn't it a little bit too ambitious from them to want to eliminate israel. like it sounds ridiculous that hamas would eliminate israel. it's like andrew tate vs leo gura when it comes to spirituality. 

[Nivsch]

@Raze Instead of cherry pick crazy extremists from the stands all the time like this thread is saturated with, try to just listen to the players themselves. Leaders and even more so citizens. This will help much more.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch